Cenarth OO Micro

[ipatrick]

Hello. I’m new to this forum. After a long time away from the hobby i decided to return to the world of model railways. I have a plan I’ve been working out for the last month or two for a micro layout that will fit in a limited enough space. A scenic area of roughly 5ft 2 inches x 1ft 6inches, and a removable cassette/fiddle yard area. As I’m on a budget and considering this is a tester layout I’ve decided at present I’ll be using some of my old set track. Hopefully it will give me platform to try out techniques new and old. The layout itself is inspired by the branch lines of rural west Wales (More specifically the Teifi Valley lines) and the period will be early BR days. The station is loosely inspired by an idea of the GWR extending beyond Newcastle Emlyn to reach Cardigan, however plans where halted when they reached Cenarth. Which might explain the spartan station layout. (But largely it’s fictitious, and more about capturing atmosphere)

The track plan is inspired from other micro layout plans and some real life prototypes across the Uk and Ireland (ie. The run-around loop over the bridge is a nod to Aberayron). Beyond the bridge and scenic area (using some imagination) is possibly where loco shed and other facilities are located. I’d also like to say while I have some knowledge built up over the years i still consider myself a learner and a beginner. Things like signaling, location of points, sidings etc. are still a bit of a mystery for me. The track plan and illustration (Apologies if it’s a bit rough) are there to give an idea of what I’m trying to achieve. Any suggestions are welcome. Many thanks.

Edited August 13, 2021 by ipatrick

[tractionman]

Nice artwork there, I guess the next step is to plonk some track down in the space you have and see how it looks, and if any tweaking is required. Perhaps introduce a gentle curve rather than having the trackwork parallel to the baseboard edge?

 

Good luck with the build. Welcome back to the modelling world!

 

All the best,

 

Keith

[bazzer42]

I think Aberayron is a magical site. The small signal box at the end of the platform and the mish mash station cry out to be modelled. I have bought wills kits to bash into a tribute at some point, as long as the passage of time slows down for me!

Edited August 13, 2021 by bazzer42
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[ipatrick]

Agree Bazzer42. As i've heard a few folks say look at the real thing for inspiration. It's funny sometimes what compromises where actually made in real life.  

I think it allows for something interesting in the small space, and gives me the chance to model water, something i've never tried. Will also look at adding a bit more of a curve all things permitting. 

 

Thanks

Ian

Edited August 13, 2021 by ipatrick

[Stubby47]

Great 1st post and welcome to the forum.

 

Looking forwards to seeing how this develops.

 

 

[Harlequin]

Hi ipatrick,

 

Have you thought about continuing the loop off-scene alongside the main line?

 

Your loco has to leave the scene to run round anyway so there's no loss of visual operations. You could swap from loop to main and vice-versa just by moving a cassette - the only downside being a bit more manual involvement in run round movements.

 

It would make the station look bigger, make more sense of the double track bridge and more strongly imply that some facilities are off-scene.

 

It would save a turnout, and the space occupied by that turnout, which would allow you to move the river further left if you wanted, thus allowing the platform and goods area to be a little longer.

 

Your sketches suggest Settrack turnouts. They might be necessary given the compact size but it might be worth investigating other solutions just to see if its possible to improve on Settrack.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Harlequin

[CameronL]

Hi ipatrick,

 

Love it. There's a lot of scenic potential in the river area for such a small layout. How do you plan to make the trains disappear off-scene?  Tunnel, road bridge (with or without bus) or trees as a vision-blocker? 

Track-plan-wise, I would suggest one small change. If you leave the goods siding diverging from the short siding at the end of the run round rather than turning in to run parallel to it you can put the goods facilities in between these two tracks, which gives you two lines for unloading rather than one unloading line and a siding to park stock, giving this area of the layout more of a "goods yard" than "goods siding"air about it. The water crane could stay where it is or  move to the end of the platform so that engines could top up as soon as they arrived. 

(You could still have two trains at once on the layout - an Up goods assembled and ready to go waiting for a Down passenger to arrive before it can depart, or vice-versa).

 

Best wishes

 

Cam

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by CameronL
Added a bit

[ThomasG]

Hi Patrick!

 

First of all, I would like to mention that I really like your illustration!
The track plan is a good basis and allows a lot of possibilities and fun.

However, I would have one suggestion: You could move the switch in the foreground to the left (so also the cattledock), but otherwise leave its track as it is.

The whole thing about 20cm / 8 inches, so that the switch comes directly after the bridge.
Then you can connect the goods shed to the middle track.

 

The length of your tracks remains exactly the same, but the middle track then has a loading and unloading point. In addition, there is another space next to the cattledock. For example for a coal bunker.

I am very curious to see how things will continue here, have fun and success with the implementation!

 

Best regards,

 ThomasG 

 

[ipatrick]

Thanks folks for the comments and suggestions. Harlequin, I think I might actually consider the loop going off scene particularly if it allows more scenic space. The settrack situation is more a budget thing at the moment given this is the first attempt in a long time, but we are looking at going down the streamline route. Although I’ll have to do my research into building a moving cassette.

