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Tony Wright

Wright writes.....

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15 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

I tend to model SR/BR EMUs - you don't need locos or sweaty fingers to make them move around.

 

Sweaty Fingers ..... SWEATY FINGERS ...... SWEATY FINGERS :ireful: ...... :sarcastichand:

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Morning again, Andrew,

 

'Hardly a prestige service aimed at prestige clientele.'

 

The longest non-stop run anywhere in the world? Ho hum. 

 

Granted, for those really loaded, the Pullmans offered prestige, but the non-stop certainly had some of it.

 

A friend of mine, whose father was (in part) responsible for the Haymarket A4s on the service said it was very well-regarded by passengers, and was usually well-filled. 

 

And, how many other 'prestige' services had carriages with compartments reserved just for ladies?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

All the hauled non-gangway trains from Kings Cross and all the 4 car outer suburban EMUs from Liverpool Street and Frenchurch Street. The compartment next to the brake van was "Ladies Only". That was until the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. 

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1 hour ago, Lecorbusier said:

Sweaty Fingers ..... SWEATY FINGERS ...... SWEATY FINGERS :ireful: ...... :sarcastichand:

 

Steamy Windows (Tina Turner) . . . . As found on steamy trains. ;-)

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4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andrew, 

 

I don't know which bits you contributed to the book.

 

I suppose, being more of a loco man than a coach man, I was first drawn to the bloopers in that regard. Identifying a C2 as a C1 on p. 85 is a bit of a howler, especially as it's the one with inside cylinders. And, on p. 143 the picture of QUICKSILVER surely can't have been taken in 1935; it's got full-length buffers and the number is on the front.

 

Out of possible interest, and regarding B1s; in the same book (which does have merit, to be fair), would any modeller replicate the the condition of the electric conduit along the boiler of 61299 I wonder? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

A critique of the book was written jointly by several people back in 2013 and ran to 13 pages covering various errors and other issues with the text and captions. I contributed four pages out of that, mainly on errors in the photo captions. I don't own the copyright to the notes so can't publish. Higher authorities than me decided not to publish it in the journal it was originally intended for. My review for the LNER Society is reproduced somewhere in this thread. It was a worthwhile book but could have been a lot better, even given the limitations in available material. No sign of the long-promised second volume, which seems to have disappeared from the publisher's listings of forthcoming titles.

Edited by robertcwp
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11 hours ago, Headstock said:

Seeing the day of the B1 has at last cometh. In celebration, here's a couple of the great beasties. Observe copyright please.

 

61185 departing Marylebone on the SouthYorkshireman and 61163 reversing to pick up, or drop off a van, or vans in the bay platform at Leicester Central station

 

P.s. 61185 and 61163 have the little blinker style of lamp and the left hand side smokebox conduit, thus the smaller style of raised lamp brackets.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/1909038308_61185copy.jpg.961342184d70d7042f88c9a0e21b3303.jpg

 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/61163.jpg.f0293de64fa4f4c03d1091643e0a4ee5.jpg

Superb photo of the South Yorkshireman leaving Marylebone. Do you have a date  for it, please?

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13 hours ago, robertcwp said:

No. The only pre-war LNER-era GE section items I have seen were two small booklets in connection with altered workings for the Silver Jubilee of King George V in 1935. Unfortunately, there is no key to the abbreviations:

 

Cambridge Line

Colchester Line

 

I don't think the Great Eastern Railway Society has any either.

 

EDIT: found another one - 1931 country branch workings

 

I have some from the 1950s, as does the GERS.

 

Hi Robert,

 

Thank you so much :) I guess the records from that section weren't as well curated? Someone somewhere must have something :)

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andrew, 

 

I don't know which bits you contributed to the book.

 

I suppose, being more of a loco man than a coach man, I was first drawn to the bloopers in that regard. Identifying a C2 as a C1 on p. 85 is a bit of a howler, especially as it's the one with inside cylinders. And, on p. 143 the picture of QUICKSILVER surely can't have been taken in 1935; it's got full-length buffers and the number is on the front.

