Redsrail Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Hi, Home from work at last. Wow !! You guys have been busy........here's me still trying to get me head round the amount of knowlrdge needed to build freightliner set....lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redsrail Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Morning all, After viewing Paul Bartletts excellent photo site i noticed there does'nt appear to be many of the tank containers, is this because they are a relatively new addition to the range of containers available and perhaps not so many in use in the 1980's ? Also why do these freightliner chassis have the strange couplings on ? Were they run in fixed sets ? Thanks again for your help, patience and understanding. Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rods_of_Revolution Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 This site is usually pretty good, it also has drawings for various Guard's Containers: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/7-fops/fo-abcont.htm There's also a photo here of the one the NRM has: http://www.flickr.com/photos/48500638@N04/5767573245/ Cheers, Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Morning all, After viewing Paul Bartletts excellent photo site i noticed there does'nt appear to be many of the tank containers, is this because they are a relatively new addition to the range of containers available and perhaps not so many in use in the 1980's ? Also why do these freightliner chassis have the strange couplings on ? Were they run in fixed sets ? Thanks again for your help, patience and understanding. Terry. Tank containers weren't that important during the 1980s, and seemed to be confined to a limited number of flows (Guinness from Ireland and Tate and Lyle from Stratford being ones that spring to mind), so it's quite likely that Paul didn't encounter any at the terminals he photographed. What were much more common then than now were flat and half-height open containers carrying things like kegs of beer and large reels of paper. The Freightliner wagons were originally formed into five-wagon sets, with normal buffers and couplings at the outer ends only, and bar couplings within the sets. This is because the drawgear and buffer beam were above the wagon floor. To have a five-wagon set with drawgear at both ends would have added about 30' to the the length, equivalent to an additional pair of wagons on a 20 wagon train. It also reduced weight considerably. The downside was the relative inflexibility of fixed formations, and the loss of a whole set if one wagon had a defect (though there were adaptor wagons available) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Here's a couple on the move from 1986, same day, more or less the same location (Reading-Didcot), showing a pretty uniform company train (OCL?) and a more mixed one. Noticeable that the vast majority seem to be 20' ones, and they're not so heavily "branded" as current ones I think - more anonymous? If any container experts would like to add anything... Not sure i'd neccesarily agree with 'more anonymous' (true of some, but the same can be said today) - but the quality of paint and logos was definately not the same back then, and with many containers being base aluminium or white due to their construction there were fewer that were colourful like todays steel fleet is... First one is a solid set of OCL 20' reefers, they look to my eye like 8' tall ones too. Can't tell for sure, but one big change to reefers is how they are cooled - currently you have a fridge unit in one end, back then many were cryogenic, they had a plain end with a couple of big pipe connections, and they were cooled by a central plant whilst onboard ship - example: http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/ref/sudu2272352.jpg I think I had a shot of one of an OCL one from a contributor on Fotopic, if I can recover it i'll let you know. Box construction on them is likely to be either all aluminium or FRP sides (or a mix). You might be able to model that train using the old Farish 20' boxes (which represent the horizontally beaded early Freightliner boxes) sanded smooth then using home decals to livery and 'detail' the boxes up? Some thoughts on the second shot, firstly, very well loaded. Looks like all 40's and 20's, and all look to be 8'6" high in the front half of the train at least, there might be some 8's towards the back but I can't be sure. One thought from my memories back then is that such heavy loads wasn't always the case, empty space or even empty wagons was not rare, and with trains run in portions and with sets of 5 wagons you could get trains which had blocks that weren't always well loaded. That may save you some modelling time on boxes! Second - it shows *really* well how the mix of construction is so dramatically different from today, the first 3 wagons have 7 containers, but only two of them are steel construction, the first one (blue, possibly Interpool) and the 4th (brown 40') - hard to be sure from the angle but neither of those steel boxes look to me like modern style ones, both appear to have logo panels... The second box looks to be an aluminium sheet-and-post one in ACT livery, I think Paul had some of them in his pics. Another thought - open toppers and flatracks appear to have been more common (at least in ratio to 'standard' dry boxes) back then also, this train has at least two open top ones (the nearest looks like it might be Amficon?) - that doesn't seem unusual in shots of the period. Open toppers seem to have been steel construction... The site I linked to above is this one, which does have some useful pics for you, but you'll have to delve... http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/sea_containers1.htm