Goods Train Operation

[andyrush]

Thanks Brian - I'll keep a look out.

 

Also found this on t'internet:

http://www.robbiesro...tyby-Main00.jpg

 

Seems to be a large selection on offer; anybody we know?

 

Never heard of him, they look OK from pics on his website.

 

Andy

[melmerby]

Never heard of him, they look OK from pics on his website.

 

Andy

If you fancy doing it yourself the transfer paper is available here:

http://www.craftycomputerpaper.co.uk/category/Decal-Paper

 

Keith

[jwealleans]

I think I'm right in saying that the Robbie's transfers fit RTR wagons, so they're similarly dimensionally challenged. Probably OK for your purposes 4479 but don't try them on a kit.

[andyrush]

I think I've run out of steam (or coal) with regards to PO wagons for the time being, so I think I will move onto another subject in 'LNER4479's' list of interests. This one also has the merit that it can continue through to the 1970's or thereabouts.

 

Express Goods Trains

 

First, a bit of history! ‘Express Goods Trains’ seemed to have evolved in the early 20^th century from what later came to be called Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS) trains. Admitting my GER bias, I will say that I know only a little about the GNR and nothing in detail about other companies, but samplings of their WTT’s and Appendices suggest a similar progression, albeit over greatly differing timescales.

 

The first fully fitted non passenger services were composed of specialised vehicles designed for carrying such perishable traffic as meat, fish and milk, or live animals such as horses or prize cattle. All of these vehicles would have had oil axleboxes so that they could run without restriction attached to passenger trains and would have been fitted with the braking system of their owning company, either vacuum or Westinghouse. Almost from the start most were dual braked, allowing them to undertake journeys off their home system, but as there were comparatively few of these vehicles, their use was as tightly controlled as passenger carrying rolling stock. So far as can be ascertained from looking at photographs (mostly of GE and GN trains, admittedly), such vehicles were rarely to be found in the make up of ordinary goods trains, at that time, always composed of unfitted wagons.

 

Before moving to the general introduction of fitted goods trains, a word needs to be said about the rates charged for the movement of goods. Broadly speaking, all traffic was charged at either ‘passenger’ or ‘goods’ rate and this reflected the type of train by which wagons were conveyed, with passenger rated traffic costing more for a speedier transit. Such traffic was routinely attached to passenger trains and detached and attached, in some cases many times, in the course of a long journey. With the speeding up of passenger trains (and the increasing weight of ever more luxurious coaching stock), the time and inconvenience of this constant shunting of vehicles at nearly every principal station became untenable.

 

As a result, in the early 1900’s several of the ‘vacuum braked’ railways started running fast fully fitted goods trains, which, because only ‘goods’ rates were charged, rapidly became quite popular. This seems to have been largely an ‘operational’ development and was not viewed particularly favourably by the commercial part of the railway companies, who saw the ‘premium’ rates charged for passenger rated traffic disappearing. The competition between companies for this fast goods traffic quickly became quite intense, with the Chairman of the GER declaring that the fast carriage of traffic at goods rates was ‘unfair’. The vacuum system of braking quickly became the norm for such trains and by 1905, the GNR, for example, was running 17 such trains daily including the forerunner of the later ‘Scotch Goods’ at 3.40pm from Kings Cross Goods. Many of these services were booked to be worked by express passenger locos such as Atlantics. The GER was forced to respond, and introduced vacuum braked trains from Spitalfields to Doncaster in 1906, having built some vacuum (only) fitted vans and converted some Claud Hamilton 4-4-0’s to dual braking.

 

More to come

[Buckjumper]

I didn't know about the Coote & Warren situation, that's very interesting. In my appeal for 'mundanity' I don't want to try and rule out genuine 'odd' occurrences if there is photographic or documentary evidence for them, but the trouble is that the unusual becomes the norm. I wouldn't be surprised if every GE area pre-group layout doesn't now feature a train with an Exhall wagon in it, joining the inevitable Time Coal Company of West Green!

 

Ha! Irony of ironies; Basilica Fields is one of the few layouts that could legitimately run both Time Coal Coy.'s Number 1 and G Simmons of Hoe Street (tho' the running number 10 appears to be erroneous - the four wagons ordered were numbered 40, 50, 60 and 70). Also, since discovering Exhall's push into swede country, other photographic examples have appeared, though mostly (and not surprisingly) in the Peterborough District.