 

Out of possible interest, and regarding B1s; in the same book (which does have merit, to be fair), would any modeller replicate the the condition of the electric conduit along the boiler of 61299 I wonder? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Good Afternoon Tony,


The caption of 61299 on the Bournemouth was the one mangled by the publisher. There were two photo choices, the description of the train refers to the photograph that was not used. Here's one for everyone to pencil in, The catering in the photo is actually a Maunsell first class Restaurant car and not the Kitchen Buffet conversion as stated, The open carriage running with the RF is an open third and not the conversion to composite dining saloon as stated in the photo. The good news for the RTR crowd is that the open third in the photo is the type offered by Hornby, as is the Restaurant car. The dining saloon conversion was a different dia of open third all together. The Buffet car and dining saloon were converted for cross country workings in 1947, both have survived into preservation and are the only Maunsell catering carriages in existence. Both feature in my model of the train built for LSGC.


The Bournemouth York, as featured in the photo and as running up until and including 1951 can be now modelled as a RTR train, with the following alterations. Hornby do not produce the livery that the train was running in during the late 40's and early 50's, so a repaint would be required. The composites would require converting to the type used in cross country workings. This is quite easy as all the Southern did was convert a first class compartment into a third class compartment. This was achieved by adding internal partitions to replicate the smaller internal dimensions of the standard  third class compartments. This was done to match the seating arrangements of the LMS or LNER trains that shared the workings of cross country services to the North.


61299 was a rather interesting member of the class from a Leicestercentric point of view. As E1299, it and sister locomotive E1298, were allocated to Leicester as brand new locomotives. The locomotives were outshopped in the new British Railways version of LNER green. Both actually had a full set of working electric lights, the first at the depot! A model of E1298 is featured on LSGC. With regard to the conduit wiggle as seen in the photo of 61299. The conduit is actually in two parts and joins together just forwards of the third boiler band. It is a natural point of weakness that is susceptible to damage. A lot of the wiggles in pipe runs down the length of the boiler on B1 locomotives originate in this area. Yes, I would model it in the way seen in the photo.

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Morning again, Andrew,

 

'Hardly a prestige service aimed at prestige clientele.'

 

The longest non-stop run anywhere in the world? Ho hum. 

 

Granted, for those really loaded, the Pullmans offered prestige, but the non-stop certainly had some of it.

 

A friend of mine, whose father was (in part) responsible for the Haymarket A4s on the service said it was very well-regarded by passengers, and was usually well-filled. 

 

And, how many other 'prestige' services had carriages with compartments reserved just for ladies?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

If I was writing for publication I would provide a more balanced viewpoint, Perhaps not the most prestigious service but probably the flagship service. The point that you make about compartments for women is an interesting one. Given the rampant sexism of the times in all areas of life, one wonders what the proportion of women was as passengers on the Pullman services.

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1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Superb photo of the South Yorkshireman leaving Marylebone. Do you have a date  for it, please?

 

I've had the photo so long, I cant remember. It has to be 1949, 1950 at the latest. The lack of semi FO (that was a fat cats club car if ever there was one) in the formation is intersting from a dating perspective. Do you have any information on 61311 in your photo at Kennington, such as direction of travel, time of day. I sort of know what the train might be but more info is required.

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2 hours ago, robertcwp said:

A critique of the book was written jointly by several people back in 2013 and ran to 13 pages covering various errors and other issues with the text and captions. I contributed four pages out of that, mainly on errors in the photo captions. I don't own the copyright to the notes so can't publish. Higher authorities than me decided not to publish it in the journal it was originally intended for. My review for the LNER Society is reproduced somewhere in this thread. It was a worthwhile book but could have been a lot better, even given the limitations in available material. No sign of the long-promised second volume, which seems to have disappeared from the publisher's listings of forthcoming titles.

 

I haven't read the critique of the book and to be honest I probably haven't read the whole book, just my bits (I jest). I wasn't impressed by the criticism that I did here, a lot of it seemed personal and petty, the lack of GE content seemed a big point for some people, my thoughts is that it complete missed the point. A trawl around each individual area of the LNER would bored the reader to death. It would have repeated the same information over and over region by region. It would have been nice to have more examples from the GE but it wouldn't have dramatically changed the book.

