Edwin_m Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Sometimes the moveable spectacle on a searchlight signal was worked by a mechanical pull wire from the signalbox, rather than electrically. There is one of these at Quorn and Woodhouse on the GCR. It certainly wasn't the only one, as there is an accident report mentioning children pulling the wires to give a false clear on this type of signal near Manchester. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I have seen photos of mechanical signals with arms removed, giving the effect of a colour light, but never one that had any of the essential characteristics of a searchlight signal, and I don't see how one could sensibly operate the delicate colour filter mechanism of a searchlight by a crude wire pull from a lever frame. Do you have any details or references for these? Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Discussed on the Signalbox forum here. Seems it is not a true searchlight mechanism but a semaphore-type spectacle hidden behind what looks like a colour light head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 2, 2011 Discussed on the Signalbox forum here. Seems it is not a true searchlight mechanism but a semaphore-type spectacle hidden behind what looks like a colour light head. And here it is in full glorious fairly fresh paint - if you look carefully you can see the standard spectacle plate between the lamp unit and the round sighting target. This one - on the GCR of course - is I understand something of a bitza (i.e. bitz a this and bitz a that) but is more or less to correct standards for these interesting signals. PS Such a signal was far from unique although the only ones I am definitely aware of were on the former GC line and on the former GNR main line thus making them a Southern Area of the LNER development; I don't know if any other Company used them except that the GWR didn't (or if they did I haven't yet come across any record of it) and nor did the Southern. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I don't know if any other Company used them except that the GWR didn't (or if they did I haven't yet come across any record of it) and nor did the Southern. Here is the report from the accident I mentioned in my previous post. Contrary to my recollection these were conventional single-colour lenses but controlled by nearby switches operated by wires from the box. The LMS installed them in 1936. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 And here it is in full glorious fairly fresh paint - if you look carefully you can see the standard spectacle plate between the lamp unit and the round sighting target. This one - on the GCR of course - is I understand something of a bitza (i.e. bitz a this and bitz a that) but is more or less to correct standards for these interesting signals. PS Such a signal was far from unique although the only ones I am definitely aware of were on the former GC line and on the former GNR main line thus making them a Southern Area of the LNER development; I don't know if any other Company used them except that the GWR didn't (or if they did I haven't yet come across any record of it) and nor did the Southern. ] Thank you for posting the pictures of the Quorn mechanical searchlight. My photo's are lost somewhere on my hard drive and i've spent an hour looking.. Two mechanical searchlights were built at the same time, one for me and one for the GC, mine was operational first by a few weeks but is motor operated. Quorn's is purely mechanical. I had only one correct LNER Adlake lamp and this went on the Quorn signal. These signals were quite common and i believe the last in use was at Littlebury on the GE south of Cambridge and lasted until around 1983. The signals mentioned in the Smedley Viaduct accident were multi lens signals controlled by mechanical wire. Here the existing mechanical signal wire operated the weight bar as one would expect but this operated a circuit controller that operated a local relay to change the signal aspect. (I must make me one of these one day maybe using the LNER two aspect i have). The advantage of doing this was the existing mechanical detection could be used and the signal would no longer require a fogman during adverse weather. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted May 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 2, 2011 A number of memories have been jogged by this thread. Westinghouse Brake and Saxby Signal Co made an electro-pneumatic tunnel signal in the 1920s where the spectacle plate moved vertically in front of the lamp. There is a picture in Modern Railway Signalling by Tweedie and Lascells, published about 1925. My grandfather told me of the first colour light signals erected at Birmingham New Street following an accident in the 1920s. These were a direct replacement for semaphore signals slotted by two boxes and to simplify operation were worked by circuit controllers, i think in a similar way to Smedley Viaduct. There was also a tunnel signal there which consisted of a spectacle plate without an arm which was moved in front of a light. When my Great Grandfather worked at New Street there were signals lit by gas. The lamps of those in the open were turned on at the same time as the platform lights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I do have an LNER circuit diagram i can post for a two aspect signal operated by mechanical wire if anyone is interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 ...Westinghouse Brake and Saxby Signal Co made an electro-pneumatic tunnel signal in the 1920s where the spectacle plate moved vertically in front of the lamp..... These may or may not be similar to the ones employed on the London Underground - there is a working example on display at the LT Museum in Covent Garden. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2011 These may or may not be similar to the ones employed on the London Underground - there is a working example on display at the LT Museum in Covent Garden. The WB&SSCo signals were used by at least one (and probably more?) of the London underground railways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 ... and nor did the Southern. They sort of do now, though. The new signalling installed in the Thameslink station at St Pancras is a modern searchlight, with a single aspect, and the illumination provided by multi-coloured LEDs (or fibre-optics?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2011 They sort of do now, though. The new signalling installed in the Thameslink station at St Pancras is a modern searchlight, with a single aspect, and the illumination provided by multi-coloured LEDs (or fibre-optics?) Not quite The new LED signals, which are going in all over the place as standard, are quite a different proposition from the old searchlight signals because although they only have a single lens they don't have the moving parts and beam focusing arrangement that was found in searchlight signals ... and they definitely aren't connected to signalboxes by the same sort of wire run that was used to work semaphore signals! IN fact I can't find any trace of the Southern (Rlwy) making any use at all of searchlight heads for running signals and it seems to have gone in for multiple aspect heads from the start. The GWR was - as usual - rather contrary because after starting with multiple aspect heads, albeit in a very limited fashion and on signals complete with its then standard timber posts and finials, it moved very firmly to two aspect searchlight signals which simply replicated semaphore signal indications. Incidentally St Pancras Thameslink station is very definitely out of former Southern territory (the Southern's last signalbox on the Snow Hill/Widened Lines route was Holborn Low Level according to the relevant 1934 SR appendix). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted May 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2011 Incidentally St Pancras Thameslink station is very definitely out of former Southern territory (the Southern's last signalbox on the Snow Hill/Widened Lines route was Holborn Low Level according to the relevant 1934 SR appendix). Holborn Low Level was the box at the Farringdon end of "Snow Hill" station, which controlled the 4 sidings in the tunnel. The station, AKA Holborn Viaduct Low Level was on the London, Chatham and Dover, very much part of the Southern. In BR days, before closure of the line the boundary between the Southern Region and London Underground was 5 chains from the junction at Farringdon. The new City Thameslink station lies approximately between the sites of the LCDR Ludgate Hill and Snow Hill stations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 and nor did the Southern. I am trying a long shot here - but the Southern (well the LBSC at any rate) had something very interesting at the exit from the tunnel at Brighton Kemp Town as this extract from the box diagram shows... Since they were scrapped half a million years ago, I would be surprised if anyone knows anything about these signals but I do live in hope!! Best Wishes, Howard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 10, 2011 I am trying a long shot here - but the Southern (well the LBSC at any rate) had something very interesting at the exit from the tunnel at Brighton Kemp Town as this extract from the box diagram shows... Since they were scrapped half a million years ago, I would be surprised if anyone knows anything about these signals but I do live in hope!! Best Wishes, Howard. Regrettably the man who could probably have told us died some years ago. And there is nothing in the 1934 Sectional Appendix. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Regrettably the man who could probably have told us died some years ago. Thanks Mike, and I thought as much, every day a bit more knowledge is lost to us. And the likely hood of a picture emerging is probably nil given that they were in a tunnel - the one pic I have seen taken from in the tunnel just shows the pointwork - very interesting in itself, but it does not help with the signal. Best Wishes, Howard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted May 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 10, 2011 I am trying a long shot here - but the Southern (well the LBSC at any rate) had something very interesting at the exit from the tunnel at Brighton Kemp Town as this extract from the box diagram shows... It's not the box diagram so not conclusive, is there other evidence for these signals ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Singpoint Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Regrettably the man who could probably have told us died some years ago. Indeed. He was a fountain of knowledge but a challenge to work for from personal experience. F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2011 Indeed. He was a fountain of knowledge but a challenge to work for from personal