Boat Trains

[KingEdwardII]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

there wasn't a single cruise ship (they're hardly 'liners' in the proper sense of the term) that went into and out of Southampton on the same day (unless they had arrived in the middle of the night when I wasn't looking

That's is exactly what they do - arrive (very) early morning, ready to disembark passengers immediately after breakfast and then clean and restock the ship ready to accept passengers for the next cruise in the afternoon, typically with an early evening departure. As an example, P&O "Iona" does this on March 19th this year, completing a cruise to the Med and then starting a cruise to the Canary Islands on that one day.

 

I remember being up at dawn to see us sail up the Solent on Queen Mary 2 on a trip from New York. We were fortunate in having a clear cloudless day to welcome us home. We were in the middle of a group of 3 ships arriving at the same time, which made for a grand view as we made the tight turn just off Cowes.

 

Southampton handles an exceptional number of passenger ships by turning them around in 1 day - the same berth can be used by perhaps 4 ships between a Friday and a Monday (inclusive). Or at least this happened pre-Covid.

 

PS. Queen Mary 2 really is a liner in the old sense, being built to journey across the North Atlantic between Southampton and New York - and deal with all the bad weather that involves. We hit a gale mid Atlantic and I went up to the observation area behind the bridge and it was notable how little movement there was despite the mountainous seas outside. I can agree that most other cruise ships are not like this, but they are built with different aims. Still, if you have the time and the money, it is the most wonderful way to travel across the Atlantic - a special treat for my wife, she had been longing to sail on a "Queen" between the States and Britain for many years.

 

Yours, Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

for something like ocean liners, or container ships, and given the ginormous capital cost of such beasts, its well worth going faster, and using more fuel to do so, to avoid buying another one

The cruise liners are generally scheduled to travel much more slowly than top speed - the itineraries are built that way.

 

So the Queen Mary 2 sailings between Southampton and New York are scheduled for 7 days each way - so always leaving on the same day from each port. QM2 could complete the crossing in 5 days, but that takes more fuel and would not fit with a regular schedule.

 

On a cruise with the P&O "Arcadia" through the Panama Canal, we had an interesting journey. After sailing away from Panama City towards our next destination in Guatemala, we had been going for about 8 hours when there was an announcement that we would be returning to Panama City as a passenger had had a heart attack and needed treatment they could not provide on board. The captain ran the speed up to maximum, which was truly entertaining, if a little noisy and rough. This had to be done also once we left Panama City for the second time, in order to catch up on our schedule. I suspect that a lot more fuel got used than normal on that trip.

 

Just for fun, once we got to Guatemala, there were the usual side trips to see various parts of that country - all of which ended up being ended early because one of the many volcanoes there decided to erupt and threaten the road we had to use to get back to the port. We heard that the road did indeed get closed not long after we sailed that evening.

 

Yours, Mike.

[The Johnster]

More ship-watching memories from a family holiday in Swanage, 1964, including United States, on a flat calm evening with the setting sun picking out those amazing funnels, and both the Queens, Elizabeth inbound and Mary out.  You could see the 'bone in her teeth' bow waves getting bigger as the ships cleared Calshot and began to work up to speed.  Great stuff, saw Saxonia or Sylvania, not sure now which, as well.  It was probably this holiday that started me off with Minic ships!

 

Guest house overlooking the station as well, mostly BR standards and I don't recall M7s but there must have been.  One air-smoothed pacific on the Saturday, presumably ACE portion from Waterloo.

 

Cruise ships adjust their speeds to arrive at ports at convenient times for the shore excursions, breakfast, day out on the island or whatever, back in time for dinner, sail evening and overnight, but no need to arrive at the next port too early.  Father had American friends who visited in 1961, crossing both ways on the Bremen and being landed at Southampton by tender.

Edited January 25, 2022 by The Johnster

[Nearholmer]

4 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

The cruise liners are generally scheduled to travel much more slowly than top speed - the itineraries are built that way.

 

Thats the difference between selling transport, even if it is luxury transport, and selling travel. Interesting reading about how shipping lines tried to combine the two offerings as they transitioned from one market to the other in the 1960s, and how it was only a partial success.

 

We've only been on one cruise, chosen as a holiday when my good lady was carrying our youngest, because it would be less strenuous than our then usual holidays. Beautiful ship, excellent service, but definitely not my thing at all, too much like handing over the keys of life to somebody else for the best part of three weeks. 

