Class 20 - Green livery

[Guest Austerity94]

Hi folks,

 

I have a couple of class 20s model that I want to repaint green, but I want some subtle variations between them; one of these will be the totem/coach logo. As I want to model them as new to traffic I also want to paint them in plain green.

 

Can anyone tell me what class 20s had the round coach-style logo? I know that the second, larger, tablet catcher batch had them but I also know that some earlier, standard disc fitted, locos had them too.

 

The second question is from what number were the small yellow warning panels added? I know that the first 40 or so were in plain green but beyond that my pictures are late sixties and all either have these panels, have full yellow ends, or are blue.

 

As usual, thanks in advance for any help offered.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

 

PS. Although I am asking only about the livery, any other helpful information about the locos in their early years would also be of interest. Thanks again.

[Pennine MC]

Can anyone tell me what class 20s had the round coach-style logo? I know that the second, larger, tablet catcher batch had them but I also know that some earlier, standard disc fitted, locos had them too.

 

Fairly frequent query - according to somebody or other in this thread on the old forum, plus also this one, 8050 - 8127. That means 8050 - 69 were the only English machines with the roundel - without checking I'd think they were Sheffield area engines when new

 

The second question is from what number were the small yellow warning panels added? I know that the first 40 or so were in plain green but beyond that my pictures are late sixties and all either have these panels, have full yellow ends, or are blue.

 

 

 

More interesting, that one. Yellow panels generally came in from 1962 (in some cases it was possibly late '61), but I'm not sure any disc 20s would have had them from new - if so, possibly the last few in the 812x series. There was then a gap in production until the headcoded machines in 1966

 

PS. Although I am asking only about the livery, any other helpful information about the locos in their early years would also be of interest

Depends what you want to know really, it's a bit of an open question. Allocations, traffic usage? What and where are you modelling?

[Crossfell5]

Some nice early shots here http://www.flickr.com/photos/24041160@N02/

 

Nick

[Guest Austerity94]

Hi folks,

 

Thanks for the link to the flicker site; a quick search found a good pick of D8068 in plain green with the coaching roundel.

 

Sorry if the question was a bit vague (with an academic background in theology vague is something I do well!) but that was intentional! To answer your question, Pennine, I have yet to finalise what/where I am modelling but it will involve a number of classes 08/20/25 as I particularly like them. Most of my locos are in early to mid-80s condition, although I have a few in early 60s condition too. I have managed to find out a great deal about allocations (up to around 1985) and traffic useage but what I am most interested in are livery variations, body changes etc. Does that help?

 

Looking earlier at some class 25 pics, I wonder if any 20s also appeared in blue with a small panel (as did class 25s D5218 and two of the last batch of 25/3s)?

 

Some headcode box fitted 20s have a gap in the handrail where a ladder 'may' have been fitted but did any actually get them?

 

Other than some getting extra fuel capacity above footplate level, were there any other significant body modifications?

 

I do have a number of books on the class but these are some of the questions that are not answered in either the text or the pictures.

 

Again, many thanks for the informative and helpful input to this thread.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Pennine MC]

Sorry if the question was a bit vague (with an academic background in theology vague is something I do well!) but that was intentional!

 

Ah, I dont do vague. I just mutter 'buy some books'

 

 

Looking earlier at some class 25 pics, I wonder if any 20s also appeared in blue with a small panel (as did class 25s D5218 and two of the last batch of 25/3s)?

 

Nope. The only significant pre-Sector variations I can think of are:

 

* some early blue repaints had 'green style' seriffed numbers;

 

* some ScR blue/full yellow repaints had variation in how far round the cabside or nose end the yellow extended

 

* again on the ScR, position of numbers varied on recess-fitted locos when repainted blue - some went on the bonnet, a pattern later exhibited by TOPS era standard locos if shopped at Glasgow

 

There'll be examples of these things on Brush Veteran's site - look for 8030, 8095 for starters

 

Some headcode box fitted 20s have a gap in the handrail where a ladder 'may' have been fitted but did any actually get them?

