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On Tim L's P4 Workbench - progress with locos


Tim Lewis
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  • 1 month later...

... my trusty J39....

 

Ah, cr*p.  That put the kiss of death on things.  Gearbox completely seized up today, so the J39 will be back on the workbench at some point soon.  It's an old Sharman box, which will actually be quite tricky to extricate from the chassis I think (although it was the recommended box at the time - the instructions were written a long time ago).  Whether or not it will be salvageable I don't know yet, but I think I'd be better off replacing it with a suitable, more accessible, High Level one - will do some planning before Scaleforum.

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  • 7 months later...

I should really be trying to progress the layout, but have accidentally been working on another wagon: 

DSC_3820_30pc.JPG.578e36136a3b6dd11758b88f45ecc15c.JPG

This is an LNER 6-plank open.  I put the body together ages ago, from a Cambrian kit.  I had intended to put a Masokits sub-frame underneath it, but as explained earlier in the thread had some problems making them fit to some of the Cambrian bodies.  So, it languished on one side for a while.  Then, Oxford brought out their RTR version, the bodywork of which is very good (externally at least). The brakes are wrong, but easy enough to correct. I've got 3 or 4 Oxford ones to sort out, but I then thought that I should do something different with the Cambrian body.  So, I decided to make it into a 10ft wheelbase fitted version to Diagram 92.  I've used Dave Bradwell's excellent etched underframe: I've made several of these before, but this is the first time I've done the wooden underframe variant.  Progress to date is shown in the photo: body is not yet sitting correctly, and I haven't yet cut the headstocks to the correct length or filled the hollow ends.  Obviously still got to do the brakes etc., but it's looking OK so far.

 

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Also, you'll be pleased to know that my J39 is back in business.  I replaced the old Sharman box with a High Level (can't remember which one, but it's 34:1) and it now runs very nicely again.  Here it is passing through Coldstream with a lengthy freight.

 

 

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  • 6 months later...

Not posted anything for quite a while....

 

Things have been progressing slowly, having done a bit more trackwork and I've also been trying to fettle a loco or two (without complete success so far, but they're getting close!).  But I keep getting distracted by wagons: I find the urge to start a new wagon quite irresistible at  times.  So, I've been working on some more cattle wagons.  Before this latest batch the train consisted of 5 x LNER, 2 x LMS and 2 x SR.  The SR ones are Hornby which, apart from swapping the wheels, haven't had anything done to them as yet (they don't need much).

 

When I first started planning the cattle train many years ago now, I assumed that I would need lots of LNER wagons so I bought around a dozen of the Parkside ones.  I also wanted a few LMS ones so I got some David Geen ones.  There's one of each in this photo: 

 

DSC_4375_30pc.JPG.1820a1ccd2be825a2f064b3784527e5b.JPG

 

I built these before all the debate about the relative proportions of cattle wagons from the Big Four in early British Railways days (which was partly provoked by the release of Oxford Rail's attempt at the LNER one).  From this debate, and also from photographic evidence elsewhere, it became apparent that 5 LNER wagons was probably enough for the train I want to build, and that I needed quite a few more LMS ones.  So, I'm currently building 3 more LMS wagons.

 

When Parkside released the D1661 LMS cattle wagon a few years back, I was surprised to read (in more than one place) in the model railway press that they had "filled a notable gap" in the cattle wagon market.  I found this strange, because the perfectly good David Geen kit had been available for many years prior to the Parkside one (although it's not currently in production of course).  I thought it was unfortunate that Parkside chose the D1661 (i.e. the same as the Geen kit) rather than the later D1840 (which is quite similar but is vacuum fitted and has detail differences) or, even better, the D1944 (which has internal framing, and really would have plugged a gap in the market).  Don't get me wrong - the Parkside kit is excellent, I just wish they'd done a different diagram, especially as I really wanted some of the later ones.  Anyway...

 

In terms of the body work, the main differences between the D1661 and the D1840 are in the drop doors and strapping detail.  As I understand it, the D1661 had either 2 or 3 plank drop doors, whilst the D1840 always had 3 plank doors.  In terms of brakegear, the D1661s were either unfitted or piped, whilst the D1840s were all fully fitted.  As 2 of the 3 I'm currently building will be D1840s, they need to have 3-plank doors: the David Geen kit included alternative castings for 2 and 3 plank doors, but the Parkside kit only has a moulding for the 2 plank door.  The photo below shows the Parkside side with a Geen 3-plank door casting (not yet cleaned up): it is fairly obvious what needs to be cut away to make the casting fit into the plastic side.

