Schprocket Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Actually Keith, to turn that camera angle a little (bad pun there...) and place that camera in the loco (this has been mentioned elsewhere and I'm sure many times), then add the scripting ability to the position detection and you have the ultimate in a 3d railway simulation without having to own a stinkingly fast computer to run it and you can instantly change views from driver to 'bird's eye' I think that aside from not realising the amount of work it takes to actually make a potentially complex subject simple, and then make it scaleable, by thinking 'inside the box' in terms of 'traditional' operation of model railways people are also missing the connection for Joe Average's layout to be potentially operated as a computer rail simulator "simulator" (as silly as that might sound at first) if this system pans out as projected... with the exception, of course, for spending four hours real-time driving an 86 up the virtual WCML or busting the virtual Cajon Pass with double-headed SD70MACs in a space the size of a student desk... Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2011 Actually Keith, to turn that camera angle a little (bad pun there...) and place that camera in the loco (this has been mentioned elsewhere and I'm sure many times), then add the scripting ability to the position detection and you have the ultimate in a 3d railway simulation without having to own a stinkingly fast computer to run it and you can instantly change views from driver to 'bird's eye' I think that aside from not realising the amount of work it takes to actually make a potentially complex subject simple, and then make it scaleable, by thinking 'inside the box' in terms of 'traditional' operation of model railways people are also missing the connection for Joe Average's layout to be potentially operated as a computer rail simulator "simulator" (as silly as that might sound at first) if this system pans out as projected... with the exception, of course, for spending four hours real-time driving an 86 up the virtual WCML or busting the virtual Cajon Pass with double-headed SD70MACs in a space the size of a student desk... Steve Actually when I posted it I was being light hearted, however afterwards I realised that these days it could well be possible! The problem comes when you use number (plate) recognition software like London's "C" zone and people get billed when they are in Stornoway or wherever! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 The problem comes when you use number (plate) recognition software like London's "C" zone and people get billed when they are in Stornoway or wherever! You don't have the same problem in the model world because you don't get people sticking fake numberplates over the real ones on vehicles. Realistically however most camera systems you'd fit into model space are not good enough to pick up moving vehicle numbers in very small sizes, let alone do so with multicoloured lettering on lined backgrounds. The bar codes on the bottom of locos can have FEC encodings (forward error correction) so can be very robust to read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 The limit of 56 may simply be that they want to produce all the tags in one or a few packs, rather than expect the user to produce their own. If it's a barcode system, as seems likely, then it could probably cope with a much larger number but it would be difficult to arrange the supply of so many different tags. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted March 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hornby mag have been using the system for analysis and debugging on their new layout, they have written about some of its capabilities too in their supplement. I would like to know if it will be/can be made compatible with any other system i.e. Lenz? I am not interested in the technicalities of computer control, so anything I can plu and play is fine by me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Personally, as someone who has considered purchasing a SPROG, this program appears to let me do the SPROG functions. Whether I'd save money I don't know......but I'd get the capability to play with the extra features at one point. Will this system (and the Elite) allow the use of say a Lenz point module, or are you stuck with Hornby's offering ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Personally, as someone who has considered purchasing a SPROG, this program appears to let me do the SPROG functions. Whether I'd save money I don't know......but I'd get the capability to play with the extra features at one point. The above is somewhat confusing. The Sprog is hardware. The software which most users use with a Sprog is JMRI. JMRI is free public domain software. JMRI will work with just about any DCC system which has a computer interface, including the Hornby Elite. So, if you have an Elite, and want to use it with JMRI, just download the software and use it. There are some other arguments about using a Sprog over an Elite; the Sprog is massively faster at reading/writing CV's to decoders, and the Elite can sometimes drop accessory commands from the computer (the Xpressnet protocol on the Elite appears to be buggy if using Lenz documentation or there are other features which are not fully documented which Hornby have adopted and the JMRI team have not spotted). But for many purposes the Elite will be OK with JMRI. There is also RocRail (free open source) and several paid for applications which can work with the Elite. (The two common systems which JMRI does not work with are Bachmann Dynamis (no computer interface on Dynamis) and Gaugemaster/MRC Prodigy (MRC refuses to let any third party software to work with their system) ). Will this system (and the Elite) allow the use of say a Lenz point module, or are you stuck with Hornby's offering ? Railmaster software; any answers will be guesswork at present. The Elite will drive any accessory decoders which receive their instructions from the track. There is a timing problem with multiple commands