London Bridge re-development

[The Lurker]

Technically they are open now - its just no trains are scheduled that way yet as the current timetable was written while London Bridge was still being rebuilt!

 

What is currently proposed is that as individual drivers officially become passed out on the route via London Bridge and Met Junction more and more trains will start to to head via London Bridge instead of trundling round the south London suburbs to get to Blackfriars via Tulse Hill*, etc. Any trains that do run via London Bridge will pause there so that their running time between Blackfriars and East Croydon is the same as that taken by trains running via Tulse Hill. This means that while driver training is ongoing if a driver turns up at East Croydon / Farringdon and they don't yet sign the London Bridge route, they can still go via Tulse Hill and not wreck the timetable.

 

By the next timetable change in May, all drivers should be fully trained up in the new London Bridge infrastructure and at that stage there will be a fairly hefty revamp of Thameslink (and Southern) services with much quicker journey times again possible due to trains being able to utilise the direct and fast run via Forrest Hill and not have to trundle round south London as they do now.

 

* Note, most trains from Brighton, etc do not stop at Elephant & Castle precisely because it would screw up the above plan which has to take into account the route knowledge issue and the intention to gradually migrate back to the London Bridge routing over several months.

this has made me look more closely at the National Rail Journey Planner. I had idly put in the LBG-BFR journey yesterday morning while putting off doing work. It indicated that there was a train around 11 o'clock in the morning with no changes. Now I look more closely at that particular train (10.55) it suggests walking as the way to get between the stations!

[phil-b259]

this has made me look more closely at the National Rail Journey Planner. I had idly put in the LBG-BFR journey yesterday morning while putting off doing work. It indicated that there was a train around 11 o'clock in the morning with no changes. Now I look more closely at that particular train (10.55) it suggests walking as the way to get between the stations!

 

As I said earlier given the fluid situation as regards driver route knowledge its impossible to guarantee any particular train will go via London Bridge. If they were shown as going that way on national rail enquiries (or similar) then Thameslink would be fined for missing out London Bridge should the driver not yet have the route knowledge.

 

As noted due to the big time saving if going via London Bridge as opposed to the 'round the houses route via Tulse Hill, Thameslink trains will have to stop and wait somewhere so they fit into the current timetable at Croydon / Faringdon if going via London Bridge - and the most logical place to do that is in platforms 4 / 5 at London Bridge itself!

 

The way the migration back to the London Bridge route is being done is sensible and ensures that come the May timetable change everything will be in place for the official switchover with train crew (and indeed the infrastructure) having been thoroughly prepared / tested.

[Ron Ron Ron]

More photos of the new London Bridge Station.

 

Far too many photos to re-post, so follow the link to this page on the SkyScraper City forum.

Scroll down the page for more.....

 

Click Here

 

 

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[Peter Kazmierczak]

Still can't figure out why they use such small lettering over the entrance, unless the Borough's planning department refused something more appropriate.

 

Looks like N-gauge lettering on a O-gauge model.

[Siberian Snooper]

That looks to be a huge improvement on what was there before, it will have to wait until Railex before I can go and have a look, by which time Thameslink will be back in action.

[jim.snowdon]

That looks to be a huge improvement on what was there before, it will have to wait until Railex before I can go and have a look, by which time Thameslink will be back in action.

It is. London Bridge is at last a single station that looks the part, rather than being the wreckage of two independent and largely ancient stations joined together, sort of. And at the same time the back door bottleneck that Thameslink had to put up with has finally been dealt with.

What will go largely unremarked is that it has been a long and complex project that has gone as planned.

 

Jim

[AndrewC]

Station looks good but its going to take people a while to adjust to the minimum platform space. Previously, platforms 1-6 had toilets, coffee, etc. This and the lack of concourse space led people to gather on the platforms. Now they are minimalistic and people are still crowding onto the platforms rather than wait in the bowels of the station. It will take time. 

 

One other downside is platforms 1-9 now have their entry/exit near their mid points. That means a rather hefty hike to the tube station now compared to just going down the ramp and a short escalator. Swings and roundabouts. 