 

DSC_4380_30pc.JPG.1ed75dc75a1f40f93729fad4401a6ba0.JPG

 

The final photo shows where I've got to with the rake of three wagons (obviously some way still to go!):

 

DSC_4400_30pc.JPG.99247c0ac87a22b3807c8293ce99edb0.JPG

Left to right these are:

 

i) D1661 using the Parkside body, sitting on Masokits sprung W-irons.  The rest of the (piped only) gear will be from the kit, plus some vac pipes from MJT.

ii) D1840 using the Parkside body with a Geen 3-plank drop door moulding.  This sits on a (currently incomplete) underframe from Bill Bedford (available from Eileen's)

iii) D1840 using the Geen body, again sitting on a Bill Bedford underframe

 

Eventually, I'll probably make some more D1840s - I have one more Geen and 2 Parkside kits in the drawer, but don't have any more spare 3-plank doors, so they will have to be done in Plasticard for the Parkside kits.  Some D1944s would also be nice, but I don't have time for full scratchbuilds at the moment!

 

 

 

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Getting a bit bored of only having the J39 and D11 running, so I've been trying to make some more progress with other locos, some of which have been on the production line for a very (very, very) long time!

 

First up is the J21 that I started in 1988!  This had been running previously, but was misbehaving a bit, and consensus amongst my friends was that it needed a new motor and gearbox.  It had a Mashima 1220 and a Branchlines 67:1 Multibox.  I've replaced these with a new 1220 and a High Level 60:1 Road Runner+ (or was it a compact+, can't remember).  It runs more reliably now, though I'm still slightly disappointed at its' haulage capacity.  It has a chip in the tender, but is wired to allow DC running/testing as well, which is why the wires are protruding.  Still a lot of work required, but at least I can watch it run round while I think about it.

DSC_4542_25pc.JPG.dcdebffbc4c01531647582b424b6f580.JPG

 

Next is my G5, which I started as recently as 1993!  I had put this to one side ages ago as I messed up the smokebox wrapper, but have recently fettled it.  I have changed the prototype that I'm making, which now has a wooden sandwich buffer beam, so I've actually taken bits OFF! (not put the new beam in yet).  A fair amount of weight in the tanks and a chip which obviously needs some tidying up.  Runs quite nicely and will pull 5 or 6 non-corridor coaches easily enough, so that'll be plenty.  As with the J21, lots of work still to do.  Don't pay too much attention to the roof on the adjacent coach - I know it needs attention!

DSC_4534_25pc.JPG.7c441d7fd92ca40cdb714279fd89e50d.JPG

 

DSC_4535_25pc.JPG.7c8df3b8321986c07f81ada44ff12c1b.JPG

 

Thirdly is the J25, started in around 1999 I think.  This has been running for quite some time, but I've only recently put a chip in it.  The rivet on which the the coupling rods are jointed has a nasty habit of coming adrift (there is only the merest hint of solder holding it in place), but I think I've managed to make it a bit more robust now.   The front springs need adjusting to level it up.  Here it is pulling a hopper train out of the down headshunt, and again in the down platform:

DSC_4530_25pc.JPG.6dbf86c59010cf68eeb3a1a4646281c2.JPG

 

DSC_4533_25pc.JPG.844407e2c065719f21bd5b6d829ffda7.JPG

 

Finally for now, a definite newcomer - a Hornby J36 conversion.  Not the easiest conversion I've done (not that I've done too many) as it requires a lot of gouging away inside the splashers, but it's getting there.  Runs well forwards (most of the time), but is a bit lumpy backwards - I think the drivers or crankpin nuts may still be catching on the inside of the splashers when the wheels are at the limit of their sideplay - a bit more gouging required I think.  It will eventually be re-numbered to one of Hawick's allocation and will need a tender cab.

DSC_4529_25pc.JPG.0f2151916cc9d17c0cd625f94e681750.JPG

 

So, the loco stud is slowly expanding, though they all have some way to go yet.

 

That's all for now.