sent from a computer (at least within JMRI, can't be sure about other software) in quick succession; the Elite can loose some commands and fail to act on them. - Nigel (occaisional debugger of Elite issues for the JMRI development team, amongst other roles ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 The software which most users use with a Sprog is JMRI. JMRI is free public domain software. Free it is, open it is, public domain it is not. Fortunately too given the lawsuit http://jmri.sourceforge.net/k/History.shtml Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 The above is somewhat confusing. The Sprog is hardware. The software which most users use with a Sprog is JMRI. JMRI is free public domain software. JMRI will work with just about any DCC system which has a computer interface, including the Hornby Elite. So, if you have an Elite, and want to use it with JMRI, just download the software and use it. Sorry Nigel, sloppy language. I thought I'd have to buy SPROG to use JMRI, and lumped the two together. I was unaware that JMRI would work through the Elite, but as I only want an easier way to programme and tweak CV's, it looks likt this path will be a free route to what I want to do. I have learnt something today, thank you. I shall have a download and a play - and judging by your "sign off", I take it you've had "fun" with the Elite ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Free it is, open it is, public domain it is not. Fortunately too given the lawsuit http://jmri.sourcefo...k/History.shtml For crying out loud. I was unaware of this nonsense until I followed your thread. Only in America ? (one hopes) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Sorry Nigel, sloppy language. I thought I'd have to buy SPROG to use JMRI, and lumped the two together. I was unaware that JMRI would work through the Elite, but as I only want an easier way to programme and tweak CV's, it looks likt this path will be a free route to what I want to do. I have learnt something today, thank you. I shall have a download and a play - and judging by your "sign off", I take it you've had "fun" with the Elite ! Yes, lots of "fun", and I don't even own an Elite, I just borrow one from someone else for testing. The Elite will work with JMRI, which is great, computer interface will cost you one USB lead, which you may have lying around on a printer, etc.. But if you run into problems with commands not getting from computer to track, then using almost any other maker's system will remove those problems. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted March 28, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2011 The Luddite Factor.... we are all forgetting the luddite factor (for those unsure what a luddite is there is a very good article on wikipedia and no i didnt write it myself)....How many of us have seen articles in certain railway mags about modellers with nothing to do other then moan how dcc is being forced upon them....people are afraid of new technology and the moddelling world appears to be no different. A lot of this comes from the fear of not being able to use it so i would expect this is why it appears simplistic...in addition to this the sims require specifications to run acceptably not everyone has this, so it makes sense to offer a product that as wider possible audiance can take advantage of. Its a speculative market computer control you have free products on the market like JMRI so would it make sense to try and charge for a product? Only if you can introduce something JMRI/et all does not and may never be able to do and i suspect thats where this "bar code" idea comes from so i think we have answered our own question, whilst the basic features may well work with other controllers the more proprietry items such as the aforementioned "bar code" i expect will require the elite and its successors... (im not nit picking at the bar code idea as i think its probably correct) Its either that or a contactless induced memory chip, a bus pass for example can store 1kb of information in a chip no bigger then 2x2mm with a small antenna. Im an elite user and i see this as a good result for my problems and that is as been mentioned the elite is not the most user freindly controller when it comes to the interface and i expect this controller to remedy some of those issues... Will it work well....im not sure....whats the practicalities of siting a laptop or pc next to the layout....how have i solved this problem? im typing this thread on a TC1100 tablet computer which was bought for 42 pounds off ebay it has a 10" touch screen and runs windows XP supports USB and wireless and bluetooth so the railmaster will be purchased for my layout as soon as it hits the shelves. we have to ask what do we want out of rail modelling i think it gets blurred far too much are they toys....we say no but ask joe public and when you think train sets children always come to mind! toys or models....they are just that you will never get the full experience of a class 47 or an 8F in your living room attic or garage...if your expecting that your in the wrong hobby! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 If I have the full experience of an 8F in my living room I hope the fire brigade are already on their way ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 This has been a very interesting topic, and as someone who works with teenagers I can see the attraction of the Hornby software. On the flip side of that I was disappointed to see no mac support at present. The apps for I phone etc as a controller are a great idea and as this technology becomes cheaper can only be a bonus to the hobby. Hornby are to be applauded for trying to produce a simple, mass market computer based system at an affordable price. DCC as a whole is still a pain for non technical types, if someone had offered me a system like this for the price when I started a year ago, I would have pulled their arm off! Minimal set up complexity, route setting, reasonable compatability and hopefully good reliability, what's not to like? It has to be better than