Wright writes.....

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

What wonderful pictures, thanks for taking the time for posting. The second picture in particular is (presumably?) an object lesson in the 'pooling' practice that you and others have previously highlighted - I'm marvelling at the different company letterings that can be discerned.

 

I just love the juxtaposition of the old nag waiting patiently at the bottom whilst organised chaos reigns in the background. How can anyone fail to be fascinated by the wonders of goods train operation?

 

The two goods yard photos can be found on the Warwickshire Railways website. The first is of Birmingham Central Goods Station (Midland Railway), it is part of a photo taken by that company's official photographer on 26 Sept 1922 (DY12738)  

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcgy915a.htm; the second is at Birmingham Moor Street Goods Station (Great Western) in May 1915 https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms758a.htm. Note the different dates: the Central Goods photo illustrates the consequences of pooling, with wagons from many companies present; the Moor Street photo pre-dates the introduction of pooling - all the wagons in the photo belong to the home company.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Compound2632
sp.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Headstock said:

I think it is easily forgotten how dominant the General Merchandise wagons was, well into the BR period. The take over by the van / container was probably aided by the simultaneous decline in freight traffic. Your going to have problems fitting planks of wood in a 12 ton van, better to put them on a lorry.

 

Over 25 years, the LMS built over 97,000 open merchandise wagons and 43,000 12 ton vans. At the end of 1946, LMS-built vans accounted for just 14% of LMS wagon stock; a proportion that had hardly changed from that inherited in 1923. (Although a good many pre-grouping vans were still on the books, so overall the proportion of vans had increased a bit - maybe 20%?). 

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I should let others comment on exact vehicle types - HOWEVER, having been reading through my reference books in the light of these discussions, I believe the one of the left to be the one that  ... er ... most closely matches these Dapol 'LMS' van type that there was been so much talk about, which therefore makes either a D2039 or BR 1/204 (is that anywhere near right?).

 

I will make what I believe to be an informed comment on stickers. From what I've read, traders' labels became a common practice in the 1960s. Hollar make various types of labels that you can buy to stick on your wagons thus. BUT, it was very much a 1960s thing, which fits in with your 1965 photo date, Tony. 1958? Perhaps not so much so ... or even at all

 

Re the dia. 1/204 dia. 2039, not a BR 1/204, see Simons (65179s) post with regards to the raised strip that the Dapol van has and the one in the photograph doesn't. In addition, it has RCH vac brake gear, that would suggest a genuine conversion from an LMS unfitted van. The two put together might be an LMS dia. 2039.

[bbishop]

33 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Andrew,

 

What wonderful pictures, thanks for taking the time for posting. The second picture in particular is (presumably?) an object lesson in the 'pooling' practice that you and others have previously highlighted - I'm marvelling at the different company letterings that can be discerned.

 

I just love the juxtaposition of the old nag waiting patiently at the bottom whilst organised chaos reigns in the background. How can anyone fail to be fascinated by the wonders of goods train operation?

 I will assume the photo dates between 1917 and 1923, when the open wagons were pooled.  As we are on MR territory (that companies brake van), I'll use MR lingo in noting the "deal" wagons would not be pooled nor would some or all the vans in the background - certainly the GER van was fitted and so not pooled.

 

Bill

[bbishop]

I'll quickly analysed the Southern Railway's percentage of open to covered goods wagons in 1923, 1929, 1939 and 1949.  I've ignored all other wagons, including refrigerated vans.  So the figure is: open / open + van, expressed as a percentage.

1923 - 83% open

1929 - 87% open

1939 - 80% open

1949 - 67% open

 

My understanding is the railways were required to provide an agreed number of wagons into the pool according to the volume of traffic.  So the 1923 figure will be influenced by the LSWR preference for covered wagons, possibly affected by Southampton Docks traffic.  Thereafter we should be close to national figures.  My source is Southern Wagons, vol 4, Mike King et al.

 

By 1960, the national figure was about 10%, so the move from open to covered wagons was extremely quick.

 

Bill

[Northmoor]

9 minutes ago, bbishop said:

I'll quickly analysed the Southern Railway's percentage of open to covered goods wagons in 1923, 1929, 1939 and 1949.  I've ignored all other wagons, including refrigerated vans.  So the figure is: open / open + van, expressed as a percentage.