 

And, all of this has made me remember something from infants school, so not exactly recent. We spent one half term "sailing to Australia". We didn't actually leave the classroom, except for lifeboat drill and PT, so far as I recall, but the entire six weeks of lessons was conducted as a real-time trip to Aus, with excursions to various countries en-route, notably what seemed like ages in The Holy Land, because Miss XYZ was very religious, had been there more than once, and had lots of slides she couldn't resist showing us. Must have been leading up to Easter, because she proudly exhibited a picture of where "Our Dear Lord was crucified, without a city wall".

Edited January 25, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Derekl]

On 24/01/2022 at 11:28, Compound2632 said:

Whereas the Union Castle Line's weekly sailings for Cape Town required a fleet of at least five liners, it would seem. But I suppose with less competition, they ran at the most economic speed.

 

Union Castle had two services to Cape Town - the Southampton mail-boats which did the trip in 10 days, calling at Las Palmas en route (one famously managed to ground itself there).

 

The other service was from Tilbury Docks and ran to Rotterdam, Las Palmas and Cape Town, taking 14 days. I went to South Africa on that service (Durban Castle) in December 1956 (aged 5, but I do have some memories). I suspect it was cheaper which is why we were on it.

 

I think both services carried on up the South African coast, calling at Port Elizabeth, East London and Durban, so the turn around times would not reflect those on the New York crossings.

 

A post above mentions the Dominion Monarch - my late mother and part family went out to South Africa just after WW2 on the ship. It went via the Suez Canal and they alighted at Durban. She had fond memories of the trip - she must have been 14 or 15 at the time.

[johnofwessex]

On 24/01/2022 at 13:10, Nearholmer said:

When I was about ten, a guy who lived locally and worked for Union Cadtle gave me a nameplate and crest, maybe about three feet long, from one of their vessels, which I think was of the kind that were displayed at each landing in a stairwell. It was on my bedroom wall, along with a huge ‘red duster’ that came from someone else, but goodness knows what happened to it. The irritating thing is that I can’t remember the name of the boat it was from, except that it was something South African!

 

SA Vaal?

[Nearholmer]

I don't think so.

 

When I look at the list of their ships, there are several candidates that were scrapped or sold in the late 50s and early 60s, and from which it could have been lifted by a crew member, or even given to a crew member as a legitimate souvenir, but TBH none of them ring a bell! I shall have to ask my mother if she remembers it.

[johnofwessex]

My oldest sons grandfather went to North America as a student in the 60's

 

Outward might have been to Canada but back was on the Queen Mary.

 

Due to delays leavng New York she made the fastest post war Eastbound crossing and ran like the proverbial tram with square wheels.

 

 

[Michael Crofts]

On 24/01/2022 at 17:20, The Johnster said:

In 1966 I was fortunate enough to go on an educational cruise aboard British India's Devonia

Me too, in 1965.

 

[The Johnster]

Yes, that’s her.  Designed originally as a troopship I believe, and the bunks were plenty big and comfy enough for 14 year olds. Teachers were in the old army officers cabins.  Sailed from Cardiff (Sunday night?), called 2 days at Lisbon, day at Malaga (bus trip to Alhambra palace in Granada, 2 days Vigo, return to Liverpool (Saturday morning, coach ride home, long old schlep in those pre-motorway days, ‘bout 8 hours via Chester, Shrewsbury, Hereford), October 1966. 
 

Loved every second of it.  Amazing amount of freedom aboard the ship, and on the second days at Lisbon and Vigo ‘free time’.  Spent second evening in Lisbon drinking bottled beer in a street caf, warm as a good British summer, listening to live Fado with my mates, thinking we had to be the most sophisticated kids on the planet, been swimming at Estoril earlier in the day.  Wasn’t bovvered about going to the Alhambra, far too cool a teenager for that sort if nonsense, blown away when I saw it!  Following morning on deck for passage of Straits of Gibraltar, chummed up with local kids in Vigo for beach barbecue, mostly sardines but they’ve never tasted so good before or since.  We’d paired off with a bunch of Bristol girls by that time.  
 

Everbody had a shopping list from their ‘rents for booze and ciggies in Vigo, most of us came off the ship in Liverpool struggling under the weight and clinking loudly; customs never batted an eyelid thought it was pretty obvious. 

Lot of experiences none of could have ever have had in any other way, don’t tell me there’s a better approach to any city in the world than Lisbon from the sea up the Tagus on a sunny morning* (beat the pants off Liverpool on a foggy one…). 
 

 

*Istanbul is probably pretty spectacular as well.  Sydney, San Francisco, meh, once you’re under the bridges it’s all over really, isn’t it? 
 