[DY444]

What will go largely unremarked is that it has been a long and complex project that has gone as planned.

 

Jim

 

More or less to plan.  Phases of the Southern station hand back were a shambles with the traction bonding problem, unworkable timetable and capacity issues. 

[number6]

The old station was a cramped and compromised on the SE side, and an damp echoey mausoleum on the Brighton side, now its the worst of both! I hate to say it but I think that this station has become a freezing hole, I saw that little brass band and worried for their fingers playing in there...

 

I guess it suits someone we have to traipse past loads of shops to get between tube and train, and when in the big hole it takes so long to get onto the platforms. And when you arrive on them the platforms are narrow, wet, windy and cold most of the time.

 

If this is a place of interchange between Southern or SE and Thameslink - how long does it take to cross from adjacent platforms? Must be at least a few minutes? Down those huge escalators and back up again. In the old days you could cross platforms via the bridge in a few seconds [and get a coffee]. The lack of a high level bridge is a big mistake - as is not creating a pedestrian bridge over to London Bridge [the actual bridge] as this still involves either a road crossing or over that funny little bridge under the arches which I think is staying put?

 

The harsh lighting and crappy materials, which are already showing signs of damage, make for a rather depressing experience. It may be an engineering marvel and I commend the skill in rebuilding it while still in use but something went wrong in making it a good 'customer experience'. There maybe lots of wood around but we wander around on concrete paving, with grey metal everywhere, that nasty bright white light - maybe fashion will turn around agin and a warmer, softer more comfortable station will be rebuilt here in say 50 years of so?

[Mike Storey]

More photos of the new London Bridge Station.

 

Far too many photos to re-post, so follow the link to this page on the SkyScraper City forum.

Scroll down the page for more.....

 

Click Here

 

 

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It certainly looks fantastic compared to the old station, which I used for several years and worked at for a few in the 70's, in the station announcers' bothies on the SE and the Central. The widespread use of train departure summary screens is a huge improvement.

 

I can see some criticism on that thread and one or two on here about the surfacing of the main concourse, not being glossy enough and too utilitarian. I look forward to seeing it in person someday, but does anyone have any architectural views (as opposed to "I just don't like it")? I have my own, having been party to specifying and project managing/sponsoring many shiny new floors at stations in the past, and I also recall all the problems we had with them. Airports and shopping centres seem to manage with them, although I have still seen many slips and falls at both, especially in wet weather, and their footfalls generally are in a minor league compared to LB.

[Fenman]

It certainly looks fantastic compared to the old station, which I used for several years and worked at for a few in the 70's, in the station announcers' bothies on the SE and the Central. The widespread use of train departure summary screens is a huge improvement.

 

I can see some criticism on that thread and one or two on here about the surfacing of the main concourse, not being glossy enough and too utilitarian. I look forward to seeing it in person someday, but does anyone have any architectural views (as opposed to "I just don't like it")? I have my own, having been party to specifying and project managing/sponsoring many shiny new floors at stations in the past, and I also recall all the problems we had with them. Airports and shopping centres seem to manage with them, although I have still seen many slips and falls at both, especially in wet weather, and their footfalls generally are in a minor league compared to LB.

 

This comment is based on the photos, so may well be proved rubbish when I experience it in the flesh, but I didn't think the floors looked out of place. The approach reminded me of some of the best of the 60s stations - somewhere like Harlow Town, for instance, where the surfaces that had to do hard work (floors, walls) were of hard-wearing and unglamorous materials, while the surfaces that could be seen but would not have to work so hard were made out of much warmer, richer materials - like the ceilings, which were mostly of varnished wood.

 

Someone above has commented on lighting: for me, pretty much every new public environment is far too harshly lit, though of course there are people with sight problems who need high levels of lighting. Equally, those of us who are short-sighted tend to be light-sensitive, so it's a much less enjoyable atmosphere for us. Hard to get the balance right. Then again, the strips of fluorescent lights at the apex of the arches underneath the platforms are, architecturally, unforgivable. The base of the arch springers are already lit with uplighters, which look rather lovely. The clunky, industrial fittings on the arches are completely out of place and spoil what should be a spectacular architectural feature.