1923 - 83% open

1929 - 87% open

1939 - 80% open

1949 - 67% open

 

My understanding is the railways were required to provide an agreed number of wagons into the pool according to the volume of traffic.  So the 1923 figure will be influenced by the LSWR preference for covered wagons, possibly affected by Southampton Docks traffic.  Thereafter we should be close to national figures.  My source is Southern Wagons, vol 4, Mike King et al.

 

By 1960, the national figure was about 10%, so the move from open to covered wagons was extremely quick.

 

Bill

What are the percentages after 1960 I wonder?  By the 1980s, UK rail freight was dominated by coal and aggregates, general merchandise had almost disappeared.  Now in the 21st Century, coal has almost disappeared and intermodal (containers) make up the majority of the ton-mileage.

[Headstock]

5 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

What are the percentages after 1960 I wonder?  By the 1980s, UK rail freight was dominated by coal and aggregates, general merchandise had almost disappeared.  Now in the 21st Century, coal has almost disappeared and intermodal (containers) make up the majority of the ton-mileage.

 

Good afternoon Northmoor

 

I know containers are containers but is it sort of general merchandise or 80% dodgy wagons from China?

Edited December 29, 2021 by Headstock
afternoon, silly me.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Except that the 8 ton capacity wagons were as common as 10 ton wagons; wagons built to the 1887 RCH specification were the same length over headstocks; the principal visible difference was the depth - 8 ton wagons being typically 3'0" deep, giving a capacity of just under 300 cubic feet; 10 ton wagons 3'8" - 4'0" deep, cubic capacity about 360 - 400 cubic feet. (The number of planks is a bit of a red herring since wider planks remained in widespread use up to the end of the 19th century - 8 ton wagons could have 4 or 5 planks, 10 ton wagons 6 or 7 planks.) Later RCH specifications - 1907 etc - introduced longer and wider wagons of 12 ton and 15 ton capacity, the former being of the 16'6" length over headstocks of the 1923 RCH specification wagons. The really significant advances of the 1923 specification over what was being built in 1922 were not in size or capacity but in the complete specification of standard components, self-contained buffers*, and split oil axleboxes.

 

*in lieu of transverse leaf springs - prone to cracking, a pain to replace, and needing rectangular slots in the end longitudinals and diagonals.

 

So I contend my photo does adequately illustrate the difference between a typical mineral wagon of the turn of the century and a 1923 standard wagon.

 

That is fair enough but they didn't start getting coal out from Maltby until 1912, so they never had the much smaller wagons for outgoing coal traffic as far as I can tell.

 

What is interesting is that I have a photo of a dumb buffered wagon in Maltby livery. By the time the colliery was being sunk, such things were pretty much on the way out, so they must have been bought second hand and perhaps used in construction work. The white load in one would suggest stone rather than coal! I would love to find evidence of a dumb buffered wagon in Maltby livery out on the main line in a coal train but the chances are somewhere between slim and none!

 

This is a scan of a part of an old postcard that I got hold of while researching the model.

 

 

The date must be after 1912 as the coal wagons are in use for coal traffic but there are freshly painted dumb buffered wagons around.

 

Also, note in the distance two pale coloured Dinnington wagons in the background (on the curved track). There was a pale blue livery which is described in one book as being experimental and probably applied only to a single wagon.    

Edited December 29, 2021 by t-b-g
change repeated word

[LNER4479]

Just for a bit of fun, I took the following pic to show the specific wagon / goods traffic books in my somewhat modest (compared to others I've seen) railway (modelling) library.

 

Most were targeted purchases, either based on a review or because they were recommended. Easily the most referred to one is the Rowlands book (top centre) - note the pages of various magazine articles over the years also inserted, which add to the information. But of course this (largely) just covers the BR standard types; I'm aware of the more recent David Larkin 'Acquired Wagons' series which sound interesting. 

 

The LNER one was purchased specifically with Grantham in mind; my primary interest is otherwise BR(LMR) 1950s.

 

I include the two commercial vehicles books also as they are really useful in understanding the first and final legs of the general merchandise traffic in particular. Plenty of detail in those of loading/unloading at goods depots (the 'Famous Fleets' one especially) which tells you a lot about how the wagons were used, including an interesting discourse on 'sundries' traffic (less than wagon load, and the bane of railway goods traffic operation,  apparently).

 

I don't claim in any way to have a complete volume of Turtons or anything like that (hats off to those with the dedication to buy all of those!) but, in a nutshell, what limited knowledge I possess is largely from acquiring and reading the above works.