 

My own general thoughts on the book is that it gets the how, the why and the wherefore right, that is probably its single most important contribution. Most stuff written on the subject has little understanding or interest in this aspect, it just becomes a boring list of facts without context or meaning. It would be so easy to make this the most boring book ever written, it succeeds in that it is not. I like that the book has context and meaning, though there are apparently issues with some of the facts. I am led to believe that these are more in the nature of fractional mistakes, not earth shattering revelations. To be fair, I'm in a privileged position with regards to access to information and most importantly interpretation on the subject, I don't need the book, therefore I'm less distracted by it.

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16 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

I'm in a privileged position with regards to access to information and most importantly interpretation on the subject, I don't need the book, therefore I'm less distracted by it.

 

With that privilege perhaps comes a responsibility to ensure that that information becomes more widely accessible.

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

I've had the photo so long, I cant remember. It has to be 1949, 1950 at the latest. The lack of semi FO (that was a fat cats club car if ever there was one) in the formation is intersting from a dating perspective. Do you have any information on 61311 in your photo at Kennington, such as direction of travel, time of day. I sort of know what the train might be but more info is required.

61311 is heading north and given the angle of the sun, it must be well into the evening as the line runs almost south-north at that point. I suspect it is one of the Swindon-York trains. The photo was dated 18 May 1951 so the daylight hours would have been long.

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28 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

I haven't read the critique of the book and to be honest I probably haven't read the whole book, just my bits (I jest). I wasn't impressed by the criticism that I did here, a lot of it seemed personal and petty, the lack of GE content seemed a big point for some people, my thoughts is that it complete missed the point. A trawl around each individual area of the LNER would bored the reader to death. It would have repeated the same information over and over region by region. It would have been nice to have more examples from the GE but it wouldn't have dramatically changed the book.

 

The GE section is the one piece I am interested in - the rest was informative, but mostly irrelevant. The GE section, as you are no doubt more than aware, even had its own special shorted coaches used on many but not all services. I bought the first one to 1) find out about how it worked, and 2) show my support in the hope part 2 is forthcoming.

 

Last I saw for part two was it had been delayed (again) to 2020 some time, but the Crecy website is down at present.

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6 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

61311 is heading north and given the angle of the sun, it must be well into the evening as the line runs almost south-north at that point. I suspect it is one of the Swindon-York trains. The photo was dated 18 May 1951 so the daylight hours would have been long.

 

Thanks Robert,


that's what I was thinking, kind of ironic that the most historically interesting and rare photographs of everyday workings, wouldn't even be considered for publication due to indifferent quality. A bias in the fossil record.


There looks to be two strengtheners, one an ex NER non gangway third, what do you make of the first carriage behind the ex GWR BG, Gresley/Thompson steel panelled open third or of GWR design?

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18 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

The GE section is the one piece I am interested in - the rest was informative, but mostly irrelevant. The GE section, as you are no doubt more than aware, even had its own special shorted coaches used on many but not all services. I bought the first one to 1) find out about how it worked, and 2) show my support in the hope part 2 is forthcoming.

 

Last I saw for part two was it had been delayed (again) to 2020 some time, but the Crecy website is down at present.

 

You honestly believe that the rest of the informaion is mostly irrelevant to the GE section, I'm stunned.

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1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

The GE section is the one piece I am interested in - the rest was informative, but mostly irrelevant. The GE section, as you are no doubt more than aware, even had its own special shorted coaches used on many but not all services. I bought the first one to 1) find out about how it worked, and 2) show my support in the hope part 2 is forthcoming.

 

Last I saw for part two was it had been delayed (again) to 2020 some time, but the Crecy website is down at present.

 

Having recovered. The book will tell you what the LNER's policy was (not much changed under BR for the first decade) on the formatting of passenger trains and the creation of basic sets, something that was applicable to all areas of the LNER. Nothing has come to light to suggest that the GE was any different from the GC section, or the NE or GN sections (I use abbreviated terms for clarity) Armed with that information, you should be able to start trawling through photographs in your area and era of interest and start to identify the patterns that are present.

