Wright writes.....

[MikeParkin65]

8 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

Hi Rob,  I agree with you, but with one proviso.   It is a shame that Hornby haven’t provided etched nameplates for this model, in the same way that Bachmann do for their named locomotives these days.   It is an easy fix, thanks to other nameplate and lettering suppliers such as Fox, but what a strange and very noticeable omission given the lengths that they go to elsewhere on the model.

Agree plus a  dummy front coupling which Hornby seem hit and miss about supplying 

[Tony Wright]

36 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

Hi Rob,  I agree with you, but with one proviso.   It is a shame that Hornby haven’t provided etched nameplates for this model, in the same way that Bachmann do for their named locomotives these days.   It is an easy fix, thanks to other nameplate and lettering suppliers such as Fox, but what a strange and very noticeable omission given the lengths that they go to elsewhere on the model.

Good morning Phil,

 

It does seem a strange omission not to supply etched plates. By all means print the 'plates, but include etched brass ones as well (as does Bachmann). 

 

I suppose there's always the fear of folk messing them up in gluing them on. Simon Kohler tells me several horror stories regarding Hornby models being brought to him at shows, where the owner has attempted to glue things like steps and vacuum standpipes on. The things are covered in glue and fingerprints! 

 

In fact, most RTR locos remain just as bought, their owners happy to do nothing to them; just run them as supplied, perhaps fearing that any alteration/detailing done to them will reduce their value.

 

As you say, though, etched plates are available from several suppliers. 

 

 

Not just to replicate the printed 'plate, but different ones as well. These are by 247 Developments.

 

 

Whether being renamed or not, they're certainly worth fitting. How I altered this model is described in the next issue of BRM. 

 

Is it as good as kit-built equivalents costing six/seven times as much?

 

 

This one (DJH/Wright/Rathbone) isn't as detailed at the front end. 

 

 

Neither is this one (Crownline/Wright/Rathbone). 

 

The big difference is that the two I've built will pull more (they're made of metal - including 60500's boiler - and have extra lead ballast added), though the haulage powers of Hornby's latest Thompson Pacifics is excellent.

 

The other difference, of course, is that I've made mine; they're thus much more than just 'possessions'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Dylan Sanderson]

Morning everyone,

 

Bit of an odd request, but does anyone have any photos or drawings of the ends/couplings of All Steel K type pullmans? The Hornby model is excellent, but I can't help but think that they'll be greatly improved with the addition of prototypical couplings and various vacuum pipes in the correct places. They look a bit bare in that department, especially in a large rake!

 

Many thanks,

Dylan

[Tony Wright]

34 minutes ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

Morning everyone,

 

Bit of an odd request, but does anyone have any photos or drawings of the ends/couplings of All Steel K type pullmans? The Hornby model is excellent, but I can't help but think that they'll be greatly improved with the addition of prototypical couplings and various vacuum pipes in the correct places. They look a bit bare in that department, especially in a large rake!

 

Many thanks,

Dylan

I'll look and see if I have any prototype shots in my collection Dylan,

 

Here's what I've done in model form.......................

 

 

These are Hornby/Comet conversions, undertaken by me and painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

The dummy buckeye is from Keen Systems, and the train-heating/vacuum brake pipes just bent brass wire. The end board is from The Famous Named Trains Company, stuck on to a piece of thin card.

 

The Hornby car end boards are a better shape.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

That's a wonderful image, Rob.

 

Most-impressive, and certainly as good in terms of depth of field as anything I could achieve.

 

Regarding the model, what strikes me is how it's such outstanding value for money. I'd better explain...............

 

I assume this is under £200.00? You'd need at least another £100.00 (maybe more) to get a top painter to achieve this standard of LNER green presentation on a kit-built equivalent (perhaps a pro painter might tell us). And, speaking of a kit-equivalent, probably around £300.00+ will be needed to buy all the bits (the DJH A23 boiler would also need altering to produce 500). 

So, if I may use my rates as a guide, for one LNER 500 from my stable, you could buy about seven of these! Food for thought?

