Carriage identification (Fairford Branch, 1907)

[Forward!]

Hi all,

 

This picture depicts an excursion leaving Witney (Oxfordshire) station in circa 1908. Can anyone identify the general type of carriages on the right with the triple row of ventilators?  I'm starting to backdate my Fairford Branch layout to the Edwardian period, and I'm still getting my head around Churchward era rolling stock!

 

http://www.fairfordbranch.co.uk/Witney_Station_Edwardian.jpg

 

Will

[Wickham Green too]

I suspect the centre 'ventilator' of each triple is actually a gas lamp top - a smaller version of those on the foreground coach. There seem to be eleven such triples on the second coach which I'd guess would be a 70' non-corridor third : were there such things or were all seventy-footers gangwayed ? ( There's no suggestion of lavatories which would have one offset vent - and there's no suggestion of a water filler.)

[BernardTPM]

At that date with that shape of roof would likely be 'Toplight' coaches which appeared in non-corridor as well as the better known corridor versions.

[Wickham Green too]

Indeed - and there were, actually a few* 70' non-gangwayed 'Toplight' Composites ( Dia C97 ) with eleven compartments ........ but they weren't built 'til 1913 and ran in electrically-lit four-car set trains with D55 Brake thirds : so they can be discounted !

 

* eight to be precise : four pairs

[Kris]

The GWR Concertina coaches had triple vents (I believe) and at 1906 would fit the time frame. Some of these were 70ft. 

[Wickham Green too]

Wasn't the whole point of the 'Concertina' design to keep the over-handles width down because they were 70' stock ?

[Compound2632]

How confident are you of the c. 1908 date of the photo? Is the date of extension of the canopy known?

[Wickham Green too]

The other question is what is actually going on ?

 

The crowd seems to have disembarked* from the short train on the left - which has a loco on the up end, suggesting it's come from Fairford. That's not very likely and it certainly couldn't have accessed the station while the other train was where we see it !

I guess that we've got two portions of the same train which has arrived behind another loco ( under the photographer ? ) : the longer portion has been emptied and placed in the down platform, then the rear portion shunted into the up side as seen. ( I don't think Six Bells Junction goes back to 1908-ish, unfortunately. )

 

*There seem to be more passengers interested in the exit rather than in the train - so I don't think the excursion's 'leaving'.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Wickham Green too

[Forward!]

37 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

The other question is what is actually going on ?

 

The crowd seems to have disembarked* from the short train on the left - which has a loco on the up end, suggesting it's come from Fairford. That's not very likely and it certainly couldn't have accessed the station while the other train was where we see it !

I guess that we've got two portions of the same train which has arrived behind another loco ( under the photographer ? ) : the longer portion has been emptied and placed in the down platform, then the rear portion shunted into the up side as seen. ( I don't think Six Bells Junction goes back to 1908-ish, unfortunately. )

 

*There seem to be more passengers interested in the exit rather than in the train - so I don't think the excursion's 'leaving'.

 

I assumed the same- two portions of the same train being juggled around to let passengers disembark at Witney's short platform.

 

The photograph is from Martin Loader's Fairford Branch website, which is very well researched, so I have no reason to question the 1908 date, although I cannot make a more accurate terminus ante quem for the photo as the building was extended much later, in the early 1920s, and the OS map editions offer no way of narrowing it down. It was in it's original form in 1921. I have no reason to doubt 1908. The passenger's dress certainly looks more like the first decade of the 20th century, and I wouldn't peg the fashions as anything later than the 1910s.

 

The thought of building, painting and lining a rake of concertina carriages fills me with a sense of dread!

 

Will

Edited July 21, 2021 by Forward!

[Compound2632]

Counting lamp tops again, I make ten on the nearest carriage. Comparing with the clerestory carriages, I doubt these are 70 ft carriages - was there a 60 ft 10-compartment third class non-corridor elliptical roof type by the late noughties?

Edited July 21, 2021 by Compound2632

[Kris]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Counting lamp tops again, I make ten on the nearest carriage. Comparing with the clerestory carriages, I doubt these are 70 ft carriages - was there a 60 ft 10-compartment third class non-corridor elliptical roof type by the late noughties?

There was a 58ft non corridor, the Dia C25. The rain strips and destination board holders of coaches 2, 3 & 4 (of the coaches in question) would match the C25. The first coach would appear to be something different however, with only the single rain strip and no destination board holders. 

[Wickham Green too]

You could be right about the number of vents - my eyesight gets very squiffy at the far end of the coach !

Twenty C25s were built in 1905 so would fit the bill .......... unfortunately, while they were among the earliest 'Toplights', I can find no reference to their workings in Michael Harris ( 1985 edition ).

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Twenty C25s were built in 1905 so would fit the bill .......... unfortunately, while they were among the earliest 'Toplights', I can find no reference to their workings in Michael Harris ( 1985 edition ).

 

Perhaps because, as high-capacity non-corridor non-lavatory thirds, they went straight into the pool of excursion carriages?

[Wickham Green too]

Personally, I'd've made sure excursionists had plenty of lavatories ...............