 

 

 

 

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On 04/03/2020 at 09:15, micklner said:

Re the J21 the Mashima 1020 has more power. The 12 series are all poor. Nice locos

Thanks for that Mick: I'll bear that in mind next time I need a small motor (though Mashima's are getting hard to come by of course).

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On 05/03/2020 at 20:30, Portchullin Tatty said:

Tim,

 

On the J36, it sounds as if you kept the Hornby chassis, without modifications?

 

And regarding the gouging, how did you gouge and is there any risk of coming through?  I have one in the box, which I must get to!

 

 

Mark

Hi Mark,

 

Yes, I have kept the Hornby chassis.  It has 2mm axles for the drivers (and the tender wheels).  Colin at Alan Gibson has now done the correct wheels for 2mm axles - I don't think they've appeared on the list yet but they're certainly available, so give him a call if need be.

 

The inside of the splashers measured something like 21.7mm (if I remember correctly, didn't make a note of it at the time) and I widened this to around 22.5 or thereabouts, which seemed to be enough.  For the gouging I used the tools below:

DSC_4562_25pc_crop.jpg.e394d544d198fc39aa5c306ab09d6277.jpg

 

Most of the work was done in fairly agricultural fashion using the round burr/cutter (don't know if it has a proper name) in the middle of the picture, then used the sanding/cutting disc to smooth off a bit.  I used the smaller thinner burr on the small crankpin splashers, though I'm not sure this was absolutely necessary.  I also gouged a bit of a channel along the underside of the footplate (using the cutting disc) to provide a bit of extra clearance for the rods - again, I'm not sure this was really necessary.  The end result looks a bit of a mess underneath, but it does the job:

DSC_4561_25pc.JPG.1850257858bd8a95d9e1af63740af8e9.JPG

 

DSC_4557_25pc_crop.jpg.0ed839a31f714553b7b1359d15545888.jpg

(I've no idea why the picture above is in a portrait orientation, the original is landscape).  I need to do some more adjustment of the pickups, but the tender pickups do a pretty good job by themselves.

 

Unfortunately yes, it is possible to gouge through - I got a bit over-ambitious/careless on one of the splashers, so a bit of tidying up will be required.  However, I did have it running perfectly well before I gouged through, so it is possible to complete the job without making a mess of it!

DSC_4558_25pc_crop.jpg.cf7cd25bbb858ae3b2988a64a0e67ed6.jpg

 

The re-wheeled J36 runs pretty well though it is essentially a rigid chassis so gives an occasional jolt at some track joints - it may be possible to engineer a little bit of vertical movement in the Hornby chassis (there is virtually none as it comes), but I haven't bothered with this as yet at least.

DSC_4558_25pc_crop2.jpg.8e574cb318d0ce781ae90538c64b44b2.jpg

 

All in all, a pleasing conversion and a useful addition to the loco roster.  The rods aren't brilliant, and I'd quite like to change them.  Perhaps that nice Mr. Franks might like to oblige.

 

Just need to decide which class member to model now!

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Cheers for now.

 

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1 minute ago, AJCT said:

What did you use for washers on the driving axles between the new wheels and the original chassis block ?

 

Alasdair

Just the normal 2mm spacing washers from Alan Gibson.  I used 2.75mm each side on front and rear, and 2.5mm each side on the centre.  Note however that I did file the boss off the back of the drivers first (later decided it wasn't necessary, but I'd done it by then), so if you didn't do this then fewer washers would be needed.  One day I may get around to some cosmetic frames.

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  • 8 months later...

Tim,

         I am just starting on a old Norton J25 kit.

         Do still have any photos of you build please.Or any close ups of the model now ?.The instructions with mine are as good as useless /non existent. The Tender instructions say build it !!.

       Everything on your  transfer over from the old RM Web  pages 1 and 2  on this thread, are refusing to open etc on my computer.

 

Thanks for any help.

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31 minutes ago, Paul Cram said:

Hi Mick

 

I have built the 07 version in P4 (That was the kit that became George Norton's, Oicture attached. I seem to recall the tender was straight forward.

 

Mine has no tabs/slots or any  marks or lines to show how parts should line up, this on the Tender. There are no Coal plates or the centre sloping section for the Tender. Not shown on the very basic instructions, so I presume were forgotten at the time .

I have'nt looked at the Loco so far.

