Kelly Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Thanks Adrian/Nick. Will have a look for something simple (regardless of type) to get started with next time I'm at a show. I've a reasonable number of years experience with doing plastic aircraft kits and wargaming figures, so hopefully I should be able to dust off the skills that have been dormant for many years and get going. One day I may even get around to building the solitary aircraft kit I didn't sell (Vulcan)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted March 20, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 20, 2011 Did you have a scale in mind? As has already been said a wagon kit is normally suggested as being a good starting point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Did you have a scale in mind? As has already been said a wagon kit is normally suggested as being a good starting point. 00 most likely, though I've worked with 1/48 in aircraft before, but space/cost likely means I need to stick to 00. kelly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 You might also want to look at this thread.....................My link I think this is a good kit to start with as it requires most of the soldering skills that you need to make an etched brass kit. It is not what I would say is simple but it is not too difficult and once you have conquered it, you will be fairly proficient at soldering. The main things required for successful soldering are: - clean components - sensible solder - something like Carr's 188, not the junk you get from the DIY store - ample flux - normally phosphoric based flux not a resin flux from the DIY store - ample heat Then, remember to tin the two components to be jointed (give them a thin coat of solder before they are put together); you then mate them up and apply heat to get the two tinned surfaces to melt and fuse together Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod2 Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Kelly's query now merged with similar existing topic. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 the [ Dragon] kits are excellent and go together with very good instructions - many of which have step-by-step photographic images. I saw them for the first time at the Bolton show. They looked very good kits with some nice details. I was drawn to the loco's as many of the kits were etched in nickel rather brass. Although the wagon kits were very tempting, if I hadn't already got half a dozen kits in the cupboard to build then I think I'd have been shelling out for a couple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Although the wagon kits were very tempting, I get talked into something new by Chris almost every time I see him (easily led astray) and he is still trying to get me to part company with cash for a loco. I have built a number of his kits and have plenty more to go. If you are starting out in kit building you do not have to stick with the scale that your layout is in. There are quite a few relatively cheap kits even in 7mm or even for OO9 on which you can apply skills and learn. At the end - if successful - you could always ebay it or place it on the shelf with a plaque labeled "My First Kit Build". The skill of adding overlays and laminations should not be treated lightly, the same as making edge joins without tabs. Both are important skills to learn and are very commonly used in the best kits - so you will need them eventually. Also the skill of soldering white metal is essential as many - if not most - brass kits contain white metal detailing. You should aim to be able to solder anything metal together and not to cop out and use glues (something intolerable to the purist) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I'm certainly not adverse to doing something out of my areas of primary interest or scale I am happy to learn and do dioramas of a particular kit even (which I've done for planes in the past to good effect). To me a model doesn't need to run necessarily. Although having said that, if it can be used by me or Natalie on any layout we come up with together, it will be better, but it isn't essential. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 You should aim to be able to solder anything metal together and not to cop out and use glues (something intolerable to the purist) Sod the purists.... .I found years ago that soldering wagon strapping is a ball-breaker. By all means solder the basic box together, but my advice is try to keep strapping as flat as possible when removing it from the fret and glue it in place with Loctite or something. A couple of coats of primer plus the wagon colour will be sufficient to keep strapping and detailing safely in place forever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted March 21, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 21, 2011 If you don't want a wagon kit then how about a signal from a company like MSE link here. They are not expensive so if it goes wrong it's not the end of the world. On the down side they can be a little fiddly so might stretch soldering skills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted March 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2011 You should aim to be able to solder anything metal together and not to cop out and use glues (something intolerable to the purist) I'm quite comfortable copping out and not being a purist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Sod the purists.... .I found years ago that soldering wagon strapping is a ball-breaker. I disagree it is all part of the challenge and certainly not beyond the average skill level. my advice is try to keep strapping as flat as possible when removing it from the fret but agree that this is the most difficult task - frequently made worse to near impossible by poor fret design (too many, too big, poor positioned tab tracers - or all three) and glue it in place with Loctite or something. A couple of coats of primer plus the wagon colour will be sufficient to keep strapping and detailing safely in place forever. That as may well be - but your conscience knows you have cheated and as a purist I couldn't live with that. Though some really silly designs come along with resin detailing ... then you are really stuffed when you try to solder that on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 That as may well be - but your conscience knows you have cheated and as a purist I couldn't live with that. You c a n n o t be serious Kenton..