 

Thanks for showing us.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I purchased one of the LNER liveried A2/3's recently. My first RTR locomotive in almost 10 years, imagine my excitement and anticipation, until I got it out of the box. My heart sunk, I was most despondent at the execution of the livery, Robs picture above must have been digitally altered, as the colour on the model, is nothing like LNER green, rather a washed out minty pea soup colour, Yuck! The cost of a pro paint job is irrelevant to myself, Isn't the finish offered by Hornby supposed to be professional?

 

I'm told by a friend, from a suitable distance, that the rendition of green on the BR models is just as repulsive. Both LNER and BR colours looked pretty sad in the display cabinet down at my local, I'm sure anti Corona masks don't effect the perception of colour. Could I do a better job? Darn right. I'm left with the impression that Hornby needs to hire one of those good value for money pro painters to teach them about colour.

 

I include a pic of the real colour on the model and an LNER grass green/apple green swatch for comparison, also note the wonky boiler bands and the mark on the boiler that was literally a lump of dried paint that could be flicked off

 

No doubt I should be gratefully to Hornby, I remain disappointed.

[Dylan Sanderson]

31 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I'll look and see if I have any prototype shots in my collection Dylan,

 

Here's what I've done in model form.......................

 

 

These are Hornby/Comet conversions, undertaken by me and painted by Ian Rathbone.

 

The dummy buckeye is from Keen Systems, and the train-heating/vacuum brake pipes just bent brass wire. The end board is from The Famous Named Trains Company, stuck on to a piece of thin card.

 

The Hornby car end boards are a better shape.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Looks the business Tony! Just what I was after. May I ask, what have you done between coaches?

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I purchased one of the LNER liveried A2/3's recently. My first RTR locomotive in almost 10 years, imagine my excitement and anticipation, until I got it out of the box. My heart sunk, I was most despondent at the execution of the livery, Robs picture above must have been digitally altered, as the colour on the model, is nothing like LNER green, rather a washed out minty pea soup colour, Yuck! The cost of a pro paint job is irrelevant to myself, Isn't the finish offered by Hornby supposed to be professional?

 

I'm told by a friend, from a suitable distance, that the rendition of green on the BR models is just as repulsive. Both LNER and BR colours looked pretty sad in the display cabinet down at my local, I'm sure anti Corona masks don't effect the perception of colour. Could I do a better job? Darn right. I'm left with the impression that Hornby needs to hire one of those good value for money pro painters to teach them about colour.

 

I include a pic of the real colour on the model and an LNER grass green/apple green swatch for comparison, also note the wonky boiler bands and the mark on the boiler that was literally a lump of dried paint that could be flicked off

 

No doubt I should be gratefully to Hornby, I remain disappointed.

 

You have to be careful saying things like that. You get the "Nobody can remember colours so it doesn't matter" brigade up in arms.

 

I think you are quite right. The Hornby colour reminds me of the colour the NRM painted Green Arrow a decade or so ago.

 

Malcolm Crawley was appalled and got in touch with the NRM to gave them some of his genuine LNER green paint so they could see where they had gone wrong.

 

Allowing for problems with digital renditions of colours on screens, your swatch looks so much better and shows just how wrong the model is.

 

I have little or no interest in Thompson pacifics or RTR models so I may be totally wrong but my impression is that the cylinders are too low. My instinct tells me that if the cylinders on a loco are inclined and line up with the centre axle, then the piston rod should be above the centre line of the leading axle. That looks level or below. That would account for the big gap between the top of the cylinder and the footplate. Are they all the same or is that a bit of faulty assemble? 

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

Malcolm Crawley was appalled and got in touch with the NRM to gave them some of his genuine LNER green paint so they could see where they had gone wrong.

 

What response did he get?

[davidw]

7 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

You have to be careful saying things like that. You get the "Nobody can remember colours so it doesn't matter" brigade up in arms.

 

I think you are quite right. The Hornby colour reminds me of the colour the NRM painted Green Arrow a decade or so ago.

 

Malcolm Crawley was appalled and got in touch with the NRM to gave them some of his genuine LNER green paint so they could see where they had gone wrong.

 

Allowing for problems with digital renditions of colours on screens, your swatch looks so much better and shows just how wrong the model is.