 

Outside, I liked the textured brickwork that some others have found horrible. I think it's an obviously modern intervention, different from the historic parts of the station, but using traditional materials in a modern way. Nice (reminds me of the lovely green tiled wall used in the new station at West Hampstead - traditional railway station materials, but used in a modern way).

 

The double arrow logos look stupidly small to me, and I am not at all persuaded by them being double-sided (and, hence, appearing the wrong way round from one side). Someone commented on them being like one side of a funnel on Sealink ships - which is true. But those were always the exception, for sound maritime reasons.

 

I'm still sceptical about a design which has awnings along each platform rather than an overall roof. Especially in the lee of the Shard, where there will be turbulence and, hence, rain blown onto the platforms. It would have been more expensive to have an overall roof, but it would have been a much improved customer experience.

 

So while the scale of the achievement looks epic (and LB was long overdue a restructuring), the details look a bit less than they could have been.

 

I look forward to using it.

 

Paul

[Mike Storey]

 

I'm still sceptical about a design which has awnings along each platform rather than an overall roof. Especially in the lee of the Shard, where there will be turbulence and, hence, rain blown onto the platforms. It would have been more expensive to have an overall roof, but it would have been a much improved customer experience.

 

So while the scale of the achievement looks epic (and LB was long overdue a restructuring), the details look a bit less than they could have been.

 

I look forward to using it.

 

Paul

 

I agree with all you have said, but, whilst an overall roof would have been very nice, I am not sure how it could have been built economically or relatively quickly without shutting the entire station (or at least each side of it) for prolonged periods. A primary requirement of the project was to keep the station open for the maximum possible. I also doubt the arches could have supported such a structure without considerable extra intervention, although less of an issue on the Central side it is true.

 

If we look elsewhere, I do not recall any done in the UK over an operating railway station.

 

Abroad, I recall those that have been done that have required total closure of the area affected during the works. cf Zurich, Liege-G, Rotterdam Centraal (partial), but I also recall that the new Berlin station roof was built whilst trains continued to run, but I believe the whole project took over 20 years? How was the new Melbourne Southern Cross station roof built? Anyway. all pretty academic as far as LB is concerned!

 

 

Incidentally, I remembered the new station at Arnhem, which if you look at the pictures in this link, the main hall has a striking architectural similarity with LB - wooden fascia roof, slick concrete wall work and non-glossy floors! https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/dec/07/arnhem-netherlands-new-railway-station

[jamie92208]

If we look elsewhere, I do not recall any done in the UK over an operating railway station.

  

I]

Wasn't the new Leeds done with most of the station still operating. From pictures the 60's roof was installed with the station still open and I think the current one was as well.

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

Regards an overall roof.

It would have been much nicer, bearing in mind the British climate, but I can understand the problems and no doubt huge cost that may have gone with such an option.

However, what about relatively lightweight cover, bridging between the platform canopies?

On the central part of each platform, there are bridging structures in place, between adjacent platform canopies. 

Why not have these along most of the length of each platform, with a lightweight covering material, as used elsewhere?

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

More or less to plan.  Phases of the Southern station hand back were a shambles with the traction bonding problem, unworkable timetable and capacity issues. 

I put the timetabling issues down to Southern, rather than the Thameslink project, the capacity was going to be what it had to be given the physical constraints of the site and the staging, and the negative bonding problem - that was an error, but in the grand scale of things, hardly showstopping. I know they haven't quite finished yet, but the project team will deserve a pat on the back once the job is done. The down side is that whilst they may get recognition in the industry, that sort of success will never make the press - it doesn't sell newspapers.

 

Jim

[Fenman]

...

If we look elsewhere, I do not recall any done in the UK over an operating railway station.

...

 

Wasn't Farringdon's new overall roof built over a live railway? Much smaller scale, of course.

 

Paul

[bbishop]

It is. London Bridge is at last a single station that looks the part, rather than being the wreckage of two independent and largely ancient stations joined together, sort of. And at the same time the back door bottleneck that Thameslink had to put up with has finally been dealt with.

