To use sound or not?

[cravensdmufan 1,458]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Agreed, but that wasn't the point Vivien was making.

There are some sounds which are part of F1. The best example I can think of is the start-up procedure for a diesel or electric, where you may have the sound of a priming pump, starter motor, compressor etc automatically play before it settles to its idling sound. Because these are part of the same function, they cannot be adjusted individually.

 

Separating these out to different functions may work for some but definitely not all of them.

I don't think it was intended as a criticism either. It is something which I had never previously considered & does not bother me. I simply understand that some may view it as a minor bugbear.

Yes Pete, that is exactly the point I was trying to make.  It is a few of the elements in some sound projects that cannot be adjusted by CV change that I sometimes find are too loud.

 

It's as if certain sounds (e.g. a brake release) have been recorded close up with a microphone and then superimposed at a higher level over the basic engine sound. A question of balance really.

 

I operate my layout as if I'm looking at the trains from a distance, so don't really like to hear loud elements that would be heard when standing right next to a loco. 

 

But that is my only slight criticism.  Overall I have been delighted with the concept; after all I have purchased a good few and fitted most of my traction.

[cravensdmufan 1,458]

10 hours ago, charliepetty said:

It is possible to change individual sound levels on Loksoound V5 Decoders, our new Class 117 below shows this.

F 0 Lights On/Off.

F 1 Engines On/Off. ( To start second engine - notch up then notch down ).                   CV259=128

F 2 Playable High Note Horn.                                                                                                    CV435=128

F 3 Playable Low Note Horn.                                                                                                     CV443=128

F 4 Buffering Up when moving (Coupling, sound when stationary).                                  CV283=90

F 5 Playable Brake Application (when moving), Vacuum Dump (when stationery).        CV291=120

F 6 Random Passengers Doors slamming (Multiple Door Slams).                                     CV299=100

F 7 Engine Rev Up (when stationery) Gear change (when moving).                            

F 8 Toilet Flush & Discharge (Not in Stations!!!!).                                                                   CV315=70

F 9 Variable Speed Flange/Wheel Squeal (When Moving)                                                    CV323=100

F10 Guards/Despatch Whistle.                                                                                                 CV331=60

F11 Guard to Driver 'Right of Way signal' Buzzer, plus optional reply.                             CV339=40

F12 Cab Window Wipers.                                                                                                          CV347=60

F13 Auxiliary Heater.                                                                                                                 CV355=70

F14 Handbrake ON Warning buzzer.                                                                                     CV363=40

F15 Fire Bell/Buzzer (Fire test before starting).                                                                    CV371=50

F16 Handbrake Apply (On).                                                                                                     CV379=110

F17 Handbrake Release (Off).                                                                                                 CV387=110

F18Speed dependant, flash enabled warning Detonators (3 Bang Stop).                      CV395=128

F19 Directional Cab Light (With Autofade).                                                                          CV427=128 

F20 AWS Warning Siren/Bell.                                                                                                  CV411=50

We also offer on this project, user changeable features:

CV155 to 0 for high horn type A

CV155 to 1 for high horn type B

CV155 to 2 for high horn type C

CV155 to 3 for high horn type D

CV156 to 0 for low horn type A

CV156 to 1 for low horn type B

CV156 to 2 for low horn type C

CV156 to 3 for low horn type D

CV157 to 0 for fire bell type A

CV157 to 1 for fire buzzer

CV157 to 2 for fire bell type B

CV158 to 0 for handbrake type A

CV158 to 1 for handbrake type B

CV159 to 0 for AWS type A

CV159 to 1 for AWS type B

CV159 to 2 for AWS type C

CV160 to 0 for handbrake warning buzzer type A

CV160 to 1 for handbrake warning buzzer type B 
 

DRIVING TIPS ON THIS LEGOMANBIFFO PROJECT:

You can change up through the gears manually. You can stay in the same gear for as long as you like and the revs will steady at the constant speed you have selected on the throttle. The easiest way to gear change is to reduce the throttle to a low value, and once the revs have started to drop off, increase the throttle to select the next gear you want. There are several gears, selected by how far up your initial throttle movement is. Once the engine has set off in the gear you want, re-adjust the throttle for the actual speed you want. It's much harder to explain than to do in practice, but once you realise how it works you can drive it how you like, in a very realistic manner. The highest speed setting (the one featured in the video) has an automatic gear change part-way through, but you don't have to use that at all if you don't want to, and you can do 'normal' gear changes before or after it.

 

Hope this give you an idea what's possible.   Charlie-Legomanbiffo

 

 

Thanks for that comprehensive reply Charlie.

 

I did actually purchase your latest  DMU project, which you loaded onto an 8 pin micro decoder  for one of my Bachmann 105s.

 

It is one of my best purchases to date.  You and Bif have got all of the sounds balanced just right on this one.

 

[Gopher 5,170]

2 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

Yes, I think the quality of the speaker is one of the most important factors.  A good speaker can transform a project.  Problem is, sometimes it's difficult to find room to fit it in.

 

But nowadays there are some really good ones out there that are quite small with really nice tone.

