TV Cameras on board locos

[mcjlf1]

Hi,

 

I was just wondering if anybody had any experience of installing a miniature TV camera(s) on board a model loco to allow a 'real-time' driver's eye view to be had, and even for one to drive the layout from the cab...

 

For example (and I'm thinking for O gauge diesels as a starting point);

 

- miniature camera mounted in one (or both) cabs in the driving position

- camera broadcasts a signal to a local TV monitor adjacent to one's controller area

- camera/transmitter power supply independant of track voltage (i.e. to allow operation on DC systems) - suggesting battery powered or battery backed up device.

- camera interchangeable with minimum effort for switching between different locos (or 'channel switching' available on monitor to allow choice between multiple cameras in more than one loco).

 

It seems that these days there are various miniature video cameras/systems around, but I haven't been able to find one which allow the above to be achieved.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks

James

[Coldgunner]

From what I've seen of the behind the scenes stuff and model wunderland in hamburg, they use camera's mounted inside HO scale trains. Not sure what they actually use though.

[DaveF]

I know someone who fitted a camera into an n gauge bogie van a while ago and who has now managed to get one into an n gauge loco. It gives live images to his laptop.

 

david

[martin_wynne]

There is a commercial system available from:

 

http://www.branor.co.uk

 

Thus is N Gauge:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnqZAkeUZMU

 

Martin.

[Nile_Griffith]

Hi there.

 

A live feed would require some sort of RF transmission with a fair bit of bandwidth to carry even a full standard definition TV signal. There are quite a few cheap Chinese "security" type components around but these are usually either b/w at something approaching an acceptable picture. Or if in colour, something like 325 lines 12 frames per second (approximately). For a visual check of something it's sufficient, but for a constantly moving image at the sort of quality you's be happy to watch they are a bit of a non starter.

 

Also having sufficient room within the cab of a loco to fit some form of lens, electro/optics, transmitter and power regulation supply would be a bit of a squeeze also. Reliable transmission and reception would also push the price up quite significantly and assuming you could adequately contain the optics and electronics to within a small enough package to give you an acceptable flutter free colour image. I reckon you'd be hard pushed to see much change out of a grand.

 

The potential for such stuff lies in the are of miniaturised camera's with built in wifi and very minimal power draw. However you are still up against the fact that a SD TV signal is quite a lot of data to move.

 

The Branor device without looking at their website I am guessing is probably some on board camera + record device. I've seen people put flatbed wagons in front of OO/HO gauge loco's and manage to secure some very small digital stills camera that have been able to shoot to video files.

 

However I would concur with Dutch Master. I think that after the initial thrill and gimmick of the process. The inconsistencies with both the layout and shooting video in variable circumstances would make a polished product very hard work.

 

Prefer the idea of taking a God like view of a layout rather than try to be in amongst it myself.

[HLT 0109]

James,

 

I use a cheap (<£10) key-ring video camera attached to a well-wagon on my 00 gauge layout. The results are similar to those shown in the Ensbury 1.avi above. I tried a small CCTV camera and it was hopeless - again a cheapy at £20 or so. The CCTV camera itself was quite good and about 25mm cube run from 9v battery (so the well-wagon was useful) but there was awful distortion as soon as the wagon moved - with or without power - so I gave up. To get a driver's view I have to push the well-wagon in front of the loco but I prefer to put it somewhere in the train and turn the camera a little to one side thereby getting the view of a passenger looking out of the window. If you were able to mount the camera inside an 0 gauge loco you would need to be able to remove the recording medium from it in order to be able to view the results. The problems with the Key-ring cameras is that you cannot see what you are recording; the controls are minimal and confusing (sometimes resulting in nothing being recorded) and you do need to edit what has been recorded - as indeed with any video recording.

 

I agree with Nile_Griffith that the novelty does wear off but it is an added dimension to an absorbing hobby.

 

Harold.

[sixteen 12by 10s]

Saw a system operating on the London underground layout“abbey road” the other weekend at Railex NE.

Just think, if a “live” system reached reliable operation, the whole concept how we operate layouts could change.

The image could be displayed to the “driver” who would then react to conditions and signals, set by the “signalman”, starting to starting to sound like a real railway?