(Apologies - just realised I missed off the Essery/Morgan LMS wagons book. An old work but I only recently acquired a copy)

Edited December 29, 2021 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

29 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

What are the percentages after 1960 I wonder?  By the 1980s, UK rail freight was dominated by coal and aggregates, general merchandise had almost disappeared.  Now in the 21st Century, coal has almost disappeared and intermodal (containers) make up the majority of the ton-mileage.

Intermodal (containers) traffic has been around since 1965 in the form of the original Freightliner services, one of the more positive consequences of the Beeching report. Comparisons with the steam age railway are odious but is it not the case that what's in the containers is the modern day equivalent of 'general merchandise'? Computers in one, cereal boxes in another, Hornby locos in a third?(!)

Edited December 29, 2021 by LNER4479
Apologies - again. Just realised that's the same point Andrew made 8 minutes previously!

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

 A quick addition, to flesh out a point highlighted by TGB (Tony). Its an obvious difference but easily forgotten The nature of the loads mean that a GM wagon can be loaded up above the body sides or beyond the ends, while a mineral wagon can not. The sheeting is then important, not only to protect the contents from the weather but also to secure the load in the wagon. See the image of the MR wagon below, awaiting its sheeting. I also include an image of an over hanging load and of baskets being loaded into GWR Highbars. The Highbar provides a frame for the sheeting. Some of these loads would be quite difficult to get into a van.

 

 

 

 

 

There is photo in one of the LNWR Miscellany books showing a wagon loaded with timber overhanging one end, the weight of which has collapsed the end planking. 

The LNWR had a specific wagon for handling this sort of load, known as a Deal Wagon. It was a long wheelbase flat wagon with large pockets in the floor to house the retaining chains when not in use.

 

The photo is one of several in LNWR Miscellany showing badly loaded wagons, presumably taken for staff training.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, LNER4479 said:

Intermodal (containers) traffic has been around since 1965 in the form of the original Freightliner services, one of the more positive consequences of the Beeching report. Comparisons with the steam age railway are odious but is it not the case that what's in the containers is the modern day equivalent of 'general merchandise'? Computers in one, cereal boxes in another, Hornby Hornby locos in a third?(!)

In some respects the general merchandise never went away it was simply boxed better and more efficiently for transport.  The container is now ubiquitous around the world - they even turn old ones into housing.  It can travel by road, rail and ship, interchanging between any of those modes as long as there is suitable lifting equipment.

[Northmoor]

17 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

In some respects the general merchandise never went away it was simply boxed better and more efficiently for transport.  The container is now ubiquitous around the world - they even turn old ones into housing.  It can travel by road, rail and ship, interchanging between any of those modes as long as there is suitable lifting equipment.

I realised what I was saying about general merchandise as soon as a wrote it, but perhaps it's the loose GM that has disappeared.

 

There is an excellent documentary sometimes repeated on BBC4 (the kind they are superb at) which tells the history of the ISO shipping container and how it, probably more than anything else, is responsible for enabling the late 20th/early 21st Century consumer society to happen.  There is a telling statistic that it costs less to ship a Chinese-made fridge to Felixstowe than it costs to truck it from Felixstowe to Birmingham.  The global efficiency in world trade that the ISO box has created is simply staggering.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, bbishop said:

 I will assume the photo dates between 1917 and 1923, when the open wagons were pooled.  As we are on MR territory (that companies brake van), I'll use MR lingo in noting the "deal" wagons would not be pooled nor would some or all the vans in the background - certainly the GER van was fitted and so not pooled.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The two goods yard photos can be found on the Warwickshire Railways website. The first is of Birmingham Central Goods Station (Midland Railway), it is part of a photo taken by that company's official photographer on 26 Sept 1922 (DY12738)  

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcgy915a.htm.

 

Sawn timber loaded in opens like that was absolutely standard - see these BR era instructions, pp. 7-8 and these, pp. 26-27 (courtesy of the Barrowmore Model Railway Group's excellent website). The Midland did not deal in deal wagons - a LNWR term - that sort of long low-sided wagon was simply a double bolster wagon.

 

[Headstock]

35 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

There is photo in one of the LNWR Miscellany books showing a wagon loaded with timber overhanging one end, the weight of which has collapsed the end planking. 

The LNWR had a specific wagon for handling this sort of load, known as a Deal Wagon. It was a long wheelbase flat wagon with large pockets in the floor to house the retaining chains when not in use.