 

I would agree that diesel sounds have always been pretty good, but from what I've heard and seen on video clips, steam is improving all the time.

I agree.  I am a big fan of DCC sound, and have been running sound fitted locos for quite a few years.  I have purchased sound decoders and sound projects from all the main after market providers ( as well as sound equipped locos from Hornby and Bachmann).   In my experience the sound projects from most of the after market providers just get better and better, allowing more proto-typical control and sounds to match.   They are also much easier to install in newer locos.  My first steam projects involved me hard wiring the decoder into the loco and then having to alter the internal dimensions of the body or chassis to fit a speaker.

 

Decoders are so much better, and speaker technology has improved.  So some steam projects with decent speakers are actually very good, and have caught up with the quality of some diesel projects.  It is of course a personal choice.  I find it brings a whole new dimension to operating my layout.      

[cravensdmufan 1,458]

I wonder if it may be interesting to set up a poll regarding DCC sound?  But I don't know how to set one up!  Is it just moderators that can do that Andy?

 

For example, DCC users, - do you have sound yes or no?  All locos fitted or some?  Do you intend to fit all eventually? Do you consider it an essential part of DCC operation?  Are you generally pleased with it?  etc. 

 

I think it would be interesting to get an overall view of what people think.

[cravensdmufan 1,458]

Another thing;  it's always been difficult to properly hear before you buy.  Especially since there are no exhibitions at present (which naturally we all hope we can get back to once pandemic situation eases hopefully next year). And model shops that stock them and that will demonstrate them are few and far between.

 

Some manufacturers/providers upload their offerings onto YouTube, and layout owners (including myself) have tried to capture footage.  But quality is variable, and not all parts of the sound project are always featured.  YouTube videos often don't do them justice.

 

If one is going to spend £110 - £120 plus the cost of an upgraded speaker, it's a big sum to invest if you're not sure.

 

Indeed some of my attempts at uploading may have put some potential buyers off!

 

It's a tricky one.....!

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Spelling

[charliepetty 3,093]

On 24/11/2020 at 11:28, cravensdmufan said:

Thanks for that comprehensive reply Charlie.

 

I did actually purchase your latest  DMU project, which you loaded onto an 8 pin micro decoder  for one of my Bachmann 105s.

 

It is one of my best purchases to date.  You and Bif have got all of the sounds balanced just right on this one.

 

Thank you.    We arte constantly reviewing our projects, the Class 68 has just been re-worked, to be followed the SR EMUs & DEMUs and then the Class 142, 143 & 144 (To suit the new Realtrack models.

 

We are currently working on 3 New projects in conjuction with Heljan.

 

Charlie

[charliepetty 3,093]

22 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Another thing;  it's always been difficult to properly hear before you buy.  Especially since there are no exhibitions at present (which naturally we all hope we can get back to once pandemic situation eases hopefully next year). And model shops that stock them and that will demonstrate them are few and far between.

 

Some manufacturers/providers upload their offerings onto YouTube, and layout owners (including myself) have tried to capture footage.  But quality is variable, and not all parts of the sound project are always featured.  YouTube videos often don't do them justice.

 

If one is going to spend £110 - £120 plus the cost of an upgraded speaker, it's a big sum to invest if you're not sure.

 

Indeed some of my attempts at uploading may have put some potential buyers off!

 

It's a tricky one.....!

 

 

The New Class 37 attached:

 

[woodenhead 11,515]

That sounds good on YouTube, quite bassy, I think we can safely assume it sounds even better in real life.

[cravensdmufan 1,458]

1 hour ago, charliepetty said:

The New Class 37 attached:

 

That sounds fabulous.  Which of the Legoman Class 37s is it please?  I think I'll treat myself!

[Kaput 232]

6 hours ago, charliepetty said:

the Class 68 has just been re-worked,

 

Ooooo, whats changed on it and when's the new one available? (I take it the updated project will be V5 only?)

[charliepetty 3,093]

On 25/11/2020 at 13:34, cravensdmufan said:

That sounds fabulous.  Which of the Legoman Class 37s is it please?  I think I'll treat myself!

Its the Class 37/4WH (West Highland) with an EM2 Speaker.

 

Yes it sounds cracking.  Just like a real 37 !!   Charlie

[Foden 449]

Digging up a month stagnant topic to give my two pence here..

I appreciate the matter of sound is very subjective, so there's no right or wrong, just opinions based on individual preference. I've read a lot through the years about how sound doesn't scale, so can't be realistic, and that's why it doesn't appeal to some. I completely understand that, yet I absolutely love sound, it's consumed my interest to the point that, like many others, I don't run non sound fitted locos anymore, other than for testing.... why?

Because, for me, having sound on a locomotive isn't about trying to be absolutely realistic, sound is about adding another level of immersion. Standing 6 feet away, I may hear a sound fitted model much more clearly than I would a scale distance, but where does that stop? I could apply the same logic and say that standing a scale distance away I wouldn't see the edge of a baseboard, a backscene with static clouds, the same static vehicles, people, and other props that would, in reality, be fully animated and constantly evolving the scene.