 

Obviously a very old kit dated 1985 on the etches .

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On 18/10/2015 at 23:11, Tim Lewis said:

No posts for a while - the usual reasons of too much work, not enough time for modelling etc. etc.  However, there has been a bit of progress.  When Bachmann released their LNER vans and opens (a few years ago now - time files), I bought a few of each.  I have now finally finished swapping the wheels and adding weight.  Most ran OK individually without extra weight, but in a longish train there tended to be too many derailments, and they definitely benefit from more weight.  

 

These are intended to form the basis of a diverted ECML freight for Coldstream.

 

The vans weigh in at about 34g as bought: happily, you can remove the underframe and the floor and attach weight inside the van body.  I've added 3 nominal 5g balance weights to bring them up to around 50g.

post-7001-0-73529800-1445201334.jpg

 

Not really the right motive power, but it'll do for now.  And the opens:

post-7001-0-90256500-1445201458.jpg

 

These only weigh about 22g as bought.  There is space for a bit more weight between underframe and body, but you can only get as far as around 26-27g this way - not really enough.  Drastic surgery would be required to get more in.  I couldn't be bothered with this, so they will run with loads (if I want some empties, I'll use the Parkside kits).  Currently their precious cargo consists of over-sized balance weights!

post-7001-0-10634900-1445201520.jpg

 

Bringing up the rear is a bogie bolster and brake van, again from Bachmann:

post-7001-0-59165300-1445201548.jpg

 

These wagons are not quite as good as you could produce from kits, but less effort!  However, there's still much to do in the way of renumbering and weathering and (especially the bogie bolster) some added detailing, but at least I've got a reasonable train to run whilst I do this.

 

Away from RTR conversions, an ex-NER V4 brake is also taking shape:

post-7001-0-66060100-1445202158.jpg

 

This is from a D&S kit which I think I picked up at the Scaleforum bring-and-buy a few years back.  There was one there this year too, with a price tag of £40!  It wasn't there at the end of the weekend, so presumably somebody forked out for it.  Probably they didn't know that it's currently re-available from D&S for (I think) £16.50 or thereabouts.

 

Hopefully get a bit more done over the coming winter months.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Tim could please tell me about the timbre finished Hopper wagon

John 

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On 03/12/2020 at 17:11, micklner said:

Tim,

         I am just starting on a old Norton J25 kit.

         Do still have any photos of you build please.Or any close ups of the model now ?.The instructions with mine are as good as useless /non existent. The Tender instructions say build it !!.

       Everything on your  transfer over from the old RM Web  pages 1 and 2  on this thread, are refusing to open etc on my computer.

 

Thanks for any help.

Hi Mick,

 

Yes the original instructions are a bit of a waste of time - as you have discovered , the tender instructions are by Nike!  I got some updated instructions from John Redrup at London Road Models ([email protected]) - about 15 pages of instructions and the same of exploded diagrams if I remember right.  If you don't have any joy via that route then I can scan mine and send them to you, but all my railway stuff is packed away at present (we're having some work done on the house), so I may not be able to do that for a while - they're also full of my scribbles.  Let me know if you want me to do that.

 

I can't see the old photos either - perhaps they got lost in a forum upgrade or something.  I should still have them on the laptop somewhere - I'll see if I can find and re-post some of them, hopefully they'll be easy to find.  I don't have any very recent pictures of the J25, other than the one in the post a few above, but I haven't done any work on it for a very long time.

 

Cheers.

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1 minute ago, Tim Lewis said:

Hi Mick,

 

Yes the original instructions are a bit of a waste of time - as you have discovered , the tender instructions are by Nike!  I got some updated instructions from John Redrup at London Road Models ([email protected]) - about 15 pages of instructions and the same of exploded diagrams if I remember right.  If you don't have any joy via that route then I can scan mine and send them to you, but all my railway stuff is packed away at present (we're having some work done on the house), so I may not be able to do that for a while - they're also full of my scribbles.  Let me know if you want me to do that.

 

I can't see the old photos either - perhaps they got lost in a forum upgrade or something.  I should still have them on the laptop somewhere - I'll see if I can find and re-post some of them, hopefully they'll be easy to find.  I don't have any very recent pictures of the J25, other than the one in the post a few above, but I haven't done any work on it for a very long time.

 

Cheers.