 

I doubt it, by the time that batch were built, the removal process on existing locos would have been well established. Most likely the new builds continued with the existing pattern of rail because it wasnt worth redesigning it

 

Other than some getting extra fuel capacity above footplate level, were there any other significant body modifications?

 

Only the loss of discs on some during the late 80s, which arguably isnt 'significant'. AFAIK only one ever got the extra fuel tanks, until the DRS rebuilds that is

 

Other details to look out for include different bogie sideframes (plain, fluted and fluted with lightening holes), and oval buffers on the Pilot Scheme locos (some later replaced by round)

[D605Eagle]

IIRC D8000-19 had oval buffers, and nose ladders, although they were removed after a short time.

['CHARD]

AFAIK only one ever got the extra fuel tanks, until the DRS rebuilds that is

20084

[Russell Saxton]

I'm unsure as to what point the yellow panels appeared. Mandatory from Feb 1962 supposedly but some 20s (8030/3)were plain green until 1967/8. Maybe, just maybe the last few 8125/6/7 may have had them from new.

 

8178-99 and 8300-27 were delivered in Rail Blue with D prefixes. As said above, none had SYP on blue but at least 8005/70 had FYE one end, SYP the other. Which ends-I don't know!

[Daddyman]

Hi Alex,

I don't think you said what region you're interested in. If Scotland, 'On West Highland Lines' has a picture of D8095 filthy in full green (no panels), roundel on bonnet, cab roof colour indistinguishable, 16 July 1965.

WJV Anderson's ;'Diesels in Scotland' has shiny D8117 'brand-new' (according to the caption) in full green, no panels, full grey roof including cab, and roundel on bonnet, 1962.

[MUTTLEY]

Fairly frequent query - according to somebody or other in this thread on the old forum, plus also this one, 8050 - 8127. That means 8050 - 69 were the only English machines with the roundel - without checking I'd think they were Sheffield area engines when new

 

 

 

 

As well as 8050-8127, 8014 had the Coaching Stock Roundel and still had it when renumbered into TOPS, as 20014. It was withdrawn in 1976, STILL in green and CS Roundel, the only Class 20 never to receive Blue Livery.

 

Rgds, Ron.

[johnw1]

 

As well as 8050-8127, 8014 had the Coaching Stock Roundel and still had it when renumbered into TOPS, as 20014. It was withdrawn in 1976, STILL in green and CS Roundel, the only Class 20 never to receive Blue Livery.

 

Rgds, Ron.

 

20014 seen here just prior to being stored before withdrawal

 

[Daddyman]

Sorry to hijack the topic - but was there any rhyme or reason in the different bogie types?

[Pennine MC]

Sorry to hijack the topic - but was there any rhyme or reason in the different bogie types?

 

Basically, successive designs got lighter - the early ones had solid bogie struts, then they became fluted for most of the production, then some of the last ones delivered had holes cast into the struts to save even more weight.

[Daddyman]

That's clear, thanks, Pennine MC.

Hijack over.

[RANGERS]

 

20014 seen here just prior to being stored before withdrawal

 

I'd have to question this, 20 147 and several others around this number were in green into the eighties, 147 had aquired one blue bodyside door by 1979 and at least one other had double arrows on the green livery.

 

I recall seeing three green 20s at Skegness in the summer of 1979, 147 was certainly one of them, it had become a bit of a favourite of mine by that time as it turned up regularly at Corby and was the only green loco to do so by that stage. Seeing the other two that day opened my eyes to the fact that there were others out there!

 

I don't think many of these would have been repainted until after the Railfreight colours were being applied and some would have been withdrawn by then, the miners strike certainly put paid to a fair few of them.

[Pennine MC]

I'd have to question this, 20 147 and several others around this number were in green into the eighties, ...

 

I don't think many of these would have been repainted until after the Railfreight colours were being applied and some would have been withdrawn by then, the miners strike certainly put paid to a fair few of them.

 

Not so, I'm afraid R. I wouldnt like to say whether '014 was the only one to never wear blue, but I do know that the last green 20s (together with the last green 08s), went blue during 1980. Railfreight grey on 20s came along in '85.

[MUTTLEY]

I'd have to question this, 20 147 and several others around this number were in green into the eighties, 147 had aquired one blue bodyside door by 1979 and at least one other had double arrows on the green livery.