 

The photo is one of several in LNWR Miscellany showing badly loaded wagons, presumably taken for staff training.

 

Good afternoon Jol,

 

that's an interesting one because we start to get into the more specialised open wagons, those not built specifically for general merchandise traffic. It also features the other thing that Railway modelers tend to be very bad at on the whole, the loading of wagons. I suspect the photographers and staff trainers would have a field day at the average model railway exhibition. 

 

This ones a classic you see on many layouts that combines the two. How not to load a Pipe wagon

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Headstock
add image

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I realised what I was saying about general merchandise as soon as a wrote it, but perhaps it's the loose GM that has disappeared.

 

Loose became palletised, then it can be lifted in and out of a lorry using either the simple hand driven pallet truck or something bigger right up to a good old forklift.

 

I think the true loose general merchandise now only exists as the last mile delivery option - Amazon vans, Hermes, UPS, Parcelforce etc and firmly in the hands of road going vehicles although some people seem to think swarms of drones a good idea for the future.

[MJI]

Got a ratio van on the way will build as a br era ex Lms with 4 shoe vac brakes and bracing.

 

Will then compare and see what is what

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

That is fair enough but they didn't start getting coal out from Maltby until 1912, so they never had the much smaller wagons for outgoing coal traffic as far as I can tell.

 

What is interesting is that I have a photo of a dumb buffered wagon in Maltby livery. By the time the colliery was being sunk, such things were pretty much on the way out, so they must have been bought second hand and perhaps used in construction work. The white load in one would suggest stone rather than coal! I would love to find evidence of a dumb buffered wagon in Maltby livery out on the main line in a coal train but the chances are somewhere between slim and none!

 

This is a scan of a part of an old postcard that I got hold of while researching the model.

 

 

The date must be after 1912 as the coal wagons are in use for coal traffic but there are freshly painted dumb buffered wagons around.

 

Also, note in the distance two pale coloured Dinnington wagons in the background (on the curved track). There was a pale blue livery which is described in one book as being experimental and probably applied only to a single wagon.    

 

That's a fascinating photo. There is at least one freshly-painted 7 (or possibly 8-plank) wagon in the middle of the picture, along with the line of freshly-painted 4-plank / dumb buffer wagons. But quite a few of the wagons look as if they've been in use for a while, including the dumb-buffer wagon in the foreground. (Limestone? Did Maltby have a coking plant?) The wagon behind it isn't the latest pattern either, for all that its got sprung buffers. Dumb-buffer wagons were forbidden from the main lines in 1913. (End of?) My guess is that the Maltby company had found itself in need of a large number of wagons at short notice, so had had to hire in whatever it could get - the dumb buffer wagons might be on a short-term hire. 

 

More here:

 

 

[Yorkshire Post.] Does this show the colliery buildings under construction?

 

There a plenty of examples to be found of dumb buffer PO wagons in traffic in the first decade or so of the 20th century. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Compound2632

[zr2498]

Some inspiring locomotives

 

 

I wonder if / when a retailer will produce the GWR ''King Henry VII'' engine 6014. Was a kit produced?

Note the copyright on the material in this film. I assume a link is OK.

at 0:19 is the (1929) LNER Class W1

at 1:07 is the (1935) GWR ''King Henry VII'' engine 6014

at 1:48 is the (1935) GWR ''Manorbier Castle'' engine 5005

at 2:20 is the (1935 to 1938) LNER Class A4

at 3:19 is the (1937) LMS Coronation Class

at 4:22 is the (1937) LNER Class B17/5

at 4:51 is the rebuilt (November 1937) LNER Class W1

at 5:00 is the (1941 to 1949) Southern Railway Merchant Navy Class

at 5:11 is the (1945 to 1951) Southern Railway West Country Class

Dave

Edited December 29, 2021 by zr2498
Timings added

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

Got a ratio van on the way will build as a br era ex Lms with 4 shoe vac brakes and bracing.

 

Will then compare and see what is what

Snap! Actually ordered two PC572s plus a couple of Cambrian early LMS Van - although one of the PC572s will now be diverted to an LMS build for Grantham. Meanwhile...

 

A suitable case for treatment? It's a Dapol one. I assume the livery is an aberration? But it has the 8-shoe clasp brake gear so can only(?) be a fitted wagon? In which case, which type is it closest to? Note that I'm not into absolute fastidiousness; close enough will do, based on repainting it bauxite and giving it a suitable BR running number. It'll certainly be an improvement on its current condition.

