TCS DP2X-UK in a Bachmann Pannier- setting up for shunting

[melmerby]

Hi Keith,

I thought I tried and failed to fit a Lenz standard in my crab a year or two back, hence the DP2X. You want to help me with this please, where did you put it?

Bob

Remove the weight at the front, fabricate a replacement from lead sheet leaving a slot in the middle (approx 2.5mm wide) replace weight, place decoder in slot, including some insulation, fold excess wire back over motor - Bingo!

 

The original weight was 28grams, the lead replacement (with slot) was 32grams so everybody wins.

I did the same with the weight in the current Bachmann Hall, the new lead weight although narrower was as heavy as the original and had room for a decoder (where Bachmann intend it to be.)

I also fitted a decoder (actually a TCS M1) in a Hornby Dean Goods (tender drive) by replacing the original cast weight in the boiler with lead about 2/3rds size and putting the decoder in the space created.

 

Keith

[250BOB]

Thanks Keith.... the weight is critical for me as I do have gradients, only 1 in 80, but knife edge all the same. I really would like to get a Lenz standard in it if at all possible, and in my black 5 too. I have some thin lead flashing... You have talked me into it. When I fitted the DP2X decoders a couple or 3 years ago, I wasn't brave enough to cut and hack, but I'm ok know, so here goes.

Thanks......Bob

[melmerby]

Thanks Keith.... the weight is critical for me as I do have gradients, only 1 in 80, but knife edge all the same. I really would like to get a Lenz standard in it if at all possible, and in my black 5 too. I have some thin lead flashing... You have talked me into it. When I fitted the DP2X decoders a couple or 3 years ago, I wasn't brave enough to cut and hack, but I'm ok know, so here goes.

Thanks......Bob

In started with TCS decoders because of the then reasonable price and convenience, but using TrainController I find they will not speed profile properly and the output voltages are inconsistent with the controller setting as when increasing the speed steps they aren't always the same when coming back down.

 

I made the weight about the same shape and size as the original apart from the slot, the curved top is needed to get under the boiler top.

One of my next projects is to improve a DCC fitted (R8249) Hornby M7 which I bought at a reasionable discount. Hornby remove one of the weights to get a decoder down the side, making the perfomance somewhat iffy on a gradient!

 

Keith

[250BOB]

 

In started with TCS decoders because of the then reasonable price and convenience, but using TrainController I find they will not speed profile properly and the output voltages are inconsistent with the controller setting as when increasing the speed steps they aren't always the same when coming back down.

 

I made the weight about the same shape and size as the original apart from the slot, the curved top is needed to get under the boiler top.

One of my next projects is to improve a DCC fitted (R8249) Hornby M7 which I bought at a reasionable discount. Hornby remove one of the weights to get a decoder down the side, making the perfomance somewhat iffy on a gradient!

 

Keith

 

My pal has a couple of M7's, both with DP2X decoders......but he has a weight problem. He models Bournemouth West Terminus, and is asking his M7's to do the 6 coach ECS work in and out of the station.......they really struggle to get going, and thats on the level.

If you have any thoughts he would be extremely grateful.

 

Thanks again for your advice on the Crab.....will take it apart this week and see what I can do.

 

Bob

Bob.

[melmerby]

My pal has a couple of M7's, both with DP2X decoders......but he has a weight problem. He models Bournemouth West Terminus, and is asking his M7's to do the 6 coach ECS work in and out of the station.......they really struggle to get going, and thats on the level.

If you have any thoughts he would be extremely grateful.

 

Thanks again for your advice on the Crab.....will take it apart this week and see what I can do.

 

Bob

Bob.

0-4-4s will always be a problem due to the large amount of body overhanging the non driven carrying wheels.

 

If I can get the remaining original weight out without damage I will use lead again to add as much weight as I can in either tank side and try and use a Lenz Silver Mini on top somewhere.

There seems to be plenty of wiring folded back over the motor and enough height for a DP2X-UK so it should go in somewhere.

 

Keith

[RFS]

I have a pair of M7s now fitted with Lenz Silver Mini+ decoders. These are wires-only so I simply soldered the 4 motor wires to spare 8 pin plugs keeping the wires very short (about 25-30mm only). This kept my deocder options open. The decoders then sit on the top of the motor housing with no trouble at all - they're only 11.5 x 7.5 mm and I'm surprised how well the M7s run with a decoder so small. The DP2X-UK is 24.28 x 16.63 mm, for example - 4 times the size of the Lenz.

[Combe Martin]

The DP2X-UK is 24.28 x 16.63 mm, for example - 4 times the size of the Lenz.