[andyrush]

Ha! Irony of ironies; Basilica Fields is one of the few layouts that could legitimately run both Time Coal Coy.'s Number 1 and G Simmons of Hoe Street (tho' the running number 10 appears to be erroneous - the four wagons ordered were numbered 40, 50, 60 and 70). Also, since discovering Exhall's push into swede country, other photographic examples have appeared, though mostly (and not surprisingly) in the Peterborough District.

Excellent. Just so long as you've got a convincing 'back story' about where they are getting their coal from!

 

Andy

[Buckjumper]

 

As a result, in the early 1900’s several of the ‘vacuum braked’ railways started running fast fully fitted goods trains, which, because only ‘goods’ rates were charged, rapidly became quite popular. This seems to have been largely an ‘operational’ development and was not viewed particularly favourably by the commercial part of the railway companies, who saw the ‘premium’ rates charged for passenger rated traffic disappearing. The competition between companies for this fast goods traffic quickly became quite intense, with the Chairman of the GER declaring that the fast carriage of traffic at goods rates was ‘unfair’. The vacuum system of braking quickly became the norm for such trains and by 1905, the GNR, for example, was running 17 such trains daily including the forerunner of the later ‘Scotch Goods’ at 3.40pm from Kings Cross Goods. Many of these services were booked to be worked by express passenger locos such as Atlantics. The GER was forced to respond, and introduced vacuum braked trains from Spitalfields to Doncaster in 1906, having built some vacuum (only) fitted vans and converted some Claud Hamilton 4-4-0’s to dual braking.

 

 

IIRC ten Clauds converted and 500 vans built along with 8 goods brakes, followed by 100 open fish and 25 cattle the following year (and presumably a few more brakes alongside). What I've not yet been able to ascertain is which brake vans were used. I assume they were the then current 20T six-wheeled jobbies, though I've not seen any photos to confirm.

[Buckjumper]

Excellent. Just so long as you've got a convincing 'back story' about where they are getting their coal from!

 

 

Evidence so far suggests Simmons usually obtained coals from Yorkshire, so Whitemoor to Temple Mills and then onwards. Time Coal obtained coals from Blackwell on the Midland, so Toton to Brent, then onto Temple Mills (possibly via the Tottenham & Hampstead?) and then onwards. Corrections to any flaws in my pseudo-logic gratefully received!

 

For ref, Basilica Fields (GE) is supposed to be in the vicinity of Globe Road & Devonshire Street and Coborn Road.

[andyrush]

Evidence so far suggests Simmons usually obtained coals from Yorkshire, so Whitemoor to Temple Mills and then onwards. Time Coal obtained coals from Blackwell on the Midland, so Toton to Brent, then onto Temple Mills (possibly via the Tottenham & Hampstead?) and then onwards. Corrections to any flaws in my pseudo-logic gratefully received!

 

For ref, Basilica Fields (GE) is supposed to be in the vicinity of Globe Road & Devonshire Street and Coborn Road.

The geography would suggest that they would both have some difficulty getting to their destinations from Temple Mills via Basilica Fields, unless you've added a new curve in the vicinity of Bethnal Green 

 

Andy

[LNERGE]

Yorkshire coal, Durham coal they wanted them kept apart.. Check out the right hand end of this diagram.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/8009687802/sizes/k/in/photostream/

[andyrush]

And now that this forum appears to be working again, the saga continues

 

Express Goods Trains

 

Moving to post grouping times at the southern end of the LNER, the ex GNR K2’s and K3’s appear to have quickly taken over most existing fast goods trains, the use of the former from 1925 on the Spitalfields – Doncaster services via the GN&GE Joint line allowed the loads of these trains to be increased from 25 wagons to 40. Photographic evidence suggests that south of York, the daytime fitted goods trains were largely in the hands of  K3’s until the advent of the V2’s, the latter allowing the loads to be considerably increased. The overnight fish trains, which seemed to have still run as ‘passenger rated’ services were apparently worked by ‘Large Atlantics’ between York or Doncaster and Kings Cross. A running foreman at Stratford and a former Doncaster fireman used to regale me with tales of these trains running ‘block and block’ with the sleeping car trains, the workings being known as ‘wet shirt jobs’!