[Tony Wright]

I'm rather hesitant about posting these images showing various vans I've built in the last three years. However, if they're wrong I'd like to know (and the whole world as well). 

 

 

Standard Parkside, just built as prescribed using the transfers provided. 

 

 

And clipping the buffers.

 

 

My attempt at different colours.

 

 

Between a couple of RTR vans.

 

As mentioned, these were built (mainly at exhibitions, where I was demonstrating - things like these make excellent starting points for the inexperienced). 

 

I even tackled a Parkside O Gauge 12T van.............

 

 

From memory, I think I got muddled by the brake gear (it probably shows). 

 

The number might not be right. On application of the all-in-one transfers, all the digits escaped in every direction.

 

I painted it and Geoff Haynes weathered it.

 

The question of SR vans in far-away goods trains came up again (I was accused of 'spinning' by illustrating them in passenger trains). 

 

 

Could this be one as the fourth vehicle in this ECML fully-fitted northbound freight at Grantham? If not, what?

 

And, what actual colour is BT bauxite? I think this question has been asked before...............

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, MJI said:

Got a ratio van on the way will build as a br era ex Lms with 4 shoe vac brakes and bracing.

 

Will then compare and see what is what

The additional bracing wasn't universal. There are numerous photos showing ex-LMS vans still without it. I presume that BR just stopped doing it at some point.

 

P.21 of the late Don Rowland's wonderful Twilight of the Goods shows M522304 in May 1959, as matching the kit in all but the brake pipes which are the low-level sort, and the buffers, which are the sort with added collars, indicating the van had started off unfitted.

 

John

Edited December 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[MJI]

8 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Snap! Actually ordered two PC572s plus a couple of Cambrian early LMS Van - although one of the PC572s will now be diverted to an LMS build for Grantham. Meanwhile...

 

A suitable case for treatment? It's a Dapol one. I assume the livery is an aberration? But it has the 8-shoe clasp brake gear so can only(?) be a fitted wagon? In which case, which type is it closest to? Note that I'm not into absolute fastidiousness; close enough will do, based on repainting it bauxite and giving it a suitable BR running number. It'll certainly be an improvement on its current condition.

 

That is a BR built one B751300 to B754429

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

That is a BR built one B751300 to B754429

But BR didn't start fitting that brake gear (and only to new-build stock) until 1957-ish, long after they'd finished building vans in the LMS style.

 

As built it should have Morton handbrake only  or the LMS style of clasp AVB (Parkside PA16), with retro-fit BR 4-shoe Morton AVB if converted later.

 

John

Edited December 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's a fascinating photo. There is at least one freshly-painted 7 (or possibly 8-plank) wagon in the middle of the picture, along with the line of freshly-painted 4-plank / dumb buffer wagons. But quite a few of the wagons look as if they've been in use for a while, including the dumb-buffer wagon in the foreground. (Limestone? Did Maltby have a coking plant?) The wagon behind it isn't the latest pattern either, for all that its got sprung buffers. Dumb-buffer wagons were forbidden from the main lines in 1913. (End of?) My guess is that the Maltby company had found itself in need of a large number of wagons at short notice, so had had to hire in whatever it could get - the dumb buffer wagons might be on a short-term hire. 

 

More here:

 

 

[Yorkshire Post.] Does this show the colliery buildings under construction?

 

There a plenty of examples to be found of dumb buffer PO wagons in traffic in the first decade or so of the 20th century. 

 

Another fascinating shot and thanks for posting. It shows yet another livery variation that I haven't seen before, with the dumb buffered wagons having "Maltby Main" rather than just "Maltby". If you were hiring them short term, why go for the more expensive full name rather than the cheaper short version? I had wondered if the "Maltby Main" livery was for wagons going out on the main line and the simpler "Maltby" was for internal use but that photo makes me doubt that now.

 

It certainly looks to be during the construction phase. The lack of loaded and empty coal wagons seen in the other view would indicate that coal wasn't being produced yet. Although if you zoom right in, there are a few of the bigger "Maltby Main" wagons in the background behind the GNR wagon at the left hand end of the rake. In the full version of the postcard I posted, the LH winding gear is completed and has its wheels and other gear in place. That would date the photo to probably 1910/11. The first shaft reached the coal seam in June 1910 and the second shaft, still with headgear under construction, reached it in Jan 1911.  

 

.