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 You c a n n o t be serious Kenton..... I'm afraid so - I really will not use glue when I find it easier to solder. I have a soldering iron and it was made for the job of joining metal to metal. As I have learned how to do it I cannot see why others do not. But I'll admit to also having an RSU which makes even what is a simple task even easier. To me, glue has its place - fitting incompatible materials together like resin components to metal, resin to resin and usually I will do my best to avoid resin kits. After all, wasn't the question about learning and expanding soldering skills using brass and white metal kits? So gluing is going to be really useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 So you can solder strapping in place without making a mess all over the place. I've had experience of a lot of people that can't in my job, and it ain't pretty. Think about it. After glazing a brass coach, do you solder the brass roof on afterwards? No of course not. It's about being sensible, not about being pedantic or telling people how to suck eggs. I found it hard to believe you were being serious, which is why I asked the question. Your reply and provocative last paragraph merely comfimed something I had thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 After glazing a brass coach As you may be aware from my previous posts - I do not build coaches - but would no doubt attempt to solder on the roof anyway - because that is the way I am. I have built wagons (for example horse boxes, brake vans, etc) that have glazing. In each of such cases I have never found the need to solder on roofs or even to consider gluing them. I attach the roof as "detachable" with wire clips (or strip) - I have no doubt that I would employ a similar mechanism in the case of a coach. I have in my time, seen a number of glued metal kits fall apart - I admit in each case the glue had been used for parts that you were not suggesting should be glued - eg loco chassis. As said I see no reason why all metal parts should not be soldered - it can be done. If it all about kit building then I see no excuse not to. But if it is all about creating a model in the fastest possible time taking as many shortcuts as possible then fine use glue or better still stick to plastic and resin kits. No doubt you think this strapping is a mess ? along with the roof gutters and door beading. All 100% soldered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 If it all about kit building then I see no excuse not to. But if it is all about creating a model in the fastest possible time taking as many shortcuts as possible then fine use glue or better still stick to plastic and resin kits. No doubt you think this strapping is a mess ? along with the roof gutters and door beading. All 100% soldered. Quite breathtaking.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Oh dear, I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest . Kenton I was not intending to suggest that soldering on delicate overlays is not a skill worth acquiring, I tend to solder everything I can these days, although there are occasions when I wish I'd followed my own, and coachman's, advice and glued the dratted things on . Kelly asked for suggestions for a first attempt. Avoiding too many delicate overlays is still agood idea to begin with. Kelly is much more likely to carry on and develop more advanced skills if the first attempt is successful. I was certainly encouraged by my first effort actually running and looking OK. Lovely little loco that Kenton. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Boucher Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 After all, wasn't the question about learning and expanding soldering skills using brass and white metal kits? So gluing is going to be really useful. Since Kelly has said that 7mm would be considered, might I suggest Connoisseur? http://www.jimmcgeown.com/ Nice kits, some designed specifically for the beginner. He calls them "skill builder kits", and they've been used at GOG shows for kit construction workshops. His instructions are quite extensive compared to the complexity of the kit, IMHO. You can see my thread detailing my first etched kit, a Connoisseur Loriot, on the old site: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=46653 And finished up (painting/lettering) on the current site: http://www.rmweb.co....s-7mm-workbench And my goal was exactly what Kenton says above: learn soldering skills for both brass and WM. I built the whole kit without a drop of glue. Just a suggestion. If you find 7mm too large, at least you've Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Mike, Thanks for the suggestion, looking at the pages you linked to, seems I might need to get another soldering iron as I though I had a different one to the one I have (18W), suspect I need a higher power one for brass? Those Connoisseur kits look nice, but it really depends on what my budget is at times, so OO might end up being more budget friendly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Mike, Thanks for the suggestion, looking at the pages you linked to, seems I might need to get another soldering iron as I though I had a different one to the one I have (18W), suspect I need a higher power one for brass? Those Connoisseur kits look nice, but it really depends on what my budget is at times, so OO might end up being more budget friendly. Kelly, 18 watts is a bit lightweight, even for 4mm. I would recommend a 25watt Antex with a 3mm bit. Even better is their 50 watt TC iron or a TC soldering station, but that's getting expensive for starters. This will probably start of a lot of postings about alternative and cheaper soldering irons, but I've always found Antex efficient and reliable. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I would recommend a 25watt Antex with a 3mm bit.. So would I and I bet a lot of others on here would as well. They are quite cheap, reliable, light and its easy to get spare tips. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 If I make any suggestions on here, that is all they are, suggestions. They are made in the light of experience using or doing things on a daily basis in my day job. I have three Weller soldering irons, a 25watt, 45watt and 80 watt. The smallest and largest are rarely used but are there for specific jobs, the 45watt being in use 3-5 days a week building etched brass coaches. I have forgotten when I bought this iron but I do know it has been in constant use for the past 10 years and is on for 4-5 hour stints at a time. I probably bought it from my usual supplier, Squires. A soldering iron stand with wet sponge is a must, not only to keep the tip clean but to keep burn marks off the carpet!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Those Connoisseur kits look nice, but it really depends on what my budget is at times, so OO might end up being more budget friendly. With 7mm/O kits, don't be put off by the price of loco kits. the Loco kits in 7mm are roughly double the price of 4mm loco kits but the same is not true of wagon kits. There are some very good wagon kits in 7mm for under £50 and even some under £25. I always say that a loco kit should never be a starting point. It is always more complicated. The odds are you will pick a loco you really want. It requires motor+wheels (OK wagons require wheels - but they are cheaper - and usually less of them). You have the complexity of valve gear and the added problem of engineering all the moving parts - most of which has little to do with soldering skills. I would also recommend setting aside any regional/era bias and see this for what it is - a test exercise to improve skills not to build that always wanted kit. Oh, and another vote for a 25W iron - I build kits on a daily basis in all scales. I do have other irons 80W and an RSU but the one that is switched on and running all day is my 25W. It is used for everything and I have an old 25W that I use just for white metal. None of this temperature controlled nonsense. If you learn how to solder - spotlessly clean, plenty of flux and fast application of heat with appropriate use of heat sinks, anything is possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Charon Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 A soldering iron stand with wet sponge is a must, not only to keep the tip clean but to keep burn marks off the carpet!!! Q as they say FT. I had a rug, fortunately, rather than a carpet. But it still ended up with some quite nasty burns... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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