 

An area which, to me, remains a bit of a mystery, is the classification of fast goods trains. By end of WW1 the RCH standard instructions for headlights for ‘fast’ goods trains, as described in the GER 1919 Appendix gave the following:

Lamps top centre and bottom left (as viewed from ahead):

Fish, Meat, Fruit, Horse, Cattle or Perishable Traffic train composed of Coaching stock, Empty Coaching Stock train and Engine with Gas Tank Trucks or Vacuum Breaked (sic) Express Goods train

Lamps top centre and bottom right

Fish, Meat or Fruit train, composed of Goods Stock, Express Cattle or Express Goods train Class A

Lamps top centre and bottom centre

Express Cattle or Express Goods train, Class B

 

The NER 1922 Appendix tells a broadly similar tale except that it makes no provision for a vacuum braked express goods train in the first category. The NER book also mentions speeds for the other two classes, A – 30mph and B – 25mph. At an unknown (to me) date (between 1926 and 1931 from photographic evidence) the LNER Express Goods train classifications were altered to cope with the increasing numbers of ‘piped’ wagons (through vacuum pipe but no automatic brakes on the vehicle itself). It is possible that the use of these wagons was codified earlier but I have found no documentary evidence for this.

Lamps bottom centre and bottom right

No.1 Express Goods – vacuum piped throughout. A table showed what proportion of fully braked vehicles had to be conveyed, no two adjacent wagons were to be piped only and the brake van had to have an operative vacuum brake. Average speed 50mph

Lamp bottom left

No.2 Express Goods – partially fitted with a table showing what proportion of fully fitted wagons had to be coupled next to the engine. Average speed 40mph

Lamps bottom centre and bottom left

No.3 Express Goods (Braked) - partially fitted with a table showing what proportion of fully fitted wagons had to be coupled next to the engine. Average speed 35mph

Lamps bottom centre and bottom left

No.3 Express Goods (Braked) – maximum load of 45 loaded or 50 empty wagons. 2 or 3 fully fitted wagons to be coupled next to the engine if possible. Average speed 35mph

Lamps top centre and bottom right

Class A Express Goods - unbraked

 

This classification lasted on the LNER and BR (ER) until 5 June 1950, when the following was substituted:

Lamps bottom centre and bottom left

Class C – Express Freight, Livestock, Perishable or Ballast Train, piped throughout, with the automatic brake operative on not less than half the wagons

Lamps top centre and bottom left

Class D - Express Freight, Livestock, Perishable or Ballast Train, partially fitted with the automatic brake operative on not less than one third of the wagons

Lamps bottom centre and bottom right

Class E - Express Freight, Livestock, Perishable or Ballast Train, partially fitted, with not less than four fully fitted wagons to be coupled next to the engine

Lamps bottom centre and bottom right

Class E - Express Freight, Livestock, Perishable or Ballast Train with a limited load of wagons NOT fitted with the continuous brake

Lamps top centre and bottom right

Class F - Express Freight - unbraked

 

So far as the make up of express freight trains is concerned, ‘getting it right’ is much more simple than it is with private owner wagons in that the average train can be made up of any preferred combination of fitted vans, highs and loaded container flats. The use of wagon sheets was much more prevalent on the prototype than on the average model railway, both on open wagons and as a temporary remedy for leaking roofs on vans and containers. Since WW1, most company vans and open merchandise wagons were pooled as were wagon sheets. LNER, LMS and SR cattle wagons followed into the pooling scheme in 1927, but GWR cattle wagons stayed non common user until WW2 at least. During the twenties and thirties a large quantity of cattle was consigned from southern Ireland to East Anglia (no, I don’t know why!) and as it arrived in GW cattle wagons the LNER made special arrangements to return them to their parent system by sending them empty from their unloading point to Cambridge, where they were cleaned and formed into trainloads to be worked home specially via the London junctions. Pooled vans and opens were moved to the nearest large yard (Ferme Park and New England as far as the GN line was concerned) for onward orders from the Wagon Control organisation and then they tended to move in ‘blocks’.