What I get from hearing the sound, is another level of 'feeling' what that moment is imitating. A non sound fitted Class 37 pulling a rake of wagons away to the gentle sound of a motor buzzing doesn't provoke as much suggestion to the power of the prototype struggling, slipping, and battling, as a well driven sound example does. Whether the scale of the sound is realistic, or not, is not the defining sensation to me, but having another layer of performance presented to me, the viewer makes me feel more present in that illusion of a reality.

Previously, without sound, my imagination filled in the gaps, and depending on how vivid one's imagination can be depends, I suppose, how real that feels. Now my imagination doesn't need to manifest as much content, it only needs to reign in the disbelief of that content, re scale of sound etc. It's the same way my imagination dials out the view of the kadee couplings hanging off rolling stock, or the way the track doesn't continue its trajectory after the scenic break etc. I stopped caring deeply about pursuing absolute realism when I recognised that reality isn't built on a 6ft baseboard, what matters more is about the feeling it gives me, and that's often born from nostalgia.

Do I still seek out non sound presented exhibits at shows? absolutely I do, this hobby is about much, much more than just sound, and there's a hell of a lot of modelling eye candy to feast on. What was true for me 10 years ago, is still true to me now, but given the option, for my own layout, I'll only ever run sound fitted locos, I've been spoilt by them, anything else just doesn't really live up to it. 

[Donw 14,051]

17 hours ago, Foden said:

Digging up a month stagnant topic to give my two pence here..

I appreciate the matter of sound is very subjective, so there's no right or wrong, just opinions based on individual preference. I've read a lot through the years about how sound doesn't scale, so can't be realistic, and that's why it doesn't appeal to some. I completely understand that, yet I absolutely love sound, it's consumed my interest to the point that, like many others, I don't run non sound fitted locos anymore, other than for testing.... why?

Because, for me, having sound on a locomotive isn't about trying to be absolutely realistic, sound is about adding another level of immersion. Standing 6 feet away, I may hear a sound fitted model much more clearly than I would a scale distance, but where does that stop? I could apply the same logic and say that standing a scale distance away I wouldn't see the edge of a baseboard, a backscene with static clouds, the same static vehicles, people, and other props that would, in reality, be fully animated and constantly evolving the scene.

What I get from hearing the sound, is another level of 'feeling' what that moment is imitating. A non sound fitted Class 37 pulling a rake of wagons away to the gentle sound of a motor buzzing doesn't provoke as much suggestion to the power of the prototype struggling, slipping, and battling, as a well driven sound example does. Whether the scale of the sound is realistic, or not, is not the defining sensation to me, but having another layer of performance presented to me, the viewer makes me feel more present in that illusion of a reality.

Previously, without sound, my imagination filled in the gaps, and depending on how vivid one's imagination can be depends, I suppose, how real that feels. Now my imagination doesn't need to manifest as much content, it only needs to reign in the disbelief of that content, re scale of sound etc. It's the same way my imagination dials out the view of the kadee couplings hanging off rolling stock, or the way the track doesn't continue its trajectory after the scenic break etc. I stopped caring deeply about pursuing absolute realism when I recognised that reality isn't built on a 6ft baseboard, what matters more is about the feeling it gives me, and that's often born from nostalgia.

Do I still seek out non sound presented exhibits at shows? absolutely I do, this hobby is about much, much more than just sound, and there's a hell of a lot of modelling eye candy to feast on. What was true for me 10 years ago, is still true to me now, but given the option, for my own layout, I'll only ever run sound fitted locos, I've been spoilt by them, anything else just doesn't really live up to it. 

 

I very much like that explanation. To me  I remember the days of steam and there was a lot of noise so having some noise seems so much more natural. It is also things like the whistle. When lving in Minehead we would hear the whistles about a mile away from the station they gave an indication of what was going on. Now we can here a lot of whistles from three stations and you can tell when they are climbng the bank to Washford. When Bittern came to the WSR even Marion noticed the difference ( that's a funny whistle was her comment). No it is not perfect but it does add to the effect.

 

Don 

[RJS1977 4,053]

18 hours ago, Foden said:

 I could apply the same logic and say that standing a scale distance away I wouldn't see .....a backscene with static clouds....

 

'Where Seagulls Dare' has moving clouds (and a lot of other things) and isn't even DCC...  ;-)

[charliepetty 3,093]

On 25/11/2020 at 18:35, Kaput said:

 

Ooooo, whats changed on it and when's the new one available? (I take it the updated project will be V5 only?)

The updated one has all new traction motors, cab sounds and subtle changes on certain featires.

 

Charlie

[Erixtar1992 1,104]

34 minutes ago, charliepetty said:

The updated one has all new traction motors, cab sounds and subtle changes on certain featires.

 

Charlie

Look forward to hopefully hearing a sample on your new youtube channel charlie.

[Albie the plumber 64]

If you can put up with 'train set ' curves , tension lock couplings and the infamous 'Hand from the sky' , I doubt scaling of sound will matter.

Its just one more compromise , one I'm happy to accept .