experience. F Did you work for JMW at some time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2011 Are we talking about somone I might have met once or twice? Did he write a Festiniog WTT? Did he also know about London buses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2011 Are we talking about somone I might have met once or twice? Did he write a Festiniog WTT? Did he also know about London buses? You might well have met the chap I'm referring to who was one John Wagstaff who produced the books (of signalbox diagrams etc) shown at the top of this page http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/john+m-+wagstaff/signalling+of+the+isle+of+wight+railways/5865491/ He was an (if not 'the') expert on Brighton Line signalling and had worked in the S&T Dept on the Southern (I think he had a lot to do with the Three Bridges scheme?) before coming over to the Western as CS&TE Schemes Development Engineer at Reading. He had also been out in West Africa at one time as the Operating Supt of one of the railways there (I forget which). A smashing bloke but never one to suffer fools - gladly or otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2011 You might well have met the chap I'm referring to who was one John Wagstaff who produced the books (of signalbox diagrams etc) shown at the top of this page http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/john+m-+wagstaff/signalling+of+the+isle+of+wight+railways/5865491/ He was an (if not 'the') expert on Brighton Line signalling and had worked in the S&T Dept on the Southern (I think he had a lot to do with the Three Bridges scheme?) before coming over to the Western as CS&TE Schemes Development Engineer at Reading. He had also been out in West Africa at one time as the Operating Supt of one of the railways there (I forget which). A smashing bloke but never one to suffer fools - gladly or otherwise. Yes, one and the same. Can't recall the precise circs, but he was in our Croydon flat one evening in the mid-70s, and I recall discussing the details of Eastbourne station roof - a la Vivien Thompson! I always found signal engineers to be interesting company, and wish I'd seen more of him, certainly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2011 Yes, one and the same. Can't recall the precise circs, but he was in our Croydon flat one evening in the mid-70s, and I recall discussing the details of Eastbourne station roof - a la Vivien Thompson! I always found signal engineers to be interesting company, and wish I'd seen more of him, certainly. Small world isn't it? Not long after John moved to Reading he lodged just round the corner from us so he also spent an evening at our place. I worked with him on numerous schemes off & on over the years some of them never seeing the light of day while others had changed a bit before they finally emerged and some actually went right through from inception to 'still working today' with virtually no changes in between. The last work we did together, apart from my Avonmouth imported coal schemes, was the 'Reading Re-modelling Working Party' which if I remember rightly got underway in about 1991/2 and basically fizzled out with the arrival of Railtrack although some of the features which were put into that work - in some cases from John's original thoughts - appeared on the ground nearly a decade later; stuffed away somewhere I have a complete set of drawings from what was more or less the final results of the Working Party. John was a very original thinker and came up with some wonderful ides over the years - the Preliminary Junction Indicator partly came out of his thoughts but one of his more interesting ideas was Track Circuit Block without continuous track circuits (no axle counters either) but it was dismissed by the BRB on the grounds of evidence showing that fully fitted divided freight trains didn't always do what they ought to do. John's office cupboards - which followed him around the railway - were an incredible mine of signalling history going right back to early original Saxby & Farmer drawings while his 'paperweight' was a McKenzie & Holland finial. I understand that following his relatively early death his archive was put in the hands of the SRS - I hope they've looked after it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2011 The SRS - an org that I ought to join (if they'd have me!) - site certainly lists the Wagstaff Bequest, and has plenty of details of what it contains, so I think they know how valuable this stuff is. Pre-Grouping signalling diagrams do have a certain cachet! Going even further off-topic, SRS seems well-endowed with Southern data, as the Cullum - presumably Dennis of that ilk - collection seems to be substantial, and there are others, too. Hillier is presumably Brian, aka the Snail, who was another fine signal engineer (the Magic Roundabout nickname in no way reflected his intellectual capacity or scheme development potential!), while yet another collection is from a former office colleague, whose real name seems to have been lost in time - you learn things when you see a chap's payslip! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Singpoint Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Did you work for JMW at some time? Although we seem to be way off topic, I did indeed work for/with John in the early 80's in Reading drawing office. F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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