Michael Delamar Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share Posted August 6, 2012 before I read your description I couldnt tell what scale it was, superb! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Thanks Michael. The body isn't totally square and I managed to file off some detail when I was shaping the corner plates whilst I wasn't concentrating but I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. It should look even better once it's been painted and weathered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Here's something for the thread that's recently rolled off the workbench (not onto the floor though!). It needs painting but has since been primed. A 16T rarity, one of the few vacuum fitted rivetted examples built by Cambrian Wagon Works as part of lot 2806 in the late fifties. Very nice indeed, one wonders what BR thought it was doing with these! The only photo I have of them is here http://bit.ly/MZPR2V B261650. Pete Fidczuk reports the number series as 261509-1714 Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 some that are well worth a look. good detail colour shots at Toton in 1964. http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5549687205/in/faves-45827152@N07/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5550269708/in/faves-45827152@N07/ 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 One more in that sequence too: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5549686545/in/faves-45827152@N07/ Colour balance is a bit off, but the right hand one is interesting for the new door and number patch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 some that are well worth a look. good detail colour shots at Toton in 1964. http://www.flickr.co...s-45827152@N07/ http://www.flickr.co...s-45827152@N07/ The inevitable repeats are bound to happen, but from just 1 page back… http://www.rmweb.co....650#entry733841 But they’re definitely worth a second look just so I can mention... again, the cleats (with strings still tied) welded to the doors and panels of the 16 tonner next to the 08. Porcy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Very nice indeed, one wonders what BR thought it was doing with these! The only photo I have of them is here http://bit.ly/MZPR2V B261650. Pete Fidczuk reports the number series as 261509-1714 Paul Bartlett Thanks Paul. I wondered just how many out of that lot were built with vacuum brakes. I've only ever seen two photos of fitted 1/109s, the one on your site and there's one of B261662 in 'Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era' by David Larkin. My model is a composite of the two. B261662 had self contained buffers but you can't tell what type of end door it had and I liked the pressed steel door on B261650 so I combined the bits that I liked out of the two. I wonder what BR was doing with a lot of the wagons it built in the fifties and early sixties! There seemed to be an awful lot of muddled thinking going on. Take the clasp braked 16T minerals. A couple of hundred riveted examples for no reason in particular and a couple of thousand 1/108s and 1/117s that were built without vacuum cylinders or pipes. Expensive brakegear for an unfitted mineral. I also can't figure out the 1/114 conversions that appear on your website. They were built unfitted with two shoe Morton brakes in 1951 yet someone saw fit (presumably in the late fifties) to go to the expense of converting them to clasp brakes and fitting vacuum cylinders and pipes when BR had the afformentioned 1/108s and 1/117s already with the clasp brakes. Was there something special about the 1/114s? Just seems a bit odd! Edited August 7, 2012 by jjnewitt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 40011 being removed by 37098 at Healey Mills - 18th August, 1975 (2) by Deadmans Handle, on Flickr 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 40011 being removed by 37098 at Healey Mills - 18th August, 1975 (2) by Deadmans Handle, on Flickr Nice. Top door plated over on the first couple. One's a Coal 16-marked wagon, the other is a single black panel. What really sticks out - quite literally - is the door banger... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) About 5 years ago I wanted to update some Bachmann 27t Iron Ore Tipplers by giving them 1970s style data panels stating either ORE or MSO using Fox blank data panels and their sheet of numbers and letters to complete. Suffice to say that numerous other projects have got in the way since but as I am currently on holiday and waiting for Modelmaster to receive their new 16t transfer sets I decided today to use the Fox transfers on a repainted Bachmann 16 tonner. After about 2 1/2 hours I now have one wagon with all transfers done and ready for weathering. Below are a photo of the blank data panels and a photo of one of the two data panels I have managed: The COAL 16 used 100mm high letters/numbers on the full sized wagon The wagon number was 75mm high The tonnage and first tare