 

Have TCS made 2 sizes of DP2X-UK decoder then ?. Mines sitting in front of me and its 17.5 x 11.5 mm

[250BOB]

I also have a scot and a patriot fitted with the Lenz silver mini, using the same method of soldering an 8 pin plug onto the wires.

Why don't Lenz make this decoder with a plug on already???

Great little decoder, sublime loco performance.

Where can these be obtained at a good price.??

Bob

[RFS]

Have TCS made 2 sizes of DP2X-UK decoder then ?. Mines sitting in front of me and its 17.5 x 11.5 mm

 

Must have done - or my orginal documentation is wrong....

 

[melmerby]

Don't bother with the CT DCX74D.

I was going to try it in a 2251 but I decided to try it in my troublesome "Arthur" - It seems to have been designed by the same person that designed TCS decoders! Same step at settings 7 to 8 and flat at settings 13-15 when using TrainController. An expensive experiment.

 

Keith

[brianthesnail96]

Thanks again for all the advice here folks- even though we've wandered off topic there's still lots of useful stuff coming out.

 

This afternoon I returned the DP2X-UK to antics and swapped (with only a very small amount of money being exchanged) for a standard size Lenz silver. This fits- perfectly, it could have been designed as such- into the top of the boiler between the weights, and other than trying to persuade the wires to fit in the gap between the chip and plug without escaping out the side was an easy fit.

 

More importantly, it's transformed the engine- it's absolutely fantastic, without fiddling around with any of the settings. It's the quiet, slow and smooth shunter I wanted. It's also noticeably less fussed by point frogs and baseboard joints, no idea why this should be mind.

 

Only trouble is I want to fit them to my other engines now... I suspect the DCC ready Collett Goods is no go due to the size of the boiler (as suggested by some posts in this thread) but I may be able to squeeze one into the (not DCC ready) Prairie- has anyone managed this?

[melmerby]

Thanks again for all the advice here folks- even though we've wandered off topic there's still lots of useful stuff coming out.

 

This afternoon I returned the DP2X-UK to antics and swapped (with only a very small amount of money being exchanged) for a standard size Lenz silver. This fits- perfectly, it could have been designed as such- into the top of the boiler between the weights, and other than trying to persuade the wires to fit in the gap between the chip and plug without escaping out the side was an easy fit.

 

More importantly, it's transformed the engine- it's absolutely fantastic, without fiddling around with any of the settings. It's the quiet, slow and smooth shunter I wanted. It's also noticeably less fussed by point frogs and baseboard joints, no idea why this should be mind.

 

Only trouble is I want to fit them to my other engines now... I suspect the DCC ready Collett Goods is no go due to the size of the boiler (as suggested by some posts in this thread) but I may be able to squeeze one into the (not DCC ready) Prairie- has anyone managed this?

Good to hear of a successful conclusion.

 

The DCC ready Collett 2251 is designed to take a Bachmann 8 pin decoder so a Lenz Standard might fit.

 

The Hornby big Prairie will take a TCS T1 (I have one currently so fitted) so the Lenz Standard shouldn't be a problem.

Not sure about the Bachmann small prairies though, I originally used a TCS M1 which is a smallish decoder which fits in the smokebox - you need to check whether a Lenz Standard will go there.

 

Like you I found the running of locos much smoother and I wish I had gone Lenz earlier.

IMHO TCS decoders are fine for basic DCC running but if you want very good slow speed control and predictable performance they are a little below par.

 

Keith

[250BOB]

Hi Brian,

Apologies for hi jacking your thread a little...but as you said, it has been interesting, and we have all learnt a little bit more from those kind folk chipping in with answers.

 

As Keith has said......Lenz performance for me too is perfect. I have tried many, many others just out of curiosity, but they have all been expensive mistakes I'm afraid.

 

Where space is an issue, I now use the Lenz Silver Mini (Model 10310), and solder on an eight pin plug. Alittle more expensive being so small, but it fits all small spaces, thus reducing the need for hacking and removing weights etc., In fact just come out of the loft having fitted one into my Crab which previously had a DP2X in. I decided not to try and fit a Lenz Standard, I chickened out, and spent an extra tenner getting the Silver Mini.....Great result , Locos performance transformed.

Really happy......thanks everyone for your help and advice.

Bob

[brianthesnail96]

Hi Brian,

Apologies for hi jacking your thread a little...but as you said, it has been interesting, and we have all learnt a little bit more from those kind folk chipping in with answers.

Really happy......thanks everyone for your help and advice.

Bob

 

Not a problem at all- there's more to life than Pannier tanks after all and it's all been very useful.