Gary

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I have actually watched a colour video taken on the McKinley Railroad. This apparently was a small video set up mounted on a wagon in front of the loco. Fascinating to watch and about ten minutes long ( it takes that long to do a circuit of this layout ) and according to the owner, was purchased for little money in Maplins.

 

I have looked in Maplins and not spotted anything that small and my layout is undeserving of such treatment. McKinley is professional built but for most of the video, you know you are on a model railway whereas watching this layout in operation is anything but unrealistic.

 

I take enough videos of the real thing and end up deleting them soon enough.

[jamie92208]

Bradford City Road is a DCC layout that's on Show at Gildersome tomorrow (Saturday 10/9/11). Neil Burrows who runs it tried this with a tiny video camera mounted in a loco cab (00) This transmitted to a monitor and he then let someone drive the loco while watching the monitor. Apparently it took a bit of getting used to but did work and gave a very different view of the layout so it can be done.

 

Jamie

[beeman]

Some time back came across this site as trying this myself using the keyring type cam.Contacted the poster and below his reply.

 

 

 

Thank you for your comments. The A4 cab shots and the deltic cab shots were taken using one of the very small radio cameras, and recorded onto MiniDV tapes. These only have a resolution of about 200 lines and they suffer very badly when they go near any metal. The cab shots on the Black 5 video were filmed on one of the small thumb sized cameras that record to microSD cards. The one I bought was about £12 from ebay. It is however NTSC and 4:3 aspect ratio and it records in AVI. I edit in Final Cut on a Mac so I transfer all the AVIs to Quicktime movies, and transcode into PAL from NTSC, and do a format conversion to get them into 16:9 to mix with my regular 3 chip cameras. If you film in PAL land there is now a PAL version of this camera but I think it is about £60.

If there is any thing you would like to know just ask

http://thesouthcoast...om/contact.html

 

 

 

 

My interest was triggered as the close up quality seem quite good compared to the 640x480 res, from my keyring cam. I think that on having to open up the cam due to the card becoming stuck, There is a focus adjustment internally, can anyone confirm, not tried to adjust myself, but if the foreground is sharp the results look far better. In my endevours I mounted the cam on a 'converted' wagon with some lead ballast for stability. And as stated previously, one can sometimes see what you dont see from your normal viewing positions, entertaining/challenging all the same.

Try this if interestedhttp://www.ebay.com/...#ht_2948wt_1176 Think you need to buy the mini card separately though, and while you can change the time/date cannot get rid except by edit/crop., correct me if anyone found out if poss.Must admit impressed by the resolution of the Branor demo vids on the post by martin-wynne. does anyone know what camera it uses. Beeman

[Nile_Griffith]

Hi Beeman.

 

Just a quick question. You mention in your posting that you re-format from 4:3 to 16:9 screen format. Have to admit that I find that the stretching effect is visually jarring (circles are now ovals that are short and fat), especially if cut/edited with native 16:9 footage.

 

Regards.

 

Nile.

[spamcan61]

Do you need to reformat from NTSC to PAL? Most PCs and DVD players can cope with either I should think. I too find stretchyvision jarring (although the rest of the family are happy with oval circles), I assume the SW can add black bars or maybe even 'pan and scan' these days.

[beeman]

Hi Beeman.

 

Just a quick question. You mention in your posting that you re-format from 4:3 to 16:9 screen format. Have to admit that I find that the stretching effect is visually jarring (circles are now ovals that are short and fat), especially if cut/edited with native 16:9 footage.

 

Regards.

 

Nile.

Sorry not me the paragraph was the reply via email I received from the South Coast Railway site I have edited the post, hoping it does not confuse. Beeman

[spamcan61]

A couple of previous discussions on the subject:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34827-micro-video-cameras-and-cctv-on-layouts/

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/26479-mini-dv-camera/

[Nile_Griffith]

Hi Beeman!

 

thank you for clarifying that and my apologies..... I really should make sure I pick up on the first line properly.

 

Spamcam !!! Yep you are quite right that most computers will happily cope with .AVI's originated via NTSC or PAL. However when incorporating them into such video edit platforms as 'Final Cut" it makes sense and saves a lot of heartache to import the .avi file into the edit project within Final Cut, in the projects format standard. So if the majority of your material is shot in PAL then you would transcode from NTSC into PAL for use in a a PAL edit project. It then means that cuts, dissolves and any other transitions between scenes have a chance of coming out right. Then when the project is finally rendered and laid off. You can then transcode the final edit back to NTSC2 (Never The Same Colour Twice) or leave it in PAL (Possibly Alright Later).