 

The use of specialised wagons on ordinary daytime up express freight trains was quite limited as much meat, fish and fruit traffic passed overnight, although the down empties often passed in block loads (in BR days, 1126 9.40am Kings Cross Goods - New Clee fish empties, for example). Also in BR days, 262 2.35pm Kings Cross – Haymarket was the nominated service for meat empties but often seems to have conveyed cattle wagons, presumably loaded, as well. With the growing use of insulated containers, there was a ‘circular’ movement of such containers moving loaded from Scotland to Kings Cross Goods then empty to Victoria Docks for reloading with frozen meat from Argentina and New Zealand before heading north again on the Thames Wharf – Niddrie via the GE main line and down the Joint (Stratford Britannia to Grassmoor Junction with a York V2 working forward for much of the 1950’s)

 

Fruit vans on overnight goods services went to Kings Cross off the M&GN system but were rare in either direction north of Peterborough. Some soft fruit from market gardens was dispatched from Biggleswade and Sandy on fast goods services, with the ‘Scotch Goods’ spending 30 minutes attaching at the latter place in 1953. As most the pictures I have seen of 266 down are south of Sandy (or if north thereof the photographer has concentrated on the thing on the front), I don’t know what sort of vehicles were used. Sandy also dispatched passenger rated fruit traffic on a down parcels train in the 1950’s but both photographic evidence and the Carriage Working booklets show ordinary vans used for this.

 

Empty open wagons were not to be seen on GN line express goods trains, when unloaded in the London area (if not reloaded there) they tended to go into the empty fitted high circuit which took them to Fletton and Yaxley to be loaded with bricks. Obviously it is not possible to know whether there are any empty vans on trains seen in photographs, but in my experience there weren’t any on fitted trains from Whitemoor unless they were in some sort of circuit working and I don’t suppose GN line practice was markedly different.

 

Andy

[andyrush]

Yorkshire coal, Durham coal they wanted them kept apart.. Check out the right hand end of this diagram.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/8009687802/sizes/k/in/photostream/

I assume this is a carry over from WW2 when the 'Convoy' trains from the north east were running via the GN&GE Joint and the Cambridge main line. Prior to the war, this coal went by coastal shipping and was unloaded into lighters for various industries accessed from the Thames. About thirty years ago I managed to copy a faded circular showing five such trains a day running each way between Doncaster and Whitemoor in early 1941 but the passage of time was not kind to the heat sensitive paper I copied to! The trains were not shunted at Whitemoor, merely shown for examination and re-engining, and because the circular related to the Joint Line, no specific origin points or destination(s) were shown. I suspect they must have run as specials throughout the war as there is no reference to them in a 1943 WTT I have.

 

Thanks for posting the scan.

 

Andy

[The Stationmaster]

The NER 1922 Appendix tells a broadly similar tale except that it makes no provision for a vacuum braked express goods train in the first category. The NER book also mentions speeds for the other two classes, A – 30mph and B – 25mph. At an unknown (to me) date (between 1926 and 1931 from photographic evidence) the LNER Express Goods train classifications were altered to cope with the increasing numbers of ‘piped’ wagons (through vacuum pipe but no automatic brakes on the vehicle itself). It is possible that the use of these wagons was codified earlier but I have found no documentary evidence for this.

Lamps bottom centre and bottom right

No.1 Express Goods – vacuum piped throughout. A table showed what proportion of fully braked vehicles had to be conveyed, no two adjacent wagons were to be piped only and the brake van had to have an operative vacuum brake. Average speed 50mph

Lamp bottom left

No.2 Express Goods – partially fitted with a table showing what proportion of fully fitted wagons had to be coupled next to the engine. Average speed 40mph

Lamps bottom centre and bottom left

No.3 Express Goods (Braked) - partially fitted with a table showing what proportion of fully fitted wagons had to be coupled next to the engine. Average speed 35mph

Lamps bottom centre and bottom left

No.3 Express Goods (Braked) – maximum load of 45 loaded or 50 empty wagons. 2 or 3 fully fitted wagons to be coupled next to the engine if possible. Average speed 35mph

Lamps top centre and bottom right

Class A Express Goods - unbraked

 

 

 

 

Andy

 

Andy are you sure they are average speeds and not maximum speeds?  The reason I ask is that on the GW a partially fitted Express Freight (Class C) was allowed a maximum speed of 35mph.  For a train to run at the sort of start to stop averages you have mentioned - such as 50 mph in particular - would require some very fast running and would more than likely have been restricted to wagons with oil axleboxes only?