[Steamport Southport]

On 21/01/2022 at 23:53, Andy Kirkham said:

I came across this brochure for a boat train named the Empress Voyager.

https://open.library.ubc.ca/viewer/chungtext/1.0372007#p0z-5r0F:

It is entitled "Your journey to Euston on the Canadian Pacific boat train Empress Voyager owned and operated by Bristish Railways"

 

This seems to suggest that the train was chartered by Canadian Pacific, so that presumably the shipping line would have sold the tickets rather than BR.

 

Is this how boat trains were usually organized?

 

Yes, you would often buy your tickets from the company or a travel agent rather than railway station.

 

Also the reason why some "boat" trains had three classes to match the three classes that were still used on some ships.

 

In the example above the trains didn't go to the BR station at Liverpool Lime Street they went directly to the MDHB station at Riverside. Unfortunately demolished a few years back. Would have made a very good transport museum.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_riverside/

 

At the time of that leaflet the ships doing the CP route were the "Empresses" and there was 26 Class 40s dedicated to the Liverpool trains and they apparently always tried to get one of the correctly named locomotives to pull the relevant train. Even trying to match the loco to the ship if possible.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_40#The_named_40s

 

It was all part of a last ditch effort to stave off air travel, but the Boeing 747 was the final nail in the coffin in the early 1970s.

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

It was all part of a last ditch effort to stave off air travel, but the Boeing 747 was the final nail in the coffin in the early 1970s.

 

When I was at the National Physical Laboratory, I came across an old staff magazine, c. 1967 I think. This reported staff visits abroad - conferences etc. Three had been to the US, two flew, one had taken the boat - but he was in the Ship Division:

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Compound2632

[Michael Crofts]

Andy Kirkham's original question was: 'Is this how boat trains were usually organized?' and my answer is, no, not "usually", because I can think of 5 kinds of boat trains, there may have been others.

1. Trains chartered by a shipping company and available only to their passengers (but I don't know whether the passengers were issued with ordinary railway tickets by the booking agent, or vouchers). My recollection is that such trains were principally to and from Southampton but I can't remember why I think this.
2. Trains operated by a railway company specially to connect with the railway company's own ships. Extracts from Edwardian Enterprise - GWR 1900-1910 (Norris, Beale, Lewis, Wild Swan) Re. the new Fishguard-Rosslare service, p. 15:- Boat trains left Paddington at 8:45am and 8:45pm each taking 5 1/2 hrs to Fishguard where they arrived in time to work the equivalent return service. The speed of handling passengers' baggage and mails was a matter of great pride to the company, no more than 15 minutes being allowed between the arrival of the train and the sailing time of the ship, and vice versa. New coaching stock was built for the trains which carried nameboards in gold lettering on a red ground.....' Based on my own travels in the 1950s and '60s I think that through tickets would have been issued by the railway company. 
3. Trains operated by a railway company to connect with a shipping company's services. From the same book, p. 19: 'But there were bigger prizes to be won in the form of Cunard liners on the eastward run from New York to Liverpool.... The first call of a Cunard liner was the R.M.S. Mauretania on Monday 30 August 1909.... the big ship arrived in the bay at 1:20pm and was at anchor for no more than 40 minutes but this was sufficient to enable a special train with the mails to leave at 2:08pm. Special passenger trains followed at 2:53pm and 3:05pm, reaching Paddington in 4hrs 35mins and 4hrs 51mins respectively... (worked by pairs of 4-4-0s to Cardiff, thence by Stars). I have no idea whether passengers used through tickets issued by the shipping company, or bought tickets for the service on board from the Purser's office, but one thing I'm sure of, there wouldn't have been queues at Fishguard Harbour booking office to buy railway tickets! This was the service which the GWR marketed in co-operation with the ocean liners as the fastest connection between New York and Brussels, Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Berlin.
4. Ordinary service trains timed to connect with shipping services, principally ferries. Most passengers would have had through tickets because even if they just turned up at the railway booking office (eg: Liverpool Street for the Harwich-Hoek van Holland service) they could buy a through ticket to principal destinations across Europe and the near East. These trains were also open to passengers using them for journeys which had nothing to do with the ferry services unless the train was by-passing the town station and going straight to the dock station (is that what happened at Weymouth?).
5. Ferry services where the train actually rolled on and off the ship much as road vehicles do now. I travelled on these services between London-Paris, also when crossing Denmark, and somewhere  else I can't recall. I had ordinary train tickets - and for overnight services IIRC these were made out for the class of accommodation (sleeping compartment, couchette, or standard seat).

It occurs to me that http://www.transport-ticket.org.uk/ would have a lot of information about this, but only members can access the website.