What will go largely unremarked is that it has been a long and complex project that has gone as planned.

 

Jim

 

Jim,

 

Actually three stations.  There were originally four terminating platforms north of the overall roof (ending up with just one) and these were the Greenwich Railway station.

 

Bill

[bbishop]

 and people are still crowding onto the platforms rather than wait in the bowels of the station. It will take time. 

 

 

Ok, and just wait until the new South East franchise, and DafT's plan that all Hayes and almost all Main Line suburban and Sidcup trains will run to Charing Cross - and all Greenwich and almost all North Kent and Bexleyheath trains run to Cannon Street.  So there will be South East interchange as well as Southern and Thameslink.  I can foresee the platforms becoming rammed, the escalators taken out of service, the concourse rammed and trains running through the station on safety grounds.

 

Yippie?!?!?

 

Bill

[phil-b259]

Station looks good but its going to take people a while to adjust to the minimum platform space. Previously, platforms 1-6 had toilets, coffee, etc. This and the lack of concourse space led people to gather on the platforms. Now they are minimalistic and people are still crowding onto the platforms rather than wait in the bowels of the station. It will take time. 

 

One other downside is platforms 1-9 now have their entry/exit near their mid points. That means a rather hefty hike to the tube station now compared to just going down the ramp and a short escalator. Swings and roundabouts. 

 

This has been remarked on before - and once again I repeat that a train carriage only can carry a finite number of people. With Charing Cross / Cannon Street AND London Bridge all having exits at the front of the train (during the morning peaks) you would find everybody trying to cram themselves into the front 4 coaches of a much longer train. This caused delay and also the large gatherings of intending passengers bunged up the platform sections closer to the ramps making it harder to move along the platform.

 

The current setup with the platform access being in the middle of the train - and with the actual stairs / escalators pointing fore and aft will encourage commuters for London Bridge to travel further back down the train and not try and cram into the front with Charing Cross / Cannon Street passengers. Yes it means a longer walk to the Tube or the bus station - but its all under cover so I really don't see the problem.

 

As a 'passenger group', Commuters are one of the rudest, impatient and selfish bunch of travellers out there. Just because the new layout at London Bridge means they have slightly longer to walk, have to think about purchasing refreshments before accessing the platforms and can no longer sprint up the ramps / over the footbridge to make last minute connections does not entitle them to any sympathy in my book.

[phil-b259]

Ok, and just wait until the new South East franchise, and DafT's plan that all Hayes and almost all Main Line suburban and Sidcup trains will run to Charing Cross - and all Greenwich and almost all North Kent and Bexleyheath trains run to Cannon Street.  So there will be South East interchange as well as Southern and Thameslink.  I can foresee the platforms becoming rammed, the escalators taken out of service, the concourse rammed and trains running through the station on safety grounds.

 

Yippie?!?!?

 

Bill

 

this has long been a bone of contention on South London suburban services - and the choice is quite stark - either you have a high frequency service to ONE London termi or relatively infrequent services to many (which also increases that chance of reactionary delays spreading from one route to another.

 

If it really vexes you that much start a local campaign group and start lobbying your MPs - because as the Wimbledon loop decision showed, if a good enough campaign is run, the ministers are quite happy to issue edicts that keep the status quo, even i that does increase the chances of service disruption and prevent increases in frequencies.

[Ron Ron Ron]

More photos of the new London Bridge Station.

 

Far too many photos to re-post, so follow the link to this page on the SkyScraper City forum.

Scroll down the page for more.....

 

Click Here

 

 

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A whole load of new photos have been added to the page linked to above.

Taken and posted today (Friday 5th Jan).

 

Click here and scroll down.

 

 

 

 

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[Mike Storey]

Wasn't the new Leeds done with most of the station still operating. From pictures the 60's roof was installed with the station still open and I think the current one was as well.