[andyrush]

Andy are you sure they are average speeds and not maximum speeds?  The reason I ask is that on the GW a partially fitted Express Freight (Class C) was allowed a maximum speed of 35mph.  For a train to run at the sort of start to stop averages you have mentioned - such as 50 mph in particular - would require some very fast running and would more than likely have been restricted to wagons with oil axleboxes only?

Yes Mike, those average speeds are quoted on pages 50 and 51 in the 1947 LNER General Appendix and they weren't changed in the No.1 Supplement of June 1956. In the Speeds of Freight Rolling Stock table on page 49 of the Appendix,  wagon stock fitted with screw couplings, vacuum brake and in accordance with coaching stock requirements (i.e marked XP and therefore with oil axleboxes and bolted springs) have no maximum speed shown!

 

I can remember standing on Hitchin platform in the late 1950's and watching class C's go bouncing through almost as fast as the expresses and I didn't ever see goods trains run as fast anywhere else until the advent of freightliners.

 

Andy

[jwealleans]

Andy are you sure they are average speeds and not maximum speeds?  The reason I ask is that on the GW a partially fitted Express Freight (Class C) was allowed a maximum speed of 35mph.  For a train to run at the sort of start to stop averages you have mentioned - such as 50 mph in particular - would require some very fast running and would more than likely have been restricted to wagons with oil axleboxes only?

 

Mike - have you ever read the Gerry Fiennes passage about Bill Hoole and the 'Scotch Goods' catching up the Talisman somwehere up the East Coast?

[LNER4479]

 

Staying with the PO Wagon theme for the moment and looking at Grantham in the immediate pre-WW2 period, rather than worrying about the relatively few 'confirmed sightings' of particular wagons, perhaps an easier approach would be to consider what PO wagons would have pretty definitely worked through and on what trains. Just using the Powsides list, I have come up with the following:

 

(LIST)

 

This is a quick and dirty exercise and I haven't checked the dates of the particular liveries offered by Powsides, but I reckon all of the above would probably stand up to inspection by most wagon nerds (who me?)

 

Certainly, a cursory look round suggests that there aren't many authentic RTR PO wagons suitable for Grantham on the market at the moment. I must pay more attention to what the liveries are of the ones I buy up cheap (a fiver and under) in order to repaint them into 1956 condition!

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

Thanks for posting latest info on Express Freights.

 

Can I revert to PO Coal for a moment though (as I still have quite a few questions!):

 

Your list of suitable POWsides traders was very useful; however I did 'indulge' myself in a little light browse through my reference books as I do quite like to know that I can call on a picture if ever challenged (but I agree it's important to verify to make sure you haven't merely stumbled upon the exception to the rule). My review caught this little haul:

 

LNER Goods traffic (Goslin)

p.3 J6 heading north: ‘Maltby’, ‘S C’ (Stephenson Clarke)

From Chapter 2 – Peterborough to London coal traffic

p.8 P1 heading south: ‘??? & Warren’ (Peterborough)

p.21 O2 heading north: ‘S C’. O4 heading north ‘Russell & Co’ (London) on adjacent track

p.22 O2 heading north, coal train in background: ‘Judbud’, ‘Charringtons’, ‘Cornwall’, ‘Maltby’, ‘POP’ (others decipherable if you know the names you’re looking for)

p.24 J3 heading south: ‘C.R.P. Best Anthracite steam & house coals’ (Swansea)’ (empty), ‘S C’ (full) – which perfectly illustrates the point about welsh coal wagons

p.31 P1 heading south: ‘Cortonwood’(?) can’t quite make it out but there’s two of them

From Chapter 5 – Nottingham to Grantham Line

p.69 O4 heading east: ‘R Cooper & Sons Ltd’(?), ‘CWS’ (London) (5 of these)

 

British Railways Goods Wagons in Colour (Hendry)

p.30 Colour photo of K3 arriving in Cambridge. Informative caption highlights the following: ‘Bullcroft’, ‘Dalton Main’, ‘Wharncliffe Woodmoor’, ‘S C’. Info for the SC wagon reads: ‘This stands for Stephenson Clarke and Associated Companies Ltd, which operated over 10,000 wagons, which could be seen throughout England and Wales even before pooling… Most carried a prominent SC on the side’.