 

CameronL, the plan at the moment is to use trees as an off scene vision blocker. The area itself from what I’ve seen in photos looks very picturesque, woodland hills etc. I did read on one source, that a major reason for not extending the line beyond Newcastle Emlyn was that it had become recognised as an area of natural beauty.

 

I’ll rework my track plan a bit in regards to goods yard scenario . Thanks also ThomasG for the input,  I was wondering where I could put a coalbunker.

 

Just one question and excuse my ignorance here. Would extending the loop out of vision mean removing the semaphore signal? Would like to include one but not veer too far from reality. As I said placement of signals and such things isn’t a strong point of mine.

 

Thanks again

Ian

Edited August 13, 2021 by ipatrick

[ThomasG]

10 minutes ago, ipatrick said:

Just one question and excuse my ignorance here. Would extending the loop out of vision mean removing the semaphore signal. Would like to include one but not veer too far from reality. As I said placement of signals and such things isn’t a strong point of mine.

Probably yes, but I'm not familiar with the British (signal-) standard - I'm from Germany.

However, I (!) Believe that it is not necessary to move the loop outside.

I am not sure what would be gained from that. In order to bypass a passenger train and shunt freight cars, the Fiddleyard must of course still be included.

 

 

Regards,

 ThomasG 

[Harlequin]

29 minutes ago, ipatrick said:

 

Just one question and excuse my ignorance here. Would extending the loop out of vision mean removing the semaphore signal. Would like to include one but not veer too far from reality. As I said placement of signals and such things isn’t a strong point of mine.

 

Thanks again

Ian

I think you could have your main starting signal at the end of the platform and imagine an advanced starter off scene, where the loop ends.

 

[ipatrick]

Thanks for these suggestions. Glad i signed up, gives a fresh perspective.

[CameronL]

Hi again.

 

One more thing occurs to me. Now you have a cunning plan to re-jig the goods yard to cope with the three Cs (cargo, coal and cows - or in Wales maybe that should be CCS for "sheep"). That gives you a variety of freight vehicles you could run - vans, sheeted opens and flats, coal and cattle wagons. 

 

But if you want a bit more variety you could put another point at the lefthand end of the run round loop, which would create another siding, This could be continued off-scene to lead  to some form of industry which would also require its own wagons. 

 

 

Your choice of period of early BR still gives you a variety of rail-served industries. It could be a dairy or creamery (milk was transported on BR until the late 1960s), a scrapyard or light engineering works, or even as you're siting your layout in Wales a small colliery. The excellent Cwm Bach O Gauge layout shows a colliery linked to a small terminus in a very limited space. The visible section of this layout is 10' x 2' in O gauge, which would fit into a space 5'8" x 14" in OO.  That's slightly smaller in area than your own plan.

 

Of course a local colliery might mean that you didn't need coal facilities at your station, as local supply would be by land sales at the colliery. However, the short siding at the end of the loop could be furnished with an end-loading dock, which would allow you to run Mogos and flat wagons as well. There would also be a need for pit props up to the colliery (transported standing vertically in open wagons) and the odd van with various other supplies.

 

I'm speaking as a paid-up member of SHA (that's Shunt Hogs Anonymous). I love a good shunt and I just saw a way to add a little more operational fun to your plan. 

 

Feel free to ignore me completely.

 

Best wishes and looking forward to seeing how this developes.

 

Cam 

Edited August 15, 2021 by CameronL
Added a bit

[ipatrick]

Thanks very much CameronL. We'll have a think about it.  Time permitting i might post a slightly reworked version of this plan over the next week. Would like to keep some of the simplicity of the initial design too (Given my level of skill).

Contemplating investing in some streamline points and flexi track. As i say we're on a budget, so you might see a setrack and steamline version. Then there's the Code 100/75 thing. (Code 75 does look great when all is said) But I have some old rolling stock (1990's) locos that i'd like to use

and wonder would it be a  big step jumping into code 75 at my level. On the question of points and turnouts for this type of branch line layout, If we where to go the streamline route i presume the rule is always use the largest radius point that will fit? 

Sorry for all the questions. I just though it's worth asking before i dive into the unknown. May stick with setrack also just to get modelling when i can. Anybody have experience with trying to deal with these compromises?

 

Thanks again, everyone. Ye may find i'll ask a lot of questions over the next while.

 

Ian

Edited August 16, 2021 by ipatrick

[ls91]

Hi Ian, I'm relatively new to this all too, but what I would say regarding the streamlined and set track points is that if you find you need a point or two you can always mix and match with whatever set track you already have. My current micro does just that with streamline 3 way on one end, and set track the other end for the loop around. You just have to cut a straight length to fit between the streamline points to keep the center lines running parallel to the set track. The streamlined give less kickout and overhang which is always a bonus, but I too am keen to make use of the set track I have rather than spend money unnecessarily on points I dont really need.

[ls91]

Hi Ian, I'm relatively new to this all too, but what I would say regarding the streamlined and set track points is that if you find you need a point or two you can always mix and match with whatever set track you already have. My current micro does just that with streamline 3 way on one end, and set track the other end for the loop around. You just have to cut a straight length to fit between the streamline points to keep the center lines running parallel to the set track. The streamlined give less kickout and overhang which is always a bonus, but I too am keen to make use of the set track I have rather than spend money unnecessarily on points I dont really need.