 

I recall seeing three green 20s at Skegness in the summer of 1979, 147 was certainly one of them, it had become a bit of a favourite of mine by that time as it turned up regularly at Corby and was the only green loco to do so by that stage. Seeing the other two that day opened my eyes to the fact that there were others out there!

 

I don't think many of these would have been repainted until after the Railfreight colours were being applied and some would have been withdrawn by then, the miners strike certainly put paid to a fair few of them.

 

Just to put the record straight on this; 20014 WAS the only Class 20, never to receive green livery - the other 20s withdrawn around the same time (012/038/074) were all blue. The very last green Class 20 and the last main line diesel in green livery was 20141, which had its first coat of blue paint, during the summer of 1980, which is a clear five years before the introduction of the RailFreight livery, so between June 1980 and June 1985 (ish) all remaining 20s were blue.

 

Cheers, Ron.

[DavidBird]

I well remember seeing, with great disappointment, 20 147 in shiny bright new blue livery outside Derby works, must have been 1980.

 

Anybody know if the 20s ran with regular partners, if so, what was 147's partner immediatly prior to repainting into blue (ie late 79 - mid 1980)

[D6975]

Has anyone mentioned the replacement of the front knobs with little handrails? Only a minor variation that I hadn't noticed until I read about it somewhere on this site (don't ask me where!). I mean the ones on the nose end just above the buffers on the walkway bit - you know where I mean...

[Guest Phil]

 

Anybody know if the 20s ran with regular partners, if so, what was 147's partner immediately prior to repainting into blue (ie late 79 - mid 1980)

 

No.

 

There was an initiative in the 1980s to replace class 25s on the Peak Forest stone hoppers with pairs of class 20s. These had a small mod done to them to balance the air reservoirs using a small bore pipe taped to the nose end vacuum bags of pairs of 20s - renumbered as 20/3s. The idea was that they would stay together as pairs, with this balancing pipe curing a problem with the class. The plan was not regarded as maintainable and the locos were renumbered back into conventional numbers and the balancing pipe removed.

 

IIRC some pairs did stay together for months - 20160 + 20180, 20140 + 20154 and 20077 + 20141 being three pairs I recall that stayed together for months.

[Russell Saxton]

I suppose that as I lived near Toton I must have seen more pairs of 20s than most! Pairings seemed random, one pair may stick together for a few weeks, then be split up. No system as top disc/headcode couplings, just totallly random pairs from Toton or Tinsley and if the gods smiled, Immingham. (I remember waiting for an adex to edinburgh once at Alfreton and a pair of 20s came through. I hardly bothered to look up but it was 20052/144 off IM, both cops. I nearly collapsed!)

Quite a few remained in green in 1979, 20026/75, 141/50/1/3/8/70 at least and there were many in Autumn 1978 that may have lasted into 79.

 

My own last sighting of a green 20 was 20141 on 21 Jan 1980.

[DavidBird]

So I'd be ok with 20147 in green paired with any other Toton 20. I remember the blue data panels, anybody got a photo showing the blue door?

[DavidBird]

To answer my own question, just found this photp on flikr http://www.flickr.com/photos/35663521@N04/6163607965/. The time's just about right so I'll pair 147 with 20195 on my layout.

[johnw1]

Quite a few remained in green in 1979, 20026/75, 141/50/1/3/8/70 at least and there were many in Autumn 1978 that may have lasted into 79.

 

My own last sighting of a green 20 was 20141 on 21 Jan 1980.

 

Here is 20150 in green in June 1979, it went blue three months later in September

 

http://www.flickr.co...ohn/6242353081/

 

The last to go blue was I believe 20141 in July 1980 although my photo dates from April 1976

 

http://www.flickr.co...ohn/5601651074/

[MartinWales]

supposedly but some 20s (8030/3)were plain green until 1967/8.

 

Actually 8030/3 were'nt done until early Jan 1969, which means that they went straight from plain green to GFYE-there is a nice colour shot in Class 20's in Colour (1994).

 

Red faced dept here as I have D8033 in GFYE running in April 1968