 

Freight Train Operation (Essery)

p.77 A3(!) heading south: ‘Sherwood’, ‘Judbud’

 

Railway Portraits (Atkins)

p.25 Newark goods yard: ‘Tarmac’ (at least 5)

p.39 Newark goods yard: ‘Willingsworth’, ‘J ? Ltd’(?)

 

LNER Steam at Grantham (Cawston)

p.42 Q1 heading south: ‘S C’

p.43 O2 heading south: ‘M C C’(?) (Micklefield Coal Co?)

 

LNER Album Vol.1 (Stephenson)

p.17 P1 heading south: ‘Eveson’

 

LNER (Hughes)

p.65 P1 heading south: first wagon ‘NE’ then: ‘S C’

 

Matching these then with your list, S C (Stephenson Clarke) is the most obvious stand out candidate (given they had 'over 10,000 wagons' perhaps not too surprising!) so I shall set about getting hold of some of these. Maltby also seems a good bet. Can you shed any light on 'Judbud' (slightly unusual name?) as that one has turned up twice too.

 

Other questions arising:

 

Was loco coal transported in normal coal train consists or were there dedicated workings for this (the railway's own internal traffic).

 

Was coke transported separately or again mixed in the normal coal consists? I fear I may have rather too many coke wagons (assuming that these are the ones with the extended sides due to coke being a less dense commodity).

 

One for you finally. According to Goslin, much of the traffic from Doncaster was sent south via the GE/GN joint and would not therefore have passed through Grantham. Also, Colwick-Peterborough trains were also routed across to Sleaford (to pick up the GE/GN joint) and would thus avoid Grantham, even though it was a considerably longer route. Such pathings I assume would be to avoid congestion on the main ECML and keep the route clear for the expresses over what was largely ‘only’ a double track railway.

 

That having been said, I do plan to depict some Colwick-Peterborough coal trains on Grantham as it does appear that some did pass through nonetheless (I'm configuring the fiddle yard especially to cope with them!)

 

Thanks for your efforts - great reading.

[LNERGE]

I assume this is a carry over from WW2 when the 'Convoy' trains from the north east were running via the GN&GE Joint and the Cambridge main line. Prior to the war, this coal went by coastal shipping and was unloaded into lighters for various industries accessed from the Thames. About thirty years ago I managed to copy a faded circular showing five such trains a day running each way between Doncaster and Whitemoor in early 1941 but the passage of time was not kind to the heat sensitive paper I copied to! The trains were not shunted at Whitemoor, merely shown for examination and re-engining, and because the circular related to the Joint Line, no specific origin points or destination(s) were shown. I suspect they must have run as specials throughout the war as there is no reference to them in a 1943 WTT I have.

 

Thanks for posting the scan.

 

Andy

Thanks Andy

 

Pway Owen will be posting a fair number of March area diagrams in due course.

[jwealleans]

Can I stick my oar in again here and then Andy or anyone else can correct me if I've got the wrong end of any sticks?

 

Coote & Warren, I think. A Cambridgeshire coal merchant. Google throws up quite a few references including a presence in Nottingham - offices each end of the traffic flow?

 

Judbud I think we've mentioned - a large London merchant. They appear a few times in John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon (a must if you really want to take these wagons seriously).

 

Isn't 'CWS' Co-operative Wholesale Society? In which case you could probably see them all over the place.

 

I think the K3 at Cambridge photo is wartime and so perhaps not to be relied on too much.

 

Powsides do two or perhaps 3 different lettering styles for Stephenson Clarke so they'd be a good start.

 

Another point which it might be salient to raise here; although we tend to think of the RCH 1923 standard coal wagon when we say 'mineral', the majority of wagons at the outbreak of the war were to older standards (the 1907, for example). I don't have my printed source to hand but it might even have been as few as 25% were to the latest spec. So as well as the Parkside kit, you need to look at the different Slaters models and the Cambrian varieties as well.

 

Another oddity which I've been looking for but haven't yet found - a V2 coming up past Belle Isle in about 1938. It's a very well known shot. In the rake of coal wagons in the background is a 4 plank wagon branded 'Clee Hill' (a crushed granite supplier) - loaded with coal. You'd be crucified if you did that on a serious layout.

[Buckjumper]

Can you shed any light on 'Judbud' (slightly unusual name?) as that one has turned up twice too.