competing entry level equipment that won't work on other people's systems without constant work arounds. I think the detection system is a clever solution, it's low tech but that makes it accessible and adaptable. Look at the consumer products that have consistent appeal and you will find both these features.I hope this topic continues to generate interesting and informed debate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted May 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 10, 2011 Everything I have read about the new Hornby system so far points to it being very easy to use and will address some of the negative aspects of the Elite i.e.Lots of button pushes. I am all for something that is easy to use and quick to set up, I am not interested in the complexities of DCC, I understand the basics and enjoy running my locos with it. I am now almost regretting swapping my Elite for the Lenz system as I can see the Hornby Railmaster fitting nicely into my needs, might have to consider reverting to Hornby (I bet there are not many people considering swapping Lenz for Hornby!). Of course if the Hornby Railmaster system could be used with Lenz that would be great. There will inevitably be people who will berate this system, it is almost a default knee jerk for some people to knock Hornby, but I think Hornby should be praised for bringing an easy managable system to the market that will have a wide appeal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 This looks very good, i may get one. Looks easy to use too, but im a mac person so need to get a cheap PC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2011 This looks very good, i may get one. Looks easy to use too, but im a mac person so need to get a cheap PC. Can't modern Macs run Windows? Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Yeah, but i need to buy windows for mac which is £120. I've looked on Ebay i can get a pc tower for just £50. Will be getting the Elite within a few months. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Harvey Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Having seen the Rail Master software in use it is very good and does it's job well but it's not DCC Compatible in the true sense of the words as it will only work with the Hornby DCC System, and not all the other systems. Hornby have done them selves out of a lot of additional sales by not making it fully DCC Compatible. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Having seen the Rail Master software in use it is very good and does it's job well but it's not DCC Compatible in the true sense of the words as it will only work with the Hornby DCC System, and not all the other systems. Hornby have done them selves out of a lot of additional sales by not making it fully DCC Compatible. Pete Not really as people will buy the Elite specially for this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Hornby have done them selves out of a lot of additional sales by not making it fully DCC Compatible. Look at it the other way Pete. Hornby may have done the other DCC manufacturers out of a lot sales, if the addition of RailMaster makes the Elite a more attractive proposition. I think they've done the right thing, commercially speaking, by keeping RailMaster unique to their own DCC system. If they had a good wireless throttle to go with the package, they could turn themselves from "also rans" into serious contenders too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 It does look very good and well priced. I'm liking the way it looks easy to use. Looking forward to getting my one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 A note of caution Dom. The Elite is considered not that good a system. It's certainly true that certain aspects of it, such as the user interface for operating functions etc, are very badly designed. What is being said here, is that the addition of RailMaster has the potential to overcome those shortcomings, as well as providing accessible easy to use layout and train control software at low cost. That all assumes the software is any good and works properly. You will need a PC and RailMaster running to take advantage of this; otherwise the Elite on its own is still a poor choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 A note of caution Dom. The Elite is considered not that good a system. It's certainly true that certain aspects of it, such as the user interface for operating functions etc, are very badly designed. What is being said here, is that the addition of RailMaster has the potential to overcome those shortcomings, as well as providing accessible easy to use layout and train control software at low cost. That all assumes the software is any good and works properly. You will need a PC and RailMaster running to take advantage of this; otherwise the Elite on its own is still a poor choice. Well initially i was going to go for a Dynamis (don't have money for Lenz etc) But im put of by the speed control on it. I've heard some good things about the Elite but like you say some bad things. I like the double knob design a lot too. EDIT: just been looking around. Is this all you need to get going with a Lenz system?http://www.ontracks.co.uk/index.php?page=product&prodID=107324&catID=1441 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 EDIT: just been looking around. Is this all you need to get going with a Lenz system? http://www.ontracks.co.uk/index.php?page=product&prodID=107324&catID=1441 That's the Lenz Set 90 with the more basic LH90 handset. The Set 100 uses the same Command Station & Booster, but comes with the more advanced LH100 handset instead of the LH90. Whichever you choose, they both need a power supply. Lenz own power supplies will set you back approx. £41 for the TR100 and approx. £55 for the TR150. Note that the Lenz system is due for a major update in the near future (it's actually running more than 6 months late at the moment). The LZV100 Command Station & Booster is being replaced by the LZV200 and the LH100 handset is getting an update too. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.