[noiseboy72]

You really need a diversity (Twin aerial) receiver to remove the dropout and multipath distortion. a digital system would be even better. Many cheap systems to not use a particularly stable transmitter and suffer form massive de-tuning issues as they move closer to metal, capacitive plastic, sources of interference etc...

 

Ebuyer.com have little cameras for less than £10 that record onto micro SD cards. Quality is excellent for something the size of your thumb.

 

Please be aware that many of the imported radio linked cameras are illeagal to use in the UK. They must be type approved 2.4GHz or 5.8GHz, not the usual 1.3GHz.

 

It is worth looking for CCD not CMOS cameras, as these handle vibration and fast motion with less tearing and distortion.

[Eagle1711]

We have one of the Branor Cam Trucks and tried it around our layout.... at first the light on the camera seems abit yellowy if that makes sense but soon changed once we set off around the layout. Im putting this down to the fact that we have a 6ft fluorescent light hanging just above our secenic section....so might unplug that and try filming again some time.

 

 

This is what the Branor Cam Truck looks like above and the video below

 

http://www.youtube.c...bed/HUXE-T-lvGk

[John Geeee]

I played with a mini DV cam and put a couple of vids in one of my blog sections at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/126/entry-2605-20-welcome-to-wagcam/

Its a bit on the big side but I thought the quality was not too bad, maybe not as cheap as some "keyring" types available.

Cheers

John Geeeee

[RAF96]

Maplins has just advertised '...the smallest wireless camera in the world...' in a recent newsletter (I deleted it so I've no link to it now) and I can't find it on their web-site yet.

It claims a 2 hour battery life and 100m range and its not much bigger than a £-coin, but at £99 its a tad expensive for playing with.

Rob

Found the link http://www.maplin.co.uk/smart-i-the-worlds-smallestmini-wi-fi-camera-528650

[Talltim]

I thnk the bioggest issue with onboard cams isn't the technical side, its that layout tend to be ddesing to be viewed from outside, and often only from one side.

Viewing the layout from inside, on the track means that all the of the full sized background, which is nomally screened off, becomes apparent.

[jonhall]

Saw a system operating on the London underground layout“abbey road” the other weekend at Railex NE.

Just think, if a “live” system reached reliable operation, the whole concept how we operate layouts could change.

The image could be displayed to the “driver” who would then react to conditions and signals, set by the “signalman”, starting to starting to sound like a real railway?

Gary

 

I fairly regularly operate Abbey Road, and I often 'watch' the drivers eye view when driving - its often easier than seeing where the train is on layout when parts of the structure, and other operators are in the way (and it can be done sitting down ).

 

The drawbacks, currently only one train that is camera fitted can be viewed at a time, and camera's are only currentlu fitted at one end - I think to make the idea really work you would need automatic switching between ends, and to have a method of switching between multiple trains. I guess you could get around that by using diodes to the feeds, and by having all the camera's on one level all using the same frequency - in theory only the 'live' train would send picture form the forward end.

 

The other drawback is that the camera takes track voltage, and only functions when the train is in motion - as you slow down to stop the camera signal dissappears, just when you need it most. I think this would be fixed if you went DCC, or some sort of 'stay alive' capacitor.

 

The quality of footage is not good enough to want to record.

 

Jon

[GWMark]

I tried to do something similar with one of the wireless security cameras that are often on ebay, direct for Hong Kong mine cost me about £15. The quality isn't great, getting a stable picture can be an issue, the tuning on mine is a bit poor. Also you need a lot of light for these sort of cameras. The attached video was done with the layout lighting gantry that we use at exhibitions, so there was a lot of light. For these I used a 9v battery and put the camera on a flat bed truck propelled by the loco.

 

 

With less light you get a greenish image, at least with this camera.

 

 

Fun to play with, and interesting to try driving a train from this viewpoint, but my results at least, were not as good as I would have hoped. Maybe a better quality camera would have helped.

[beeman]

Try having a look at the Keyfob cameras on Amazon. Memory card will cost more than the cam. Anyone successfully managed to alter the focus distance to closer on similar, I think there is some adjustment on the factory preset lens, I found they could do with being a bit sharper in closeup,which might be possible. Beeman,