Judbud; Judd, Budd Ltd, formerly (Harry) Judd, (Arthur Hambrook) Budd & Son (partnership dissolved 1st Dec. 1922). Massive London coal factor dealing predominantly in house coals and regularly obtaining them from Leicestershire, Derbyshire, Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire fields with less frequent supplies from Staffordshire, Shropshire and North Wales. There were some steam coal contracts such as London Metropolitan Water which had Staffs, Notts & Scottish coals, Greenwich power station was supplied with Scottish coals, and the Brighton Corporation which was supplied with Welsh and Notts coals. Bestwood Colliery in Notts was one of their biggest suppliers and the colliery owners purchased a third share in the company in the 30s. The company supplied anthracite from South Wales collieries, but their biggest involvement with anthracite was from the screening plant in London. Coals from Scotland arrived by sea, and after processing were delivered by rail to stations and sidings nominated by the customer.

 

Turton Vol.6 has more info and records the running numbers of 600+ new wagons ordered between 1924 - 1936.

 

Edit: Duff English.

[Buckjumper]

 

 

Coote & Warren, I think. A Cambridgeshire coal merchant. Google throws up quite a few references including a presence in Nottingham - offices each end of the traffic flow?

 

 

A Peterborough-based coal factor, though the head office was in London with another in St. Ives. As far as I understand it there were representatives based at Toton. There's a huge piece on them in Turton Vol.5.

 

Edit: I can't spell today.

[Buckjumper]

The geography would suggest that they would both have some difficulty getting to their destinations from Temple Mills via Basilica Fields, unless you've added a new curve in the vicinity of Bethnal Green 

 

It's worrying when the back story you've built up in your head displaces reality Yes, my alternate universe has an eastern curve at Bethnal Green installed in the 1890s (and will be destroyed in a Zeppelin raid in 1917) to limit the number of reversals at Liverpool Street. Of course in reality goods reversals occurred at Liverpool St, though they were for traffic to and from the ELR.

[jwealleans]

I've just flicked through john Hayes' book to refresh my memory; another merchant worth looking at from a modelling point of view might be Ricketts - their wagons could be lettered 'Ricketts' or 'Rickett' and quite a few had the 'London plank' - there's a local oddity worth knowing about.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I think the very fine dust seen in modern MGR wagons dates from the 1950’s when the method of firing power station boilers

seems to have changed.

 The existence of LNER side discharge hopper wagons built 1939 for fine washed coal (p63 of Tatlow mk1) may indicate an earlier start? I am not fuly up on power station water tube boiler tech (yet) but I believe experiments with 'dust' combustion were well underway by then.

 

Mike - have you ever read the Gerry Fiennes passage about Bill Hoole and the 'Scotch Goods' catching up the Talisman somwehere up the East Coast?

 The fast goods were the thing that got me really thrilled on the East Coast route. They went as fast as the express passenger traffic, pacific or V2 on the front. Noisy and immensely impressive. The 'fish' which were largely invisible thanks to night time operation, were run so fast the rules had to be varied placing the brake van a third in from the train end to give the guard a somewhat better ride.

[Poggy1165]

On the question of cattle, I understand they were often shipped from Scotland to England for final fattening before sale. And I have recently come by a GCR document off Ebay that confirms flows of cattle from Holyhead and Liverpool to Yorkshire (and probably beyond) in 1907. I suspect LNW and CL cattle vans for this traffic, but I don't actually know. This traffic would almost certainly originate in Ireland.

 

Another interesting implication of the document is that coal was sent from Lancashire to Yorkshire. At least some eastbound trains were described as 'coal' rather than 'coal empties'. This really surprised me as I understood Lancashire coal was generally inferior in quality and would not be worth transporting to another major coalfield. I think this demonstrates that at least some flows were less than obvious.

[asmay2002]

In a slight drift of topic, there are other complicating factors in East coast coal traffic to East Anglia and that is the coal shipped by Sea to East coast ports and London from Northumberland and Durham. This might then make a shortish trip in a merchants or users wagon to the point of use. This traffic flowed in the opposite direction to the export coal from the Notts/Derbys area to Holland/Belgium. (So you could see loaded wagons going both to and from E Coast ports - albeit different wagons) A U-Boat infested North Sea reduced this trade in both wars for the duration with rail having to do the best it could to make up the large shortfall. In happier times before WW2 a lot of coal took the sea route (I have a feeling that I read somewhere that more coal for London went by Sea than rail from the North East).