 

I have little or no interest in Thompson pacifics or RTR models so I may be totally wrong but my impression is that the cylinders are too low. My instinct tells me that if the cylinders on a loco are inclined and line up with the centre axle, then the piston rod should be above the centre line of the leading axle. That looks level or below. That would account for the big gap between the top of the cylinder and the footplate. Are they all the same or is that a bit of faulty assemble? 

Perhaps a better approach is instead of colours not mattering is are the  livery colours consistently applied. What I mean is; is the Brunswick green applied to my B17 the same as my A3's and A4's. Sadly the colour interpretation on Hornby's A2/2 and A2/3 varies significantly from the Brunswick green applied to other models, as does the lining which is more like red black red than orange black orange. I can't comment if that is the case for apple green locos. It can be fixed by weathered down. An airbrush, powders and clear can work wonders but it is a bit disappointing. I'd still like further examples.

[Headstock]

19 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

You have to be careful saying things like that. You get the "Nobody can remember colours so it doesn't matter" brigade up in arms.

 

I think you are quite right. The Hornby colour reminds me of the colour the NRM painted Green Arrow a decade or so ago.

 

Malcolm Crawley was appalled and got in touch with the NRM to gave them some of his genuine LNER green paint so they could see where they had gone wrong.

 

Allowing for problems with digital renditions of colours on screens, your swatch looks so much better and shows just how wrong the model is.

 

I have little or no interest in Thompson pacifics or RTR models so I may be totally wrong but my impression is that the cylinders are too low. My instinct tells me that if the cylinders on a loco are inclined and line up with the centre axle, then the piston rod should be above the centre line of the leading axle. That looks level or below. That would account for the big gap between the top of the cylinder and the footplate. Are they all the same or is that a bit of faulty assemble? 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I'm a bit of a virgin when it comes to modern RTR locomotives, given the amount of praise they receive, I'm left slightly bemused. My impression is that the loco could do with a strip down into its component parts. A bit of fettling and re assembly would do it a world of good and then sort out the paint job. With regard to the cylinders, there is a poor fit between the running board and the chassis at the front end, with daylight visible were it should not be. Sorting this may resolve the problem. The super heater covers and the tender buffer beam are also wonky, they would have to come off.

 

There is a lot of good in this model, mechanically it's quite impressive. However, it would require a fair amount of work to bring it up to standard that I would be happy with. I am a modeler, so work to improve it may actually be quite satisfying. It was intended as a back up locomotive, so not a priority. I am currently considering whether to get rid of it or add it to the things to do in a model railway lifetime list.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What response did he get?

 

Green Arrow ended up a different and much better colour. Whether that was due to Malcolm's input or something else is not something I know. This was about the time Tornado was being painted, along with the preserved N2. Malcolm was involved with both and when he saw what the NRM were offering as a sample of LNER Green he was horrified. If you look at colour photos of Tornado, the N2 and Green Arrow as it was back then, two look right and one doesn't.

 

It is one of those colours, rather like Midland/LMS red, that creates huge disagreements between people but it is just something the either looks "right" or it doesn't.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

Perhaps a better approach is instead of colours not mattering is are the  livery colours consistently applied. What I mean is; is the Brunswick green applied to my B17 the same as my A3's and A4's. Sadly the colour interpretation on Hornby's A2/2 and A2/3 varies significantly from the Brunswick green applied to other models, as does the lining which is more like red black red than orange black orange. I can't comment if that is the case for apple green locos. It can be fixed by weathered down. An airbrush, powders and clear can work wonders but it is a bit disappointing. I'd still like further examples.

 

There is a story in John Quick's book on GCR locomotive liveries of some communication he had with a former GCR driver, Percy Banyard. John had asked Percy what he thought the correct GCR Green should be and Percy relayed a story of seeing several green locos lined up on shed and all were different shades of Green, so he couldn't say which was correct. So a slight variation doesn't bother me but the Hornby one looks as if it was mixed from different ingredients, with rather too much blue.

 

Whether the same applied in BR steam days I couldn't say from personal experience (too young!) but I recall seeing BR Green and Blue diesels that were quite different colours standing next to each other in the same light. For the grammar police, I am talking about two green locos or two blue locos, not the difference between blue and green. Fading over the years made the difference. It is just that they were the same colour faded, not a different colour to start with.