Some examples from your era (although not shot in the UK): Dart Aluminium 40' - the aluminium ones have lots of rivets... http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/images/je/daru4167567.jpg Gelco 40' steel box - note square closely spaced ribs compared to modern corrugations, plus 2 logo panels http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/images/je/ctiu493458.jpg Hapag Lloyd FRP 40' box, gives you a big smooth white side to the container http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/images/je/hlcu437534.jpg ICCU steel 40', a good demonstration of early steel boxes all being very different, it's got no similarity to the Gelco one above! http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/images/je/ikku8034167.jpg Showa aluminium 40' http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/images/je/shwu2006527.jpg ACL 40' aluminium reefer, this one does have a mechanical reefer unit, but note how it's open at the sides unlike modern 40' ones http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/ref/aclu5006490.jpg Morflot open top steel box - this one, clearly brand new in 1985 shows the then new (but nowadays standard) bevelled corrugations, only the logo panels show it's age - you might be able to do something like this by kitbashing a modern Farish or C-Rail box, cutting in logo panels and dropping the top? http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part2/images/opentops/mmmu035011.jpg Microscale (www.microscale.com - a US manufacturer, you can order direct) does some decals that may help with modelling some of the stuff from this era also - check their products: 60-1233 60-298 60-299 60-443 Might be worth a look... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Class of '86 - this steel box is now a storage unit, but was built by Bootle Containers Ltd in April 1986 for Sea Containers so would have been bright shiny and new in your period - square ribs, two logo panels - not sure how original the orange paint is but Sea Containers did use that 'Sherbet orange' colour. No sign of any logo's on the logo panels though this: http://www.matts-pla...scxu7075243.jpg suggests the scheme may have once included one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 A couple of shots of the Holyhead - Trafford Park train in the early 80s $0063 MV 030482 (OCL and Freightliner) 25213 Banking the train up Platting bank A crop of the above showing the variations in the size of the containers And one of the Trafford Park to Holyhead (with some tank containers) 40063 070583 HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I think that shows the different look of one of Freightliners domestic (yes I know, Ireland, but you know what I mean) routes has though, that's dominated by Freightliner's own boxes, whereas the shots up-thread are trains from the deep-sea ports and have no Freightliner boxes in evidence (or at least none that can be identified easily) I think there's also a flatrack in the train with the tanks, and another open topper in the first train... The mix of 8' and 8'6" is nice and obvious too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I have already posted a few of my Freightliner photos on the 'Swansea Danygraig Freightliner Terminal' thread those trains contained a number of Freightliner owned boxes including half height and flat containers already mentioned. Here is one at Pengam not posted before, I think the Danygraig service had already arrived and the loco was marshalling the sets to combine with Pengams loadings for the day. 45015 carries out a shunt move at Pengam Terminal to form up trains for afternoon/evening departures, 17/9/81 cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Morning all, After viewing Paul Bartletts excellent photo site i noticed there does'nt appear to be many of the tank containers, is this because they are a relatively new addition to the range of containers available and perhaps not so many in use in the 1980's ? Also why do these freightliner chassis have the strange couplings on ? Were they run in fixed sets ? Thanks again for your help, patience and understanding. Terry. Yes, there weren't many liquids containers. I suspect that a reason for the increase is that before the Chunnel opened there was a lot of specialist tank wagons moving as ferry wagons to/from the continent. [The number of such diagrams is incredible! and plenty of photos on my site]. With the banning of hazardous loads via the Chunnel it may well be that the traffic has moved to being containerised - as well as the general effect of loads of all types simply moving over far greater international distances, so containerising such loads is more likely. Having said that, are they very common? I haven't noticed many on the trains which pass through York. Just wishful thinking on the model manufacturers part? Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Yes, there weren't many liquids containers. I suspect that a reason for the increase is that before the Chunnel opened there was a lot of specialist tank wagons moving as ferry wagons to/from the continent. [The number of such diagrams is incredible! and plenty of photos on my site]. With the banning of hazardous loads via the Chunnel it may well be that the traffic has moved to being containerised - as well as the general effect of loads of all types simply moving over far greater international distances, so containerising such loads is more likely. Having said that, are they very common? I haven't noticed many on the trains which pass through York. Just wishful thinking on the model manufacturers part? Paul Bartlett It still depends on the route; trains to Manchester/Liverpool would probably see quite a few on chemical traffic, whilst the Bristol sometimes has ones carrying wine. In the days when there were a dozen intermodals per day through the Tunnel, I once saw an inbound working consisting entirely of Holsten Pils tank containers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Paul, I would suggest these days tanks are somewhat more common on-rail than reefers, much more common than flatracks or open tops - but much, much less common than plain dry boxes, which really do dominate. Like Brian says though, highly dependant on which train, there's some regular moves out of Felixstowe for example which always have loads of reefers on, whereas overall they would be a real minority. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I once saw an inbound working consisting entirely of Holsten Pils tank containers. What an appalling thought! Almost as bad as block trains of French water! Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Martin Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Tank containers were much more common than reefers on trains at Seaforth (when we had a train). I can only think of a handful of occasions when I saw a reefer, whereas most days had several tanks. One book that the OP should consider getting hold of is this: http://www.abebooks.co.uk/9780860934554/Freightliner-Collins-Michael-J-0860934551/plp It was published in 1991, so your period is recent history; and it contains lots of information on wagons, containers (although next to nothing on the ISO boxes used on deep-sea flows) and operations. For the prices listed on that link, I'd say it was a steal. Jim EDIT: When I wrote about the prices on Abebooks, I was thinking of the ones that are £4-5 including postage. At that price it's a real bargain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Its also fairly common practice these days for liquids to be shipped bag-in-box, with a very large plastic bladder in a conventional 20ft 'dry' container - I believe Australian wine arrives in the UK like this for bottling locally. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redsrail Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Hello all, Work finished for another day, thankfully. Thanks for all the useful information you guys have shared here. I've now spoke to Adam at C-Rail and will be placing an order soon, and i also have bought http://www.abebooks....-0860934551/plp this as recommended by Jim Martin. Any more info is greatly received as i'm just a learner. Thanks Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stentor Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I've just got back from the Mendip 2014 model railway show. I bought a Hornby Freightliner wagon with 3 x BP Chemical containers on it from one of the sales stands there. I have never seen these on sale before but I understand that it is a Canadian Triang model R635. Question is was this ever a real prototype or is the container a work of pure fiction ? If it was a real container type when did they exist (I assume 80s by the logos) and where did they run from and to? Any help much appreciated. // Stentor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I've just got back from the Mendip 2014 model railway show. I bought a Hornby Freightliner wagon with 3 x BP Chemical containers on it from one of the sales stands there. I have never seen these on sale before but I understand that it is a Canadian Triang model R635. Question is was this ever a real prototype or is the container a work of pure fiction ? If it was a real container type when did they exist (I assume 80s by the logos) and where did they run from and to? Any help much appreciated. // Stentor I don't know how much you paid, but these reach silly prices on auction sites ( http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Hornby%20TRIANG%202%20X%20R635%20FREIGHTLINER%203%20x%2020%20CONTAINERS%20BP%20CHEMICALS%20RARE%20ITEMs&_itemId=351007678981 ) The models seem to be based on some early Freightliner, pre-ISO, containers, so mid-late 1960s. Certainly, BR's Freightliner subsiduary built a small number of similar containers for demonstration purposes in 1965. However, I've not seen any photos in commercial service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stentor Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Thanks Brian, £7.50 was how much I paid but that was for a clean but unboxed wagon. Pity that we're not used for real, I was hoping for some variety to put in my consists. I've got a couple of the brick open pallets which were real from what I have seen. // Stentor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Interesting thread will reread later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Thanks Brian, £7.50 was how much I paid but that was for a clean but unboxed wagon. Pity that we're not used for real, I was hoping for some variety to put in my consists. I've got a couple of the brick open pallets which were real from what I have seen. // Stentor The open containers saw quite a bit of use apart from bricks; steel coil and rod from the Rod Mill in Cardiff, paper and board from various locations, aluminium slabs, beer from Scottish and Newcastle to various locations. Some slightly longer (27') ones were semi-permanently mounted on ex-Boplate underframes and used on coil traffic from and within South Wales. I've heard them referred to as 'Lancashire Flats'; anyone have any ideas on the origin of this? Those tanks may have been used for real; it's just I haven't seen any photos beyond the prototypes. One of these was to be found at the BR Research Station in Derby, I believe, until quite recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Thanks Brian, £7.50 