Hi Tim,

       Yes please to any photos you can find.

      I have a had a look myself since my post and found the instructions for my Bradwell J27 . I then also had a very small brainwave !! , and realised I can use the built Bradwell  J27 Tender (same type) , for measuring the general layout of the Norton Tender parts, and use some spare Bradwell castings to improve the model as well.

 

many thanks

 

Mick

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I've found some of the J25 photos.  I don't have any from the early part of the build (don't think I ever did have), but hopefully some of these will be useful.

 

Firstly, here some views of the chassis and drive train, starting with an overall view:

DSCN1698small.JPG.076693400abca5ca60d5c549ad9cbb7e.JPG

 

Mashima 1628 (I think) in the tender driving High Level box (can't remember which) on centre axle.  Split frame construction, hence the plastic 'sheet' in the tender to avoid any shorts.  UJs were from FourMil - don't think these are available now, but you can probably get them elsewhere.

 

DSCN1700small.JPG.87a5921b91631756b83d7820bcee5c10.JPG

 

Box is restrained from too much movement by a bit of wire wrapped around the top bolt, which is then clipped through holes in the frames:

 

DSCN1697small.jpg.c0d93773507961d687b544dbc5ebf129.jpg

 

Another view showing some of the home-made phosphor-bronze springing - crude but effective:

 

DSCN1701small.JPG.2f385352512eb35781452cc1193f563b.JPG

 

Underneath view of the loco chassis, again note home-made springing arrangement:

 

dscn1704small.jpg.aae998ab6ebd50d6d3ac59ffdad54e31.jpg

 

Underneath view of tender chassis: motor rests on a blob of silicon sealant on the middle spacer:

 

dscn1705small.jpg.1074f4595ab9e5a04c343c7137c7c8f3.jpg

 

Another view of tender chassis showing PB springs, which also transfer current from the hornblocks to the frames, then there are wires from frame to motor.  Not shown here, but wheels have shorting strips between rim and (split) axle:

 

dscn1706small.jpg.5314a31746a26b8155a4b7423cf03a25.jpg

 

Loco frames without wheels, showing fusewire axle retainers.  Although the loco chassis has insulated spacers, I haven't bothered to pickup from the loco, as it works perfectly fine just using the tender, and avoids having to trail wires from loco to motor in tender:

 

DSCN2136small.JPG.343e25b3366fc3c83ee44c7441806f9c.JPG

 

Painted/weathered:

 

DSCN2148small.JPG.b6b9e0b77e72b4a6252da5e985a9a382.JPG

 

More to come later on.....

 

 

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17 hours ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi Tim could please tell me about the timbre finished Hopper wagon

John 

Hi,

 

Do you mean these ones?

DSC_4621_crop_50pc.JPG.ca7ae262bc3e09814097d88cd909a410.JPG

The one on the left is a NER 17T wagon to diagram P6, perpetuated by the LNER as Diagram 11.  You don't see many prototype photos of these, but there were over 5000 built, with nearly 2000 still around at Nationalisation, according to Tatlow.  The other two are the much later LNER diagram 193 slope-sided 13T wagons: despite the rather archaic appearance, these were built between 1944-47.  All three are scratchbuilt from 1/32" basswood, with plasticard strapping and individual bolt head detail from Grandt Line and Tichy Trains.  The boltheads on the strapping are simply "embossed" with a sharp(-ish) point from behind. To add some much needed weight, the P6 has a lead floor (and brakegear from Slaters/Ambis) whilst the 193s have cast whitemetal floors and brakegear from David Geen.

 

Here are a couple of pictures before painting/detailing:

 

DSCN2040small.JPG.ef9659b90bf7071839de9140bb379c8b.JPG

 

DSCN2617small.JPG.46911714df7fb9f6ff0932efee765dd8.JPG

 

DSCN2036small.JPG.042fa6790be2a4c8bda4134d85bec7b9.JPG

 

Not sure I got the buffers right on the Diagram 193s, and the last one of the P6 reminds me that I originally built it with a Slater's brake lever and guide, since replaced that with Ambis etches.  Also, it looks like I didn't use the "embossing" method here, but drilled individual holes, inserted a bit of micro-rod and cut it off - a sufficiently mind-numbing exercise that I now use the embossing method, which has to be about 500 times quicker and just as effective.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

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