 

Jamie

 

Only very partially Jamie, but I suppose that is the nearest we have had. You will recall we had to build new temporary station platforms well to the west to accommodate some services, and about half the through platforms were closed at any one time as the roof progressed, with the EC services using the bays most of the time. Several of the through platforms were turned into temporary bays and moved as the roof moved. We had to ensure a through route was always safeguarded to Neville Hill (and for York services), which dictated the roof, OLE and platforms/tracks re-configuration construction plan, but even this was impossible in certain periods. Thank goodness we had the space to build the two extra platform bays to the north. before which we had to move and re-build the long stay car park. You may recall that was the time we had many 125's the wrong way around, because they were having to access NH via a reversal at York.

 

But, it illustrates that maybe it could have been done at LB, that's true, but at what greater level of disruption and cost, I know not!

[DY444]

I put the timetabling issues down to Southern, rather than the Thameslink project, the capacity was going to be what it had to be given the physical constraints of the site and the staging, and the negative bonding problem - that was an error, but in the grand scale of things, hardly showstopping. I know they haven't quite finished yet, but the project team will deserve a pat on the back once the job is done. The down side is that whilst they may get recognition in the industry, that sort of success will never make the press - it doesn't sell newspapers.

 

Jim

 

The timetable problem was caused by NR's flawed capacity modelling.  Southern just took the paths on offer

[jim.snowdon]

Jim,

 

Actually three stations.  There were originally four terminating platforms north of the overall roof (ending up with just one) and these were the Greenwich Railway station.

 

Bill

Thank you, Bill. I'd long known about the odd platform that existed between the LBSC train shed and the high level side of the station but not appreciated its origins.

 

Jim

[gribble]

As a daily user of south eastern for the past 6 years there is simply no comparison between the old and new stations. I find criticism of the new setup interesting given it's a huge improvement on what came before.

 

Yes, there was an overbridge in the old station between platforms. Yes it provided quicker and easier access between platforms, but I think people are forgetting that mostly it didn't provide quick access as it was rammed full of passengers all pushing each other to get through or vainly looking at screens trying to work out if their train was going to arrive or not. In rush hour if was a total nightmare. I'll admit it would be nice to have an overbridge and the new ground level concourse.

 

Yes, there was a direct route through to the tube at the end of each platform but this was for most of the day a complete disaster area. The walking distance from either end of the mainline platform to the tube platform is pretty much the same only the route has changed. Now you have 2 sets of escalators and you dont hit a wall of commuters hurtling towards you from the other direction. The single exit at the end of the platform lead to people constantly running for trains that stopped 70m down the platform that they wouldn't catch, knocking people over on the platforms as they went. All the passengers alighting at London Bridge amassed in the front 2 carriages for quick exit making dwell times at prior stations longer because passengers couldn't board. The situation at Lewisham inparticular for 2 hours every morning and evening was complete joke with passengers forcibly keeping the doors open with the signals at green. All the CX bound trains used to sit in the old London Bridge platform 5/6 with people still trying to get off as the conductors were blowing the whistle and the train doors were closting for departure leaving passengers trying to get on running down the platform to try and find a door without people still trying to get off. There was no regard for passenger safety and regularly there were people caught in the doors or people who wanted to get off at London Bridge who ended up at Waterloo East.

 

Yes the platforms are not as wide as they once were, but there are more of them so instead of thameslink and charing cross services sharing the same platforms, they now have dedicated platforms, ie fewer people waiting on each platform.

 

As a passenger I want to get home on a train, not hang about in a station. The track layout of the old London Bridge contributed to snarl ups causing thousands of people to accumulate in the station waiting areas only there weren't any for the SE section, the new track layout reduces the likelihood of this happening in comparison and the new ground level concourse provides somewhere for passengers to wait. The purpose of the modifications is to increase reliability and reduce delays and waiting times for passengers. Bravo. At least now if there are problems on one of the approach lines, the remaining lines are still potentially viable. I spent many extra hours sat on a train outside London Bridge waiting to get home or to get to work simply because an apparently unconnected event had caused a seize up at London Bridge. Now if there is an issue with TL I presume CX and CS services continue regardless, and vice versa.

 

*gribble*