 

On photographs, I would advise looking beyond books, They tend to have lots of nice images of summer Saturdays workings that don't always give you what you are looking for, that would be the typical and the everyday. Next time that you visit an exhibition, it would be a good idear to spend some time going through the photographs on the photo stand. This is a really good place to start. Have an idear of what you are looking for before you go, that way you can manage your time more effectively. Don't get to hung up on short Gresley carriages, they were a small drop in the ocean even on the GE, and were dispersed somewhat after nationalisation. Don't forget that 60% of the LNER's carriage fleet was of pre grouping design. Without delving into too much detail, lots of GER carriages will always sell a GER layout even if it be set in the LNER or BR period. There are plenty of people who can help you with the identification of trains, Wright writes is not a bad place to start in that respect.

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks Robert,


that's what I was thinking, kind of ironic that the most historically interesting and rare photographs of everyday workings, wouldn't even be considered for publication due to indifferent quality. A bias in the fossil record.


There looks to be two strengtheners, one an ex NER non gangway third, what do you make of the first carriage behind the ex GWR BG, Gresley/Thompson steel panelled open third or of GWR design?

I shall do a larger version focusing on the stock later.

 

In the meantime, if this link works, it will go to the 40 original images in my collection that were taken around Kennington Junction, Oxford, which show engines and stock from all of the Big Four, plus BR.

 

No publisher would put all 40 in a book but this must have been a great place to watch the trains go by. 

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Talking of railway photography showing the bigger picture, I came across this album on Flickr last night. All in the North West, some superb photos here. DP2 fans will weep, but be enlivened with the new stuff departing "The Vulcan".

 

Only 43 photos in this album - but every one is an absolute cracker. This is the railway as I remember it. The overall atmosphere of these shots, mucky industry & all is what I try to model on my OO loft layout, with to my mind some success (then again only me sees it !!!!!)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157663795444141

 

What a great photographer Eddie was - R.I.P.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, robertcwp said:

61311 is heading north and given the angle of the sun, it must be well into the evening as the line runs almost south-north at that point. I suspect it is one of the Swindon-York trains. The photo was dated 18 May 1951 so the daylight hours would have been long.

Larger version - I'm now sceptical abut the date written on the negative sleeve as 18 May 1952 was a Sunday:

49188959157_8f180cd51e_b.jpg61311_Kennington_18-5-52_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Edited by robertcwp
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On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 01:24, Headstock said:

...I don't subscribe to best guest scenario with my modelling, Why should I except it in books? If research is done properly then there should be no need of best guessing. That should be a point of discussion before publication. Personally, I would never use a photo that I didn't understand the meaning of. One of the problems with Railway picture books is that the picture is the tail wagging the dog, it should be the other way about. Were by the picture is used to illustrates the point that is being made in the text. We are so use to dealing with pictures in books with poor guessing game captions, that it never occurs to us that we should be demanding truth and cold hard facts. Even a small move towards greater academic credibility would not go amiss. At the end of the day, such stuff is just poor research.

I had to take several guesses at what words were intended. One of the funniest posts on RMweb this year.

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6 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I had to take several guesses at what words were intended. One of the funniest posts on RMweb this year.

 

Thanks, your funny too.

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4 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks Robert,


That's clearer, I can see what's going on. There are some lovelly photigraphs on your thread, for my own interest this one is the best.

Andrew - you replied before my edit to say I was sceptical about the date written on the negative sleeve as 18 May 1952 was a Sunday.

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16 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Andrew - you replied before my edit to say I was sceptical about the date written on the negative sleeve as 18 May 1952 was a Sunday.

 

Evening Robert,


I've been experiencing some problems with the site dropping in and out, it's been a bit troublesome all weekend to be honest. I've only just got it back working again.

 

21 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

No, that's you are (you're) funny too. If you want cold hard facts, the words used need to be the right ones, chum.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

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