[62613]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Yes, that’s her.  Designed originally as a troopship I believe, and the bunks were plenty big and comfy enough for 14 year olds. Teachers were in the old army officers cabins.  Sailed from Cardiff (Sunday night?), called 2 days at Lisbon, day at Malaga (bus trip to Alhambra palace in Granada, 2 days Vigo, return to Liverpool (Saturday morning, coach ride home, long old schlep in those pre-motorway days, ‘bout 8 hours via Chester, Shrewsbury, Hereford), October 1966. 
 

Loved every second of it.  Amazing amount of freedom aboard the ship, and on the second days at Lisbon and Vigo ‘free time’.  Spent second evening in Lisbon drinking bottled beer in a street caf, warm as a good British summer, listening to live Fado with my mates, thinking we had to be the most sophisticated kids on the planet, been swimming at Estoril earlier in the day.  Wasn’t bovvered about going to the Alhambra, far too cool a teenager for that sort if nonsense, blown away when I saw it!  Following morning on deck for passage of Straits of Gibraltar, chummed up with local kids in Vigo for beach barbecue, mostly sardines but they’ve never tasted so good before or since.  We’d paired off with a bunch of Bristol girls by that time.  
 

Everbody had a shopping list from their ‘rents for booze and ciggies in Vigo, most of us came off the ship in Liverpool struggling under the weight and clinking loudly; customs never batted an eyelid thought it was pretty obvious. 

Lot of experiences none of could have ever have had in any other way, don’t tell me there’s a better approach to any city in the world than Lisbon from the sea up the Tagus on a sunny morning* (beat the pants off Liverpool on a foggy one…). 
 

 

*Istanbul is probably pretty spectacular as well.  Sydney, San Francisco, meh, once you’re under the bridges it’s all over really, isn’t it? 
 

Have to disagree about Sydney. First trip J/E on a BP "Birdie" boat, we went up the harbour on Boxing Day 1974. As I was on the 8 - 12, and it was afternoon, I had a grandstand view from the monkey island; it's something I haven't forgotten; a gloriously warm, sunny day, Sydney - Hobart yacht race getting going, the Opera House, under the bridge, and there was Garden Island with the RAN on its way to Darwin, which had just been flattened by a typhoon. To a very impressionable 21 - year old,you couldn't beat it!

 

[The Johnster]

As I’ve never been to Sydney, or San Francisco, by any means of transport I’m not really in a position to argue!

Lisbon is marvellous; the high ground on the south bank, the villas and grand art deco hotels of Estoril and Caiscais lead your eye to rhe Belem Tower and the Henry The Navigator monument.  The  Ponte 25 Abrill was under construction at the time, all under the watchful gaze of Christ The Redeemer, who might not be on as notable a plinth as his oppo in Rio de Janiero but is pretty impressive against the skyline just the same.  Then, as you pass the Belem, the whole shining city on its hillsides opens out to your view like a gift being unwrapped.     It’s bloody marvellous!

 

Dublin from an approaching ferry is pretty good as well, with the Wicklows as the backdrop and the bay welcoming you in between the arms of Howth and Bray to the gateposts of the power station chimneys.  And if you ever get a chance to have a run up to Hotwells on the Waverley or Balmoral, you won’t regret taking it, but the city really only plays a supporting role at the very end of the show; the main event is the gorge and the bridge. 

[MarkC]

On 25/01/2022 at 18:54, johnofwessex said:

 

SA Vaal?

Or possibly SA Oranje?

[MarkC]

Lisbon, Istanbul, Sydney, passing through Panama Canal, entering Gibraltar Bay, Hong Kong, approaching Tokyo, Naples Bay, passing New Orleans whilst going up the Missippippi - the list goes on - and the best bit for me was that I was being paid to do these things! 

[pH]

8 hours ago, Michael Crofts said:

Ordinary service trains timed to connect with shipping services, principally ferries. 

Quite a few services like that to and from piers on the Clyde. 
 

- NBR, then LNER, to Craigendoran.

- Caledonian, then LMS, to Gourock, Wemyss Bay and Ardrossan Montgomerie Pier

- G&SWR, then LMS, to Greenock Princes Pier, Fairlie Pier and Ardrossan Winton Pier.

 

Originally, all these railway companies were in fierce competition with each other to provide service through these piers to Glasgow, usually for commuters. Some of the journey times e.g. Arran to Glasgow were faster before Grouping than they are today.

 

Even in BR days, some of these services were the fastest on the routes. An example was the 5.20 from Glasgow Central to Gourock, with a connection to Dunoon. In the mid-1960s, at the end of locomotive-hauled services on the route, this often had a Midland Lines diesel as power - usually a Sulzer Type 2, but sometimes a Peak. 
 