was how much I paid but that was for a clean but unboxed wagon. Pity that we're not used for real, I was hoping for some variety to put in my consists. I've got a couple of the brick open pallets which were real from what I have seen. // Stentor I wouldn't dismiss them so readily. As mentioned there were various ideas on tank containers before the concept of putting them inside a frame. I don't have any proof that the BP Chemicals ones existed, but look at http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e6874449d (and the photos either side) and http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e4e19c3b which is distinctive. Not a lot has been made easily available about Freightliner, the containers were worked from all over the world and seem to have had relatively short lives. A look through Collins, Michael J (1991) Freightliner (Life & Times series) pub Foulis-OPC 128 pages, ISBN 0-88093-455-1 gives some idea, but only brushes the surface. There are plenty of various tanks to be seen in the train pictures. As mentioned by Brian there were plenty of different open containers. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Bell Lines containers were quite prevalent in the late 80's and a distinctive livery as well: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49934-c-rail-irish-modelling-proposal/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stentor Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Thanks Paul, The lubrication oil tank container is quite a close match to the Triang tank with a bit of fettling. I'll have a try at that. That website of yours really is something special, thanks for what you do. // Stentor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 As this has resurfaced - The Anchor butter train mentioned in several posts ran from Tilbury, as that was the UK port served by the ANZ conference joint service, which had the contracts with the big Antipodean perishable foodstuffs marketing boards . I think Anchor butter is or was the British brand of the NZ Dairy Board , and the name alludes to the fact it comes by ship... GloriousNSE was spot on in suggesting they looked like 8' boxes, as they will have been 8' high 20' porthole reefers . The ANZ trade conference vessels were "con-air" reefer vessels, with a central plant blowing refridgerated air into the boxes through banks of pipe connections on board. These connections gave rise to the two distinctive round "portholes" in the end . Modern reefers are "integrals" with their own cooling plant built into the end. The traditional dominance of reefer cargo in the northbound ANZ trades made it seem worthwhile building the first generation containerships with fixed plant: I can still remember the capacities for the big OCL vessels : 2078TEU SB, 1223TEU reefer/453TEU dry NB . And in the seasonal peaks every reefer slot NB would be full for 3 months. The SA consortium service into Southampton, SAECS, also used blown air reefer in a similar way, but they were 8'6" boxes OCL [Overseas Containers Ltd} was a joint venture of all the British publicly quoted shipping lines at the start of containerisation, covering all trades. Gradually most of the 5 shareholders sold out until P+O became 100% owners in mid 1987, at which point it became P+OCL . Not to be confused with OOCL - Orient Overseas Container Line ,- invariably called Double O CL. Casual references to "OO" in shipping have nothing to do with a 4mm scale gauge.... The British privately owned lines tried to set up their own version of OCL , called ACT. However this ended up as a series of small sister companies in each trade .. The bottom photo in post 32 shows a "rare cop" as the first wagon - two EHCL 20's separated by a 20' Shipper's own tank . Ellerman Harrison Container Line were the ACT group company in the South African trade , but goodness knows what 2 EHCL boxes are doing in a Trafford Park /Holyhead train. They show what was meant to be the ACT house style of blue company initials boxed in on 3 sides by a thin blue line. ACTA in the ANZ trade used similar - and the Triang-Hornby Freightliner FAA flat was actually produced with a set of ACT boxes as a marketing exercise in Australia in the early 1970s . I managed to salvage the original file complete with Triang -Hornby catalogue when we were having a clearout of the Commercial Department files in the late 80s , and I thought these wagons had only been produced for Australia, in the days when Margate had an Australian subsidiary - but a few years later I found one being sold on a second hand traders stall over here and bought it . ACTA and EHCL were bought out by P+OCL in 1991. The Far East trade equivalent was Ben Line Containers, dominated by Ben Line of Edinburgh who insisted their own name was used , and would have none of the "Corporate ACT" style - they insisted all their boxes would have BEN in big letters on the side (I think some boxes were allowed to have "Ellerman" in small letters at one end...) ACL (Atlantic Container Line ) arose in a similar style on the North American trade - Cunard were the British partner- but evolved into a stand alone company and are still with us, owned by Grimaldi Perhaps the simplest of the 70s /80's liveries to do would be Blue Star Line (shareholder in ACTA and part of the Vestey Group) and HSDG , a surviving German line. Take Knightwing container. Paint white. Add the words BLUE STAR in large blue capitals , or HAMBURG SUD in large red capitals. Number . Weather lightly,,,, Triang-Hornby also produced a representation of a 20'half height , an idea from the start of containerisation that never really took off Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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