numbers were 60mm high The remaining tare numbers were 45mm high That makes the smallest numbers a ridiculous 0.6mm high in OO. Personally I'm amazed that the panel is as good as it is, the tare numbers on the other side were done without a magnifying glass and are pretty bad. I now know that my life and patience are too short to do any more. I don't mind a bit of wagon renumbering but I can wait for the Modelmaster transfers to do the data panels on the other three 16 tonners. Edited August 14, 2012 by Flood 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Consider me a complete uneducated novice in terms of 16t wagons - after all they are BR (modern in my normal modelling) and have thus never raised an eyebrow. Despite there common use in the real world and on models I guess little has sunk in. However, the "new" layout does require virtually nothing but 16t minerals so of course I was drawn to this topic. I've just ploughed my way through this excellent thread - on and off it has taken me a day to read - especially having to pop out to other sites for the linked images and being further distracted. In the most part it has been very interesting, answered a few questions and for the most part has been over my head. Remember I know nothing. So bearing that in mind please humor me a little with a few questions (I have many more - most of which will seem stupid here and would be better asked elsewhere) 1 Way back at the start of the topic it was asked which is the best model Bachmann or Parkside? It was never really answered. I will go one further. not only which is the best of these two but are there any prototypical errors on any of the models? Mainline, Hornby, Airfix, Bachmann, Parkside .. are there any others? 2. back in Previous post there were 3 photos posted by Keith of minerals at Sutton Manor. in the middle photo one of the 16t appears to be riding high at the back. What would cause this? Is it simply weight distribution, that seems unlikely as the front is no lower than the adjacent wagon. 3. While going through some of the excellent images on Paul's site trying to tell the difference between one diagram and the next (without much success) I found this one What does the horizontal (no diagonal) white stripe signify? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard of the Moor Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 3. While going through some of the excellent images on Paul's site trying to tell the difference between one diagram and the next (without much success) I found this one What does the horizontal (no diagonal) white stripe signify? My guess is that it denotes the wagon as being an internal user one and thus not to be mixed with BR revenue stock. In other words, it's a reminder to the shunters to keep the wagon on site. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted August 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2012 2. back in Previous post there were 3 photos posted by Keith of minerals at Sutton Manor. in the middle photo one of the 16t appears to be riding high at the back. What would cause this? Is it simply weight distribution, that seems unlikely as the front is no lower than the adjacent wagon. I think it is just an uneven road! Look at the rails between it and the nearer wagon and they have clearly sunk into the ground. The far side rail is also visibly sunken. I could even speculate that the sleepers may have spread here too! Kev. (I agree, an excellent thread this one.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I think Kev is right. I'm not so sure about it riding high, I think it's more that the other end is down - if you look at the rail about where the gap is inbetween the wagons and then follow it towards the camera, it goes down noticeably. I think the wagon is just starting to go down this little slope and so the back is pointing up a bit. Good spot though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Oh, and regarding Parkside v Bachmann, I always thought the general concensus was that the Bachmann RTR version is about 95% of the way there, and so while you could build a load from Parkside kits, the question becomes one of if the extra effort is worth the improvements or are there more important things in life and/or modelling? Personally I wouldn't touch the Hornby or Mainline ones seeing as the Bachmann one is widely available. The only comment about the Bachmann version is that they appear to be produced in batches, typically twice a year (from my incomplete observations) in Spring and Autumn, and they can sell out reasonably quickly, so grab a handful while you can. The Airfix kit is popular, cheap and perfectly serviceable. I too am not an expert, this is just info I've collated in my brainbox from reading other's views. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 My guess is that it denotes the wagon as being an internal user one and thus not to be mixed with BR revenue stock. In other words, it's a reminder to the shunters to keep the wagon on site. For the same reason, other NCB sites used a big, white, St Andrew's Cross on the sides of the wagons, as well as lettering for NCB and 'for internal use'. I suspect the NCB were hedging their bets with regards to the literacy levels of some of their staff... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Consider me a complete uneducated novice in terms of 16t wagons - after all they are BR (modern in my normal modelling) and have thus never raised an eyebrow. Despite there common use in the real world and on models I guess little has sunk in. However, the "new" layout does require virtually nothing but 16t minerals so of course I was drawn to this topic. I've just ploughed my way through this excellent thread - on and off it has taken me a day to read - especially having to pop out to other sites for the linked images and being further distracted. In the most part it has been very interesting, answered a few questions and for the most part has been over my head. Remember I know nothing. So bearing that in mind please humor me a little with a few questions (I have many more - most of which will seem stupid here and would be better asked elsewhere) 1 Way back at the start of the topic it was asked which is the best model Bachmann or Parkside? It was never really answered. I will go one further. not only which is the best of these two but are there any prototypical errors on any of the models? Mainline, Hornby, Airfix, Bachmann, Parkside .. are there any others? Prototypical errors? You mean apart from the gauge? Errors? Hmmm... not a great deal, methinks. As has been said earlier, the Bachmann offering is pretty sweet. I'd like them to have internal detail; door joins etc.. but apart from that all I can think of is that the cross shaft for the brake levers is a bit on the light side, and the grab handles on the end door need replacing, and the corners need a quick increase on the radius to my eye, but I have several in the works queue for converting to P4. Of course, the other thing is how non-standard a supposedly standard design gets... axleboxes, pressed brake levers etc. etc.... which is where Paul's wonderful resource comes in handy Dive in.. there's lots of scope for titivating the excellent Bachmann datum 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Prototypical errors? You mean apart from the gauge? Well let's not go there my layout is OO (possibly the defacto standard) so that is a done deal. I was thinking about more glaring defects like for example the wrong length/width, brakes completely wrong for the diagram (I can live with them not working) or perhaps too thick a plastic used. Lack of interior detail is a fault that may be remedied or alteratively there is always a load of coal. Possibly the biggest issue with the RTR variety is if you are going to have to put on new decals and a whole load of "weathering" then you might as well start with a kit? Building the kit in terms of time is relatively short compared to painting - at least in my world. I have a PD 1/108 (as a feeler) and there can't be more than 20 parts to stick together. Unless replacing the underframes with something brass is suggested (along with other "improvements" then it all comes down to choosing paint and finishing with some effects to mimic real weathering. Much the same position as with the RTR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Possibly the biggest issue with the RTR variety is if you are going to have to put on new decals and a whole load of "weathering" then you might as well start with a kit? Building the kit in terms of time is relatively short compared to painting - at least in my world. I have a PD 1/108 (as a feeler) and there can't be more than 20 parts to stick together. But in the case of standard mineral wagons you need quite a few on practically any layout. Why not use the trade offering for the few more common types and just do the minimum of individualisation and save your time for kits of the less common varieties. Cambrian do a few. Then you can start to mix and match welded and riveted doors etc. Health warning it can be addictive. Bernard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Cambrian do a few. I was not aware of that, not seen their 16t minerals mentioned yet in this thread. In fact the only kits I have heard of are the four PD kits (PC19, PC21, PC27 and PC54) and the old Airfix one. Are there others. And only plastic kits? No w/m or brass? If the Bachmann one is so good then I can see that there is a place for them though would be concerned if a mix would show them up - there was a mention earlier of the wheel differences and a photo of one alongside a PD kit where the buffers looked quite different. Though any Bachmann example would require a coupling transplant at least (assuming NEM pocketed that should require negligible effort) and swapping buffers for something with a bit of give not too difficult (buffer source?), but now we are back