bmthtrains - David Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The quality control debate will never properly be settled as one person's perception of quality may not be the same as another's. Certainly 'fans' of a particular brand are more forgiving for flaws and defects than the fan of a rival (just look at the Apple/Microsoft arguments for examples of that). I remember watching someone run a Dapol steam loco that was their pride and joy, being very enthusiastic about the company over Farish, yet the loco screamed as it ran around their layout and detailed on every point. To them, there was no problem. It is also down to personal experience - which can then lead on to a prejudice either for or against a manufacturer. In my case, the frankly appalling build quality of the early Dapol stock I purchased really soured my view against them, but from the 58 onwards, they seem to have really improved, and now my experience is that the inside of the model now matches the quality of the outside. That said, I have had rare cause to send a loco back to Farish for repair, and I've certainly not bought one that didn't work well out of the box. I once worked out that over the years I had issues with about 20% of my Farish purchases (in itself too high a return rate really, anything over 2% would cause alarm in most industries), but about 60% of my Dapol purchases. My experiences are purely based on Diesel/Electric, so it might be that the Farish steamers have the same quality issues as the Dapol ones, but my 'results' are inevitably distorted by the fact that my reluctance to buy more Dapol locos after my poor experiences has meant that the failure rate hasn't gone down. This year I will probably be buying the 142, HST, 86 and 67, so assuming they all run well, that would reduce the rate to 40%. This is the key issue with quality control - if you have a run of bad experiences, you are put off risking any more, so you end up re-enforcing your own view that a particular brand is to be avoided, as 'most' of the ones you bought didn't meet your expectations, even though all the ones you didn't buy might have all worked perfectly. There is, of course, a balance to be had though - to get stunning quality models given the relatively small production runs N gauge demands, is not easy if you want to keep the price down. I suspect that Dapol, as a new player, took longer to get the quality part of the equation right as it had to keep costs down to build up trade. Now they have matured as a manufacturer, their standards certainly seem to have improved. What has to be remembered though, finally, is that no manufacturer in our hobby is more 'our friend' than another - these are not cottage industries, but businesses who inevitably will do whatever they can to lower their production costs in order to maximise their margins. That production quality slips from time to time should come as no surprise given the pressures they are under in such a small market. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 My early Dapol steamers a 14xx and two Prairies are probably my best runners now. The 14xx started off brilliant and slid into unreliability but because it was so small I didn't have a screwdriver small enough to unscrew the top to get in an lube it. But now I have it's really nice again. The Prairies were rough from day 1 but I had only a small end to end so they got hardly any running. Once I got my circuit up and running though they nicely bedded in and I have to say they are my favourite locomotives now. My other Dapol steamer is a B17, lovely locomotive to look at but not sure how powerful it is but, it pulls what I ask of it without any real complaint and I expect with regular running it will get as smooth as my Prairies. Got a new Farish 08 when they retooled, not convinced it is quartered correctly so it has a bit of a waddle but seems to run fine but not as smooth as my smallest loco the 04 which is brilliant. And I think the 04 is an example of what is possible in N - tiny body but a powerful smooth hauler - if they (as in manufacturers not specific to Dapol or Farish) can do it on a budget with that why not a big thing like a 9F or a Britannia which have loads more space for a smooth reliable mechanism. I do prefer Farish mechanics which is something considering I left railway modelling for 10 years because of how unreliable and poor the Poole locomotives were and I didn't have the space to consider 4mm. Dapol are catching up though, Farish do have years of experience through Bachmann/Kader whilst Dapol appear to have been trying different things to find what suits them best. This thread is about Farish and Dapol but it has to be remembered the 4mm cousins are not immune to problems be it plastics or mechanics and it covers all the manufacturers. At the end of the day a reliable model railway is about more than just a good motor in a locomotive - it is about the quality of the track laying, the cleanliness/humidity of the environment they operate in and how the models are treated by their owners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted June 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 7, 2011 Perhaps, though a sample set of one model shop isn't necessarily representative But then you are doing something very similar by pointing out the problems you have had in a limited sample set Anyway back to the monthly Bachfarpol bashing...all any of us can do (unless we are privy to some wider trade information) is talk about our experiences (or ours and our friends). You (and others) clearly have problems, but from my point of view I can't say that I have noticed that great a difference in quality between Farish and Dapol for D&E stock. I think that where Farish have the head start is a much more stable chassis design ie consistency over time with a few tweaks eg to add better PCBs/DCC functionality, whereas Dapol have been through a programme of continuous improvement (not that IMO some of the earlier chassis needed improving). Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 But then you are doing something very similar by pointing out the problems you have had in a limited sample set Which illustrates the dangers of citing isolated examples, and therefore precisely the point! But now 8 out of 8 early Dapol 66s with trouble - that's starting to build some stats.... Cheers, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 a 9F or a Britannia which have loads more space for a smooth reliable mechanism. I think to be fair the Britannia mechanism is actually a largely solid, good design - it's more often than not the quality of assembly that leads to issues. And once running well the Britannia is one of the best steam outline models out there. Cheers, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Dapol have been through a programme of continuous improvement (not that IMO some of the earlier chassis needed improving). Yes, absolutely. However they have taken some strangely backward steps that have hindered that progress - particularly on the steam front - e.g. - 14xx with reasonably fine wheels, then the initial 9F and 220s with steamroller pizzacutters. The Q1 with an elegent little tender power connection, then the 9F, B17 with wires that are prone to breakage. The 73 with a metal block, later replaced with plastic and then haulage suffered.... As you say though, they are converging now on a single reliable chassis solution, with common motors and components - so hopefully the future will not yield the quantity of problems of previous models. Hoepfully this should also speed future releases as more common components can be carried over. Certainly the most recent Dapol D+E I've bought (2x 86 + 1x 58) have been faultless runners. Hoping the HST (currently in the post) is the same.... Cheers, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think to be fair the Britannia mechanism is actually a largely solid, good design - it's more often than not the quality of assembly that leads to issues. And once running well the Britannia is one of the best steam outline models out there. I was thinking wider than the motor as a few people have mentioned issues with having to pull the thing apart to get it working and that was really my point that you can build a tiny loco like a 14xx or an 04 shunter and they run like a dream despite their size but then the bigger locomotives with more space to do things end up inferior in some aspect. I'd love a Britannia but am put by by sufficient posts about problems with smooth running out of the box. When I first got my 08 I took it apart to get it running better and the when applying direct contact to the motor it ran without problem - put the chassis in the way and the problems started (it was the wipers in the end). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'd love a Britannia but am put by by sufficient posts about problems with smooth running out of the box. Sure, I can understand that - but really I guess what I was trying to convey is that IMHO there isn't really anything inherently wrong with the design - just the QC of assembly that can be an issue. As such you proabably have a reasonable chance of getting a satisfactory one if you were to buy. Cheers, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted June 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 7, 2011 Interestingly after reading this thread I next read the one on here about the oldest model in production where a poster refers to the Grafar 94xx model. Result is I looked on line for the model. If you look at the photos of it here is the image on a leading retailer's web site you can clearly see the running plate is seriously bent before the thing is even sent to you! That surely says something about QC in models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 5944 Posted June 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2011 It seems I've been very lucky. I've only had problems with two models in the last few years, one being a Dapol Hymek which screeched and crawled around the layout until I left it in its box for 6 months, after which it worked fine; the other being a Dapol 45xx where one of the metal tyres fell off the plastic wheel centre! Spot of glue, all sorted. Like Dr Al said, "you probably have a reasonable chance of getting a satisfactory one if you were to buy". That's what's put me off buying a Brit. Words like probably, reasonable, chance and satisfactory. I'd rather be pretty certain of getting a decent one! And I'm sure there are some good ones out there, but you only seem to hear about the poor ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZmodeller Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hi Everyone, What is apparent here is that both Farish and Dapol have QC problems and that a significant number of these can be fixed with a little adjustment. Since returning an item is costly, takes time and there is no guarantee that the replacement will be perfect anyway it pays to be patient with any initial running characteristics of a loco, check everything and adjust if necessary. By the time a loco gets here it has been around the world once anyway and would have been subjected to vibration, temperature variation and who knows what in transit. In some ways it's a minor miracle that so many locos do run straight out of the box. The only model I have returned was Jubilee which simply didn't go and on reflection I should have returned the replacement too, this has put me off the farish tender drive mechanism for the time being. I was tempted to return my Britannia but in the end it only needed more running in. I try not to let these problems spoil the enjoyment of my hobby, having visited China twice I can appreciate the difficulties both companies must have in relaying customers concerns to those who actually create and assemble models. It's a complex chain of communication and commerce that is improving all the time, and again in some ways it's amazing that most models are trouble free. As my new HST snaked gracefully around the club layout last Sunday it drew longing looks from the OO members, the comments were not about minutae but about how good it looked going around the track. Sweeping curves, close coupling and basically the same level of detail as OO created an aesthetic effect that could only be acheived on the most massive of OO layouts. Put simply, N scale is the beautiful scale. QC issues are annoying and will improve, but it must be seen from the overall perspective of British N gauge being very much ascendent, it just get's better and better. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Like Dr Al said, "you probably have a reasonable chance of getting a satisfactory one if you were to buy". That's what's put me off buying a Brit. Words like probably, reasonable, chance and satisfactory. I'd rather be pretty certain of getting a decent one! And I'm sure there are some good ones out there, but you only seem to hear about the poor ones. And this is where I think the problem is. There are probably more good Britannia locomotives than bad ones but with the advent of the internet age everyone becomes a potential reviewer and more often than not it is the negatives that see the light of day because most people won't go online to say how wonderful something is. Before the internet I would make everyday purchases via word of mouth, TV advertising and brand name - now I don't buy anything expensive without having first trawled the net for reviews - if it gets more than a couple of negatives I steer clear as more often than not the negative (those with valid acceptable reasons) are correct in their assertions. Holidays are a real pain to book now because the perception of quality is so subjective but would you stay at a hotel with lots of bad reviews about room & food quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted June 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2011 And this is where I think the problem is. There are probably more good Britannia locomotives than bad ones but with the advent of the internet age everyone becomes a potential reviewer and more often than not it is the negatives that see the light of day because most people won't go online to say how wonderful something is. Yes, it is a well accepted point that people are more than happy to complain, but few put things about how happy they are with a product. So the impression is that the negatives outweigh the positives even if that is very far from reality. Like another of the posters on here I often think that either I must be terribly lucky (or some of the posters complaining about serial failures must be very unlucky!) as I just haven't had anywhere near the problems that some talk about. OK, I don't buy steam locos but even with some of the most complained about D&E releases eg the original Dapol Voyager or the plastic chassis 73s I haven't had any problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Like another of the posters on here I often think that either I must be terribly lucky (or some of the posters complaining about serial failures must be very unlucky!) as I just haven't had anywhere near the problems that some talk about. OK, I don't buy steam locos but even with some of the most complained about D&E releases eg the original Dapol Voyager or the plastic chassis 73s I haven't had any problems. Yep, I agree, in general the majority of my N gauge purchases have been okay - not always brilliant or perfect, but after running in and the odd bit of tweaking, acceptable. In D&E terms it is unfortunately the Farish ones that have had most issues; all of my older Farish locos suffered split gears but that's now hopefully in the past, although of the newer models the class 47s were sitting ridiculously high and the class 04, 08, 14 and 3MT all suffered with poorly aligned/assembled wiper pick ups. But I didn't send any of them (Farish or Dapol) back. Kettles (both Farish and Dapol) are a different story - but thankfully I'm not a massive steam enthusiast. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I've only returned one purchase and that was a completely duff Duff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mc Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hi To be fair here I dont know what to make of this topic? All the Farish and Dapol locos that have passed through my hands worked when they came in and worked on the way out. Dont get me wrong I have had small issues with 1 or 2 locos but nothing that couldn't be fixed with 10 minutes at most. Yes, it is a well accepted point that people are more than happy to complain, but few put things about how happy they are with a product. So the impression is that the negatives outweigh the positives even if that is very far from reality. Like another of the posters on here I often think that either I must be terribly lucky (or some of the posters complaining about serial failures must be very unlucky!) as I just haven't had anywhere near the problems that some talk about. OK, I don't buy steam locos but even with some of the most complained about D&E releases eg the original Dapol Voyager or the plastic chassis 73s I haven't had any problems. Totally agree I have had an unbelievable amount of locos pass through my hands in the last year and I just dont have the issues you guys speak about. To me it seems like some are complaining just for the sake of it. We have never had it so good. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelB Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I don't think it's fair to say that anyone is complaining just for the sake of it. I've worked in professional complaint handling for most of my career and my experience is that if someone complains (with some notably often bizarre exceptions) they personally think they have a good cause for doing so (how they go about it is another question). In my own case I have only felt the need to 'complain' publically in two instances and this is one of them. I took it that the purpose of this forum was to ask for other modellers' experience to help make an assessment and in turn share our own experiences; perhaps in doing this it's evolved into some form of catharsis or a quest that we each aren't quite alone in having had in some instances a bad deal. Certainly, I was in two minds about whether I was just unlucky and should persist in giving (in particular Dapol) a chance or should I stop wasting my time and money. Sadly for the present I'm plumping for the former, especially since I've tried emailing Dapol but don't even get a response, which is plain shabby and compounds the disappointment with the now for me more than 75% failure of the models themselves. In contrast my experience with Farish has been very good, both in the reliability of their products and their customer service; with Union Mills it's been perfect. Obviously, this is not everyone's experience and I'm rather glad for those who have had much rosier time of it, espcially as I do consider that it would be a great shame if the number of players in the market were to contract but personally I've had it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Michael, Before giving up on Dapol completely it might be worth you PM'ing DapolDave on this very forum. Dapol do care about customer service and will take time to answer, if you read the HST thread you will see Dave got personally involved with Tyrone's issues and dealt directly with him to get him a replacement set which was later acknowledged by Tyrone as fully resolving the situation. Manufacturers are aware of this forum and do communicate through this site on occasion, Dapol have the most interactive relationship and you will see DapolDave posting fairly regularly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelB Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Michael, Before giving up on Dapol completely it might be worth you PM'ing DapolDave on this very forum. Dapol do care about customer service and will take time to answer, if you read the HST thread you will see Dave got personally involved with Tyrone's issues and dealt directly with him to get him a replacement set which was later acknowledged by Tyrone as fully resolving the situation. Manufacturers are aware of this forum and do communicate through this site on occasion, Dapol have the most interactive relationship and you will see DapolDave posting fairly regularly. Thank you, that is good to know. Perhaps I'll give it a try as I hope it does come across in my posts that I was pretty reluctant to write them off altogether, I'm just a bit surprised and disappointed to not get any response, yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Would be nice if the 31 was as detailed and a 6 pin socket fitted, like the others, still, maybe next year Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Of the many purchases over the last few years by myself and other club members from both main manufacturers, the only complete failure out the box was a Farish 3MT, (replaced by the retailer with another that was much better, but still not perfect). Many do require minor tweaks to perfect performance such as easing over-tightened screws, adjusting pickups or out of gauge wheelsets, as well as the recomended (ignored by some?) oiling. The most frequently recurring issue though is the deranged pickups on Farish Steam/non-bogie diesel locos. In my experience the best and most consistent performers straight out of the box are: Diesel: Farish Warship Steam: Dapol B17 (so a score draw there then... ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I 'd read that the B17 wasn't a good hauler, but I bought one nevertheless because it just looks sooooh nice. It might not be the most powerful locomotive but I echo PLD it was a nicer runner out of the box and it will chug around with 6 coach trains on my layout so I'm happy. The Warship does seem to be a very good chassis also, I would add the Peak and 24 to this as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium richierich Posted June 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2011 Have to say the mechanism have improved a lot since Farish Poole days. Most recent trouble I've had is a tight phosphor bronze bearing on a Farish 66 (need to to find a supplier of some very small diameter reamers). Still seem to have issues of gear splitting on Farish diesels (early run Class 57s are the worse), which can be caused by dirt on the teeth which when they mesh put them under stress. Dapol models seem ok, although 156 and 153s can be a little noisy. I've tried their 66, but replaced mine with Farish 66s. Not tried the 58/67/86. Wish they were better at supply spare parts, feels like Bachmann use to be about 3-4 years ago! I'm looking forward to the Dapol 56 and 142, hope they have good mechanisms. Overall if the design of the mechanism is well thought out, its well maintained and stored where there is minimal temperature variation, and spares are available there should be no issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich.B Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 My early Dapol steamers a 14xx and two Prairies are probably my best runners now. The 14xx started off brilliant and slid into unreliability but because it was so small I didn't have a screwdriver small enough to unscrew the top to get in an lube it. But now I have it's really nice again. The Prairies were rough from