 

There was an example of a poor green Hornby loco transformed with some "Kleer" a while ago but you shouldn't really have to do that to a RTR loco to get it a good colour. If it sold as a pristine loco in ex works condition, the basic colour should be better.

 

The lining colour and thickness variation is even harder to sort out.

 

 

[MikeParkin65]

17 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Green Arrow ended up a different and much better colour. Whether that was due to Malcolm's input or something else is not something I know. This was about the time Tornado was being painted, along with the preserved N2. Malcolm was involved with both and when he saw what the NRM were offering as a sample of LNER Green he was horrified. If you look at colour photos of Tornado, the N2 and Green Arrow as it was back then, two look right and one doesn't.

 

It is one of those colours, rather like Midland/LMS red, that creates huge disagreements between people but it is just something the either looks "right" or it doesn't.

Am I right in thinking that 4771 was spray painted whilst 60163 was brush painted? 

[t-b-g]

Just now, MikeParkin65 said:

Am I right in thinking that 4771 was spray painted whilst 60163 was brush painted? 

 

I couldn't tell you. It is the sort of thing I would have asked Malcolm if he was still around. Now he is no longer here, my access to information on that side of things has pretty much vanished.

 

I do know whose paint they used and the firm says it is suitable for modelling purposes but I haven't tried any.

 

At £17.95 for 500ml of enamel paint, it seems a decent price!

 

https://craftmaster.myshopify.com/collections/colours-railways/products/lner

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, davidw said:

Perhaps a better approach is instead of colours not mattering is are the  livery colours consistently applied. What I mean is; is the Brunswick green applied to my B17 the same as my A3's and A4's. Sadly the colour interpretation on Hornby's A2/2 and A2/3 varies significantly from the Brunswick green applied to other models, as does the lining which is more like red black red than orange black orange. I can't comment if that is the case for apple green locos. It can be fixed by weathered down. An airbrush, powders and clear can work wonders but it is a bit disappointing. I'd still like further examples.

 

Good afternoon David,

 

using Klear/future/pledge or any gloss varnish will make the colour more vibrant but it doesn't get around the basic problem. The green being used is the wrong colour temperature, it's too cold, too blue. LNER green was much warmer and towards the yellow end of the colour spectrum, it was officially called grass green but is often referred to as apple green. I would not associate either names with Hornby's colour, it being more like mint green.

 

BR never used Brunswick green on their locomotives, it was available at the time, being somewhat warmer on the red spectrum than the official BR shade. BR chose to mix their own colour, officially it was described as ''dark green after the style of the Great Western''. Swatches of the colour were handed out to works and they mixed their own paint based of the swatch. This resulted in quite a few variations of BR green. Eventually, BR realising the problem and decided to produced their own paint mix specification and had it made up by an outside contractor. From 1954 BR dark green or chrome green was batch produced away from the works. The original BR green based off the swatch, probably survives on the mock up Britannia cab preserved at the NRM. Locomotives such as Winston Churchill, that still carry their original BR livery, will still retain the outside manufactures green as specified by BR.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Headstock
add,

[MikeParkin65]

9 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Locomotives such as Winston Churchill, that still carry their original BR livery, will still retain the outside manufactures green as specified by BR.

34051 has been repainted twice in preservation, once at Derby works circa 1977 then again  a few years ago at the Mid Hants Railway

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Headstock said:

BR never used Brunswick green on their locomotives, it was available at the time, being somewhat warmer on the red spectrum than the official BR shade. BR chose to mix their own colour, officially it was described as ''dark green after the style of the Great Western''. Swatches of the colour were handed out to works and they mixed their own paint based of the swatch. This resulted in quite a few variations of BR green. Eventually, BR realising the problem and decided to produced their own paint mix specification and had it made up by an outside contractor. From 1954 BR dark green or chrome green was batch produced away from the works. The original BR green based off the swatch, probably survives on the mock up Britannia cab preserved at the NRM. Locomotives such as Winston Churchill, that still carry their original BR livery, will still retain the outside manufactures green as specified by BR.