There was a Central to Wemyss Bay boat express mid-morning on Saturday. In the summer of 1965 (I don’t know about any other time), Polmadie would usually turn out a 76xxx on this train. I presumed the smaller driving wheels, compared to the usual 2-6-4Ts and 73xxxs were to deal with the three and a half mile climb at 1 in 66 from Wemyss Bay Junction.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, pH said:

Quite a few services like that to and from piers on the Clyde. 
 

- NBR, then LNER, to Craigendoran.

- Caledonian, then LMS, to Gourock, Wemyss Bay and Ardrossan Montgomerie Pier

- G&SWR, then LMS, to Greenock Princes Pier, Fairlie Pier and Ardrossan Winton Pier.

 

 

The Caledonian and Sou' Western trains were real racing trains, with the two lines in sight of each other for much of the way. 

[pH]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Caledonian and Sou' Western trains were real racing trains, with the two lines in sight of each other for much of the way. 

Only between Kilwinning and Ardrossan. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by pH

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, 62613 said:

Have to disagree about Sydney. First trip J/E on a BP "Birdie" boat, we went up the harbour on Boxing Day 1974. As I was on the 8 - 12, and it was afternoon, I had a grandstand view from the monkey island; it's something I haven't forgotten; a gloriously warm, sunny day, Sydney - Hobart yacht race getting going, the Opera House, under the bridge, and there was Garden Island with the RAN on its way to Darwin, which had just been flattened by a typhoon. To a very impressionable 21 - year old,you couldn't beat it!

tos available as I always carruied a camera

Coming up Port Jackson Garden Island is on the port side opposite Cremorne Point and before you get to the Opera House and the bridge.  I used to go past it on the ferry every day on my way to & from work  (plenty of photos available as I always carried a camera). Back to boat trains?

[Michael Crofts]

OK, back to boat trains.

So what have we got today, that could actually be called a boat train?

Newcastle sailings - zilch. Nothing. DFDS have even withdrawn their bus service between Newcastle Central and the ferry terminal (Covid is the excuse - I'm zipping my lips).

Harwich - Hoek van Holland - nope. Not a single train that makes any pretence of being a boat train.

There are the Isle of Wight connections, but can any of them really be called boat trains?

Stranraer? No, and No.

Is there anything to Dover? The Southampton Cruise Ships? Poole? Portsmouth? Plymouth? Milford Haven? Fishguard? Liverpool? 

 

I was going to be a bit tongue in cheek here and suggest the Bure Valley Railway Broadland Boat Train... but it's gone. No longer exists.

 

Hopefully someone else can suggest what have we got nowadays in the UK that can honestly call itself a boat train.

Or are they a ?

[The Stationmaster]

I suppose we can almost call the various trains which connect with  ferries at Fishguard Harbour 'boat trains' because there's not really any other reason for a train to go there   

 

Similarly although they call at more intermediate stations that was once the case the Liverpool St - Harwich, and vice versa, trains are specifically timed  to connect into and out the Hoek Van Holland ferries which implies to me that they are effectively boat trains because they are the only passenger trains to run through between London and the Harwich branch.  The port website refers to 'regular train connections for the ferry service.  so still not officially 'boat trains' but that is exactly what they are in the original meaning of the term

[Miss Prism]

It seems the GWR tried to snaffle Southampton boat traffic from the LSWR. This is c 1909. The location is fairly clear, but what puzzles me is how this got to Reading - via Basingstoke, or via Newbury?

 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

It seems the GWR tried to snaffle Southampton boat traffic from the LSWR. This is c 1909. The location is fairly clear, but what puzzles me is how this got to Reading - via Basingstoke, or via Newbury?

 

 

Rather a motley collection of vehicles. The leading carriage looks rather dingy, given that it can only have been brown for a year or so at most. Is that a 6-wheel siphon in fifth place? The second carriage looks to be an F6 50 ft double-ended slip tricomposite. I'll speculate that only a couple of carriages started at Southampton and the rest were accumulated en route, including the slip carriage, which had presumably been slipped from a down train and is now working back. I doubt this was serious competition for passengers going up to London but it presumably provided connections for passengers bound for the Thames valley and points north. The Midland had also been in that game through its protégé the M&SWJR - through carriages via Cheltenham - at least until that line fell into the maw of the Great Western at grouping (and after the Midland had paid for doubling too). But I don't think the Midland through carriages were timed particularly to connect with sailings.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Compound2632