 

I can only echo your last comment!

[melmerby]

Looks like everybody's happy!

 

I've just received some more Lenz decoders through the post, so plenty more work to do.

It's strange so many decoders seem to have speed profile "problems" whilst others do not. It's not as if there are vast differences in price. Most of these "problem decoders are still OK if you just want to control a loco "train-set" fashion, but not if you require more accurate control.

 

Not sure what to do with the redundant DP2X-UKs, the wire in decoders will get used as function only decoders for lights etc.

 

Keith

[250BOB]

Looks like everybody's happy!

 

I've just received some more Lenz decoders through the post, so plenty more work to do.

It's strange so many decoders seem to have speed profile "problems" whilst others do not. It's not as if there are vast differences in price. Most of these "problem decoders are still OK if you just want to control a loco "train-set" fashion, but not if you require more accurate control.

 

Not sure what to do with the redundant DP2X-UKs, the wire in decoders will get used as function only decoders for lights etc.

 

Keith

 

I'm taking a couple of my redundant DP2X decoders to a pals today, he wants at least one off me. Cost is an issue with the better decoders, and it's taken me a while to come round to replacing them with the silver mini 10310 model. I now consider the extra cost to be well worth it for the quality of running achieved.

Bob

[RFS]

I once had 7 DP2X-UK decoders and replaced them all with Lenz. I sold the displaced decoders on Ebay and every one went for more than I'd paid! The first two went for £27 and £25 - I was gobsmacked. The last two both went for £19 each only a couple of months ago. It's also worth trawling round Ebay from time to time: a couple of months ago I picked up a "job lot" of 6 decoders, "5 of which were believed to be Lenz". Indeed they were - 5 silver minis (2 the latest + versions). Cost me all of £37 for the lot. Best bargain I've ever had from this source.

[250BOB]

I once had 7 DP2X-UK decoders and replaced them all with Lenz. I sold the displaced decoders on Ebay and every one went for more than I'd paid! The first two went for £27 and £25 - I was gobsmacked. The last two both went for £19 each only a couple of months ago. It's also worth trawling round Ebay from time to time: a couple of months ago I picked up a "job lot" of 6 decoders, "5 of which were believed to be Lenz". Indeed they were - 5 silver minis (2 the latest + versions). Cost me all of £37 for the lot. Best bargain I've ever had from this source.

You lucky spud.........sounds like you did well on both counts, buying and selling.

Bob.

[melmerby]

I'm taking a couple of my redundant DP2X decoders to a pals today, he wants at least one off me. Cost is an issue with the better decoders, and it's taken me a while to come round to replacing them with the silver mini 10310 model. I now consider the extra cost to be well worth it for the quality of running achieved.

Bob

I've found that most of my DP2X-UK installations can be replaced with the economicaly priced Lenz Standard + (I don't need ABC or other enhancements), only the more difficult ones will get a Silver Mini.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

I once had 7 DP2X-UK decoders and replaced them all with Lenz. I sold the displaced decoders on Ebay and every one went for more than I'd paid!

I wonder why the high price?I suppose it's the "It's EBay, it must be cheap" brigade!

Most of my DP2X's cost £14-£16, new from retailers.

 

Keith

[tender]

I've been following this thread with interest and can't help feel that it has developed a very pro Lenz decoder stance.

I must admit that some of my best locos in terms of slow speed running have Lenz decoders, mostly silver+ type. However I've had a few Lenz/loco combinations where despite a vast amount of cv twiddling refuse to take off smoothly, jumping to a scale speed of 5-10mph at speed step 1 of 128. Equally the TCS decoder can be just as problematic, but also equally as good depending on the loco combination. The choice is not always as clear as it first seems.

 

Edit - Just been playing with a ESU Lokpilot V4 in a recent incarnation of the Hornby Diesel Railcar, very impressed, it has an auto tune facility which automatically sets up the critical motor control CV's for best performance. Both the Lenz and TCS decoders were struggling with slow speed control in this loco.

[melmerby]

I've been following this thread with interest and can't help feel that it has developed a very pro Lenz decoder stance.

I must admit that some of my best locos in terms of slow speed running have Lenz decoders, mostly silver+ type. However I've had a few Lenz/loco combinations where despite a vast amount of cv twiddling refuse to take off smoothly, jumping to a scale speed of 5-10mph at speed step 1 of 128. Equally the TCS decoder can be just as problematic, but also equally as good depending on the loco combination. The choice is not always as clear as it first seems.