 

"Brunswick green" has, I believe, only ever been a non-specialists description of the colour, the official description of the Great Western colour being "middle chrome green", which implies the chemical composition of the pigment. 

[Headstock]

5 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

34051 has been repainted twice in preservation, once at Derby works circa 1977 then again  a few years ago at the Mid Hants Railway

 

Then some other loco that survives in its original BR green livery, there must be one, City of Whatsit maybe?

 

Its not a colour that I have used on a model in decades, I've just read the BR documentation and seen the swatches.

[Headstock]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

"Brunswick green" has, I believe, only ever been a non-specialists description of the colour, the official description of the Great Western colour being "middle chrome green", which implies the chemical composition of the pigment. 

 

Chrome green appears on the 1954 specification. The original just says dark green.

 

I have been told that Brunswick green comes from the Humbrol shade. Back in the day, it was the only paint available that approximated the real thing. That may be an apocryphal story though.

[LNER4479]

17 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Then some other loco that survives in its original BR green livery, there must be one, City of Whatsit maybe?

 

Birmingham?

[MikeParkin65]

2 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Birmingham?

I think I am correct in saying it is now the only loco carrying original BR Green paintwork. This is often cited as one of the reasons that it should not be restored to working order

[Chamby]

Given that a picture paints a thousand words...  three RTR shades of LNER green for comparison.  

 

Left to right:  Bachmann B1 (Bachmann's Peppercorn A2 is an identical colour); Hornby's A3 (Donor loco was Gay Crusader) and on the right, the new Hornby A2/3.  

 

 

Railmatch's Doncaster and Darlington green shades are different again, which makes touching up the RTR models an interesting exercise of mixing-up your own shade! 

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

Looks the business Tony! Just what I was after. May I ask, what have you done between coaches?

Just one pedantic point Dylan, if I may?

 

Pullmans were cars, not coaches.

 

Anyway, this is my coupling system..........

 

 

 

It's dead easy to make and very cheap. Obviously, it's fixed and cannot be coupled/uncoupled automatically, but it suits the operation of dedicated rakes. It never comes uncoupled, either.

 

Out of interest, another 'back-end'......................

 

 

This time the dummy buckeye is a Bachmann one. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I purchased one of the LNER liveried A2/3's recently. My first RTR locomotive in almost 10 years, imagine my excitement and anticipation, until I got it out of the box. My heart sunk, I was most despondent at the execution of the livery, Robs picture above must have been digitally altered, as the colour on the model, is nothing like LNER green, rather a washed out minty pea soup colour, Yuck! The cost of a pro paint job is irrelevant to myself, Isn't the finish offered by Hornby supposed to be professional?

 

I'm told by a friend, from a suitable distance, that the rendition of green on the BR models is just as repulsive. Both LNER and BR colours looked pretty sad in the display cabinet down at my local, I'm sure anti Corona masks don't effect the perception of colour. Could I do a better job? Darn right. I'm left with the impression that Hornby needs to hire one of those good value for money pro painters to teach them about colour.

 

I include a pic of the real colour on the model and an LNER grass green/apple green swatch for comparison, also note the wonky boiler bands and the mark on the boiler that was literally a lump of dried paint that could be flicked off

 

No doubt I should be gratefully to Hornby, I remain disappointed.

I'm sorry you're disappointed, Andrew. 

 

Not have seen an LNER A2/3, I cannot comment personally.

 

Colour perception will always remain a contentious issue. 

 

For instance, which green is 'right' out of these two?

 

 

Was one painted at Doncaster and the other at Darlington? 

 

 

This is FLYING SCOTSMAN as first preserved after painting at Doncaster in 1963. 

 

 

A few years later she had acquired a second tender, and been painted at Darlington. 

 

Quite a difference in colour, though that might be down to the film and the lighting on the days the pictures were taken.

 

I know Hornby has actually consulted both Ian Rathbone and Geoff Haynes now. Ironically, their colours don't match each other.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

59 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I think I am correct in saying it is now the only loco carrying original BR Green paintwork. This is often cited as one of the reasons that it should not be restored to working order

I think you are right, Mike.

 

46235 has never been repainted, though her finish might have altered after getting on for 60 years.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.