day 1 but I had only a small end to end so they got hardly any running. Once I got my circuit up and running though they nicely bedded in and I have to say they are my favourite locomotives now. My other Dapol steamer is a B17, lovely locomotive to look at but not sure how powerful it is but, it pulls what I ask of it without any real complaint and I expect with regular running it will get as smooth as my Prairies. Got a new Farish 08 when they retooled, not convinced it is quartered correctly so it has a bit of a waddle but seems to run fine but not as smooth as my smallest loco the 04 which is brilliant. And I think the 04 is an example of what is possible in N - tiny body but a powerful smooth hauler - if they (as in manufacturers not specific to Dapol or Farish) can do it on a budget with that why not a big thing like a 9F or a Britannia which have loads more space for a smooth reliable mechanism. I do prefer Farish mechanics which is something considering I left railway modelling for 10 years because of how unreliable and poor the Poole locomotives were and I didn't have the space to consider 4mm. Dapol are catching up though, Farish do have years of experience through Bachmann/Kader whilst Dapol appear to have been trying different things to find what suits them best. This thread is about Farish and Dapol but it has to be remembered the 4mm cousins are not immune to problems be it plastics or mechanics and it covers all the manufacturers. At the end of the day a reliable model railway is about more than just a good motor in a locomotive - it is about the quality of the track laying, the cleanliness/humidity of the environment they operate in and how the models are treated by their owners. Hi, Yes, this sounds a familiar tale with N scale loco's. I too left N scale due to the very poor early Farish products of the late 70's early 80's. I then tried N scale again around 1997/98 buying a J94 and a 57xx Pannier, absolutely hopeless running qualities so I sold everything and went back to 4mm. has to be said though it's very true of across the scales the question of quality, some of the early 00 products as you state were awful, and I've had one or two dodgy latest 00 releases. However, I must say that I had little problem at all with any of the Lima models N and 00, yet I hear so many modellers snigger when you mention Lima and totally dimiss and slate them, but I must say they were some of the best runners I had back then,beat Hornby in my opinion hands down. For example, the early Lima green class 31 N scale model ran superb whilst the GF stuff just coughed spluttered and died, literally. After watching the present N scale market the last 3 to 5 years I've been lured back to N scale after reading many reviews and being very impressed with how good and fast N has become, getting to the point of neck and neck with it's 00 competitor. I had been thinking for a while about trying N one more time and selling off the majority of my 00, but just dismissed the idea as foolish after previous experience. However, a chance win on ebay of one of the Farish/Bachmann 04 shunters and obtaining a circle of track really got me hooked and I'm really glad now, I did sell some of my surplus 00 stuff to help fund my new N scale loco's, but still have a good percentage of my 00 stuff. I must say I'm surprised at the comments regarding the 04 as this has (touchwood) been a superb running loco, so good in fact I now have two of them, and that runs really nice too. However, I must confess to some rough running with a class 08 which did suprise me as I'd bought a class 20,two 37's, a 47, and a class 108 DMU, which have been superb, a bit of a far cry from ten or so years ago. The issues with the 08 have been similar to what you describe as `a stiffness or binding ' seemed like the mechanism was tight and I put it down to being new and so put it on a test circuit for an hour or so,running in both directions. Running did seem to get better and the loco seemed to free off, however, a good few times whilst running slow, the loco would just stop running for no apparent reason, you could nudge it but nothing, then all of a sudden it would just go again. This has happened a few times with this loco, and I would say that the loco is well and truly run in now. I always make sure the track is clean as with the wheels, and connections are good so this is a bit of a mystery really, maybe it's as has been mentioned on this thread a good few times,`the pickups'. On the whole though I now have N and 00 and very impressed with much of it, as for the Dapol models, I can't really comment on these as I've not owned any of their models. It seems that eveyone seems to have different experiences, but some seem to be an all too familiar story. Regards, Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted June 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2011 However, I must confess to some rough running with a class 08 which did suprise me as I'd bought a class 20,two 37's, a 47, and a class 108 DMU, which have been superb, a bit of a far cry from ten or so years ago. The issues with the 08 have been similar to what you describe as `a stiffness or binding ' seemed like the mechanism was tight and I put it down to being new and so put it on a test circuit for an hour or so,running in both directions. Running did seem to get better and the loco seemed to free off, however, a good few times whilst running slow, the loco would just stop running for no apparent reason, you could nudge it but nothing, then all of a sudden it would just go again. This has happened a few times with this loco, and I would say that the loco is well and truly run in now. Almost certainly the pickups - check that they are all actually making decent contact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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