to the same issue - making all these changes to the RTR and we may as well build a kit, Then if there is any desire to replace the underframe with a sprung example then all you end up using is the 5 sided box. Not to mention all the hassle of cutting up the RTR wagon and anguish of doing it to a brand new item purchased in pristine condition. Edited August 16, 2012 by Kenton Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Kenton, Cambrian do the ex LMS and LNER versions. C8 and C10 in their list. These can be adapted to depict various BR types. The doors are interchangeable with Parkside Dundas kits. There was a series of articles in one of the mags on mineral wagons, early MRJ possibly. Worth finding these or some book on the prototype. This should show the range of details that can occur and give an idea as to the numbers of each type required to get a balanced stock. Plus a prolonged browse of Paul Bs invaluable photo collection. Of course the period you want to depict will have a major impact as to the mix and condition of the wagons. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Kenton, Cambrian do the ex LMS and LNER versions. C8 and C10 in their list. These can be adapted to depict various BR types. The doors are interchangeable with Parkside Dundas kits. There was a series of articles in one of the mags on mineral wagons, early MRJ possibly. Worth finding these or some book on the prototype. This should show the range of details that can occur and give an idea as to the numbers of each type required to get a balanced stock. Plus a prolonged browse of Paul Bs invaluable photo collection. Of course the period you want to depict will have a major impact as to the mix and condition of the wagons. Bernard Thanks, will look up the appropriate MRJ. In my case though a "balance of numbers" may not be appropriate as they will be in NCB use. No long trains either as the model is a 6ft plank and shouldn't look overcrowded. Already onto Paul's site - which is how I happened on that question regarding the white stripe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I was not aware of that, not seen their 16t minerals mentioned yet in this thread. In fact the only kits I have heard of are the four PD kits (PC19, PC21, PC27 and PC54) and the old Airfix one. Are there others. And only plastic kits? No w/m or brass? Hi Kenton, No brass or whitemetal, I think. As Bernard says, Cambrian do the pre-1948 versions from the LNER and LMS. I've not tried them yet, but they're on my horizon... If the Bachmann one is so good then I can see that there is a place for them though would be concerned if a mix would show them up - there was a mention earlier of the wheel differences and a photo of one alongside a PD kit where the buffers looked quite different. Though any Bachmann example would require a coupling transplant at least (assuming NEM pocketed that should require negligible effort) and swapping buffers for something with a bit of give not too difficult (buffer source?), but now we are back to the same issue - making all these changes to the RTR and we may as well build a kit, Buffers you can get from a couple of places... I think the top of the heap in these appear to be the ones from Lanarkshire Models & Supplies, but MJT do a range, and just the heads if you just want to replace that... then there's Alan Gibson's version, but I've found the quality on the casting to be disappointing on some I've got. And 51L do heads and springs... Then if there is any desire to replace the underframe with a sprung example then all you end up using is the 5 sided box. What.... you mean like this? That's a Bill Bedford underframe (available from Eileen's) and Craig Welsh's lever guard. Not to mention all the hassle of cutting up the RTR wagon and anguish of doing it to a brand new item purchased in pristine condition. Nope. You're right. The good thing about this is, it's your railway. You can do what pleases you. But don't settle for just a Diagram 108....variety is the spice of life! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) There was a series of articles in one of the mags on mineral wagons, early MRJ possibly. Worth finding these or some book on the prototype. Bernard Hi Bernard, Kenton Peter Fidczuk did the business back in 1991: Modellers Backtrack Volume 1, No. 3. The 16ton Mineral Wagon. Part 1: Prewar and wartime designs. Modellers Backtrack Volume 1, No. 4. The 16ton Mineral Wagon, Part 2: Later Pre-Nationalisation developments. Modellers Backtrack Volume 1, No. 5. The 16ton Mineral Wagon, Part 3: Developments under British Railways. There's others... Don Rowland, Geoff Kent, David Larkin... The MRJ's are 54 to 57 inclusive... Issue 86 might be worth a squizz... Edited August 16, 2012 by Jan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 don't forget... The Airfix '2 Bob Mineral' improved - MRJ Issue 47 (1991) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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