[Karhedron]

On 15/08/2021 at 11:15, CameronL said:

Your choice of period of early BR still gives you a variety of rail-served industries. It could be a dairy or creamery (milk was transported on BR until the late 1960s)

 

Milk from West Wales lasted until 1980  although the line from Carmarthen towards Aberystwyth closed in 1973. Milk was big business in the area. Rail served dairies existed at Pont Llanio and Felin Fach and there was a large cheese factory at Newcastle Emlyn that used to dispatch via rail too.

[CameronL]

Just now, Karhedron said:

 

Milk from West Wales lasted until 1980  although the line from Carmarthen towards Aberystwyth closed in 1973. Milk was big business in the area. Rail served dairies existed at Pont Llanio and Felin Fach and there was a large cheese factory at Newcastle Emlyn that used to dispatch via rail too.

Don't know whether to reply with "Thanks" or "Informative/Useful", so Thanks, that was informative and useful.

 

Best wishes

 

Cam 

[Karhedron]

You are welcome.

 

If you would like any information or photos on the milk services around Carmarthen, I am happy to provide.

[ipatrick]

Hello Again. We’ve found some time to update the track plan slightly based on the very helpful feedback last week. I made an attempt at doing a revised version using flexitrack and streamline medium radius points (I printed out some templates from online to measure up). Added a slight curve and made the siding veer away so there is now a loading and unloading point. Also included are the cattle dock and an area for coal. The runaround loop now runs off scene and will lead to a moving cassette. Again apologies if the drawings are a bit rough. There’s a settrack version also, although I’m swaying more to investing in some flexi track (For the scenic area given the size of the layout). Still debating over code 75/100. Suggestions again are welcome.

 

Thanks again

 

Ian

Ian

[Harlequin]

6 hours ago, ipatrick said:

Hello Again. We’ve found some time to update the track plan slightly based on the very helpful feedback last week. I made an attempt at doing a revised version using flexitrack and streamline medium radius points (I printed out some templates from online to measure up). Added a slight curve and made the siding veer away so there is now a loading and unloading point. Also included are the cattle dock and an area for coal. The runaround loop now runs off scene and will lead to a moving cassette. Again apologies if the drawings are a bit rough. There’s a settrack version also, although I’m swaying more to investing in some flexi track (For the scenic area given the size of the layout). Still debating over code 75/100. Suggestions again are welcome.

 

Thanks again

 

Ian

Ian

 

The Streamline version looks great! And your perspective sketch seems to suggest much more space than before. Really nice!

 

Two small points:

1. In the real world you need to allow room for a lorry to back up to the loading doors of your goods shed. Most modellers do that by leaving as much yard space as possible beside the shed but you don't have that luxury! You could:
   1. just ignore it and let the sheer character of the model dazzle people into not seeing that small discrepancy.
   2. Have a goods shed with loading doors in the end so that lorry access is mostly off-scene on the right (see Henllan station).
   3. Remove the coal staithes and just form a rough crossing over the siding for lorries to get the the doors where you've shown them. (This relates to point 2 below.)
2. Most commonly GWR yards didn't have coal staithes against a siding. Wagons would be unloaded direct into lorries and the coal either delivered or stored elsewhere. (Makes the siding more flexible, of course, because it can be used to unload anything.) But that's not true of all GWR yards, so you can have staithes if you want them.

 

P.S. Code 75 is no more difficult to use than Code 100 and as you said it looks better (especially in the kind of close-up photos this design is likely to elicit).

 

P.P.S. The turnout to the goods siding is shown as curved in both routes. That makes things lightly more tricky. You've either got to bend a straight turnout, which is possible, or tweak the design. You could consider using a Large Y if the angles work out.

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Harlequin

[ipatrick]

Many thanks Harlequin. 

[CameronL]

Hi again. 

 

Love the curvaceous version with a goods yard, and the perspective sketch just oozes atmosphere. May I make a suggestion? Put a cattle dock / end loading platform combo as per the excellent Elmore of this parish on the short siding at the end of the run round loop, then the first foot and a bit of the longer siding is goods platform / shed and the last bit is for coal unloading and others (without the staithes, as Harlequin said). This way the coal wagons which can be unloaded slowly are tucked away, the goods shed has better access for road vehicles and the cattle dock is perfect for a quick turnaround (which livestock need). Making it an end loading dock as well just increases the variety.

 

As always, feel free to ignore. 

 

Best wishes

 

Cam

[ipatrick]

Thanks Cam

 

The suggestions are all helpful. If it helps make things look as realistic as possible given the small space. 

 

Thanks

Ian

[bazzer42]

I use code 75 and mix it with peco bullhead.  It is as easy code 100 but I have found rough handling of 75 points can cause the chairs to break on the lead in. Just something I have noticed, it hasn't put me off and I am using the same combination on my latest build.  I may even use code 100 in the fiddle yard using peco converter tracks.

PS  like the revised design

Edited August 20, 2021 by bazzer42
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