 

Edit - Just been playing with a ESU Lokpilot V4 in a recent incarnation of the Hornby Diesel Railcar, very impressed, it has an auto tune facility which automatically sets up the critical motor control CV's for best performance. Both the Lenz and TCS decoders were struggling with slow speed control in this loco.

 

My findings:

I have, so far, 13 Lenz + fitted locos, most of which had TCS before.

 

All of the Lenz fitted locos now have a smooth operation, starting with a extremely slow crawl at speed step 1 (of 28 - I didn't find 128 improved anything) increasing smoothly to maximum.

 

All of the TCS chips gave less than perfect speed steps, some worse than others. All the TCS decoders cramped to some extent at the top end.

The TCS decoders, DP2Xs (and UK), M1s, M3s and T1s were bought over the last 5 years and have various manufacture dates (and component layouts).

 

All the decoders were set originally to: start volts = 0 mid point = 127 and max volts = 255. - later the midpoint and top adjusted to suit loco performance.

I tried to even out the speed curve with the custom speed table (if available) but found this would improve but not cure the problem.

 

I have also tried Hornby, Train$ave, Digitrax and CT decoders

 

Some of the locos fitted are: Bachmann Pannier, Bachmann MR 3F 0-6-0, Lima Railcar with Black Beetle bogie, Mainline Pannier with Comet chassis/Mashima motor, Hornby Stanier 2-6-4T, Bachmann Crab, Bachmann Hall and others. So quite a mixed bunch.

 

All are then speed profiled/brake compensated on TrainController. (hence no need for 128 steps)

In every case of the 13 locos so far the performance with the Lenz decoder is exemplary, this cannot be said of any of the others I have tried.

 

These are just my findings, but I have yet to have a problem with the Lenz decoders. (all 2012, latest firmware version)

 

Keith

 

EDIT: Incidentally the lowest reliable speed I managed to get with any decoder was with the CT DCX74D in a Hornby "King Arthur" where I managed to get it to take more than 10 minutes to travel 72" (None of the other decoders could do this)

[tender]

EDIT: Incidentally the lowest reliable speed I managed to get with any decoder was with the CT DCX74D in a Hornby "King Arthur" where I managed to get it to take more than 10 minutes to travel 72" (None of the other decoders could do this)

 

That equates to 7"/minute, are you saying that your Lenz decoders don't achieve this? I'd be disappointed with that but this is where we enter the realms of subjectivity. One mans crawl is another mans sprint.

For comparision

 

Hornby R8249 Decoder

 

5"/min - Hornby T9

2"/min - Bachmann 108

 

TCS Decoder

 

10"/min - Hornby M7

6"/min - Bachmann N Class

6"/min - Bachmann Pannier Tank (the subject of this thread)

5"/min - Hornby Schools Class

4"/min - Dapol Class 22

 

Lenz Decoder

 

9"/min - Hornby West Country

8"/min - Dapol Beatie Well Tank

6"/min - Bachmann 4CEP

 

ESU Loksound Decoder

 

4"/min - Hornby West Country

3"/min - Bachmann MLV

 

and for something really slow:

 

TSC Decoder

1.5"/min - Dapol Sentinel

 

see Chris Nevard youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomCYdM9rEc&feature=BFa&list=UUPN8LPbSP1wCVX3zr2jSf2Q - 10" in 2 minutes - even that's fast!!!!!

To be fair in the video, the Sentinel only travels about 8" in 2:45 so that's roughly 3"/min. Not sure if Chris used DCC or DC for this test.

 

I would regard anything 10"/min or slower as acceptable for slow running (minimum speed), anything faster and i start tweaking or look for another decoder.

To date i've not found anything that gives this performance with my Brighton Belle (still looking)

 

I should also point out that all the above tests were 'out of the box' default settings.

[250BOB]

Earlier this year I did post elsewhere that I had a problem with two Hornby Britannia type class Pacifics even using a Lenz Standard plus Decoder, one was a Brit, Alfred the Great, the other a Clan.

I couldnt get them to crawl away from a standstill, no matter what adjustments I tried. At the lowest speed step, 1/128, both locos jumped into action at about a scale approx 3 to 5mph.....the only two locos in my whole fleet to do this.......and I can't cure it. I even tried a Zimo that someone on here advised.....it was even worse,

 

I live with the issue now, thinking it more to do with motor/locos.

 

Bob.

[RFS]

I recently purchased 70004 William Shakespeare for my Southern layout. It's fitted with a Lenz Standard+ decoder and indeed at speed step 1 (of 128) it sets off at about 3-4 mph. I had thought about trying a Zimo next time I need an 8-pin decoder - but perhaps now I won't bother! Thanks for the tip-off.