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I am currently in the process of creating a number of etches to convert the David Geen 4mm kit to types not covered by the two currently avaliable. This is a lengthy process and has involved measuring up vehicles in the Winter cold  and trips to the NRM in search of drawings (it's a hard life I know :) ). There will evenually be 6 chassis etches covering GWR 20'6 and 21'6 types, Post War LMS diagrams and the other LMS ones, SR and LNER. CAD drawings for the chassis are all but complete (you'd be suprised how many differences there are) and will be similar to this:

post-13847-0-53955800-1358011148.jpg

 

Then there will be detailing etches covering things like brake levers, walk ways, ladders and platforms etc all in order to produce a model of the Whitland to Kensington milk train in the mid sixties. Details of the models I've attacked so far and further details on the chassis can be found here. And just to wet you appetite:

post-13847-0-43866900-1358011124.jpg

 

As you can imagine with a type of vehicle that covered some 50 odd diagrams (including 2000 gallon types and Ro-Rail trailers) from 4 underframe 'suppliers' there are some grey areas that I hope someone out there will be able to help with.

 

 

LNER milk tanks:

 

 

I have details of the diagram numbers for these but no information on lot numbers, running numbers and almost as important which dairies had which lots. The other three companies allocated lots to a batch of vehicles for a specific diary so I assume that the LNER did the same? If anyone can help with this or point me in the right direction that would be great.

 

Also any photos of LNER types again would be great. I'm aware of the photos on Paul Bartlett's site. I seem to remember seeing a photo of one with platforms somewhere but I have no idea where it was.

 

 

SR milk tanks:

 

 

I have details of diagrams and running numbers and some for which diaries were associated with which type. Diagrams 3155 and 3157 where Unigate (eventually of course) and 3159 were Express Dairies, does anyone have any information on the others?

 

 

GWR milk tanks:

 

 

Does anyone know which Dairies were assocaited with diagrams O.61 and O.63?

 

A good reference for milk tank diagrams collated from various scources can be found here. It isn't exhaustive but it's a start.

 

 

Many thanks,

 

 

Justin

 

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Hi Justin,

 

Well I will leave my tanks in the box for a bit longer! Very nice work sir, is it possible to add my name to a purchase list? 

 

Regards,


Nick.

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Justin, there was a major article in a BRILL Annual some years ago called "On the milk" which may help.  i don't have time to look it out now but will happily do so after the weekend.

 

Chris

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Hi Nick,

 

Of course! All the etches will be avaliable once they're done and I'm happy with them. It might be a little while before everything's done though, there's a lot to get through!

 

Hi Chris,

 

That would be fantasic thanks. Any help would be much appreciated.

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I built a couple of these a while back but I cannot remember off hand as to what diagram they were,

 


post-7101-0-73573300-1358202722.jpg

 

Martyn.

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Hi Martyn,

 

The model you have posted the picture of is a GWR O.42. These were Express Dairies tanks and is the same diagram as my model above depicts. I need to change mine as Express Dairies didn't (as far as I'm aware) have any concerns in South Wales, which is my area of interest, and so is unsuitable. It will get rebuilt into a United Dairies GWR O.39 once I've got the etches for the platforms done.

 

Without wishing to be too much of a pedant the number on your model doesn't correspond with an O.42. W2009 was a United Dairies O.44 and is still in existance at Mangapps. There's a picture of it here. They began life as 4 wheel tanks to diagram O.23 but were rebuilt as 6 wheelers and became diagram O.44 in the process. They had different arrangements for the tank strapping brackets, tank fittings and also supports from the O.42s. The O.42s also originally had cooling covers but these were later removed.

 

Numbers for the O.42s were as follows:

Lot 1561 built 9/35 2561-2563

Lot 1607 built 8/37 2593-2594

Lot 1613 built 8/37 2595-2598

Add a W depending on timeframe of course.

 

Always nice to see pictures of milk tank models. 

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There is some information about LNER milk tanks and a drawing in Historic Carriage Drawings Vol 3.  There is a photo of one in United Dairies livery but no indication as to colour.  I did try to contact Glenn Woods, who I was told was working on a book on the subject, but never received a reply. 

 

I converted 3 to an LNER diagram using the Hornby model as a basis and in what is almost certainly an incorrect livery:

 

milktrain.jpg

 

I'd be interested in doing more when you're producing these bits for sale.

Edited by jwealleans

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Justin, there was a major article in a BRILL Annual some years ago called "On the milk" which may help.  i don't have time to look it out now but will happily do so after the weekend.

 

Chris

 

It was in Annual No.4 (apologies for pre-empting you Chris!).  Also the three articles this year in BRILL (March/April/May) on milk traffic on the South Western.

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Hi jwealleans,

 

Thanks I'll have to keep an eye out for that book. I have a rather nice GA drawing from the NRM for a Diagram 333 type which is where I got the information for the underframe from but the rest is a mystery. It's good that some were built for United Dairies. I'll be able to include one in the formation for my model of the Whitland to Kensington.

 

Hi Rod,

 

Thanks for that. I'll have to look into those articles.

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I forgive Rod for pre-empting me and now have the article beside me.  It comprises 18 pages of finest Irwell Press black and white.  No author credit is given, which makes it difficult to apportion blame for erroneous captions!  My hazy memory that it featured more in the way of detail about tanks was clearly at fault.

 

After a good overview of the rise and fall of railborne milk traffic there are sections on traffic flows with emphasis varying according to the information available.  The list of milk carrying vehicles is quite fulsome but very sketchy as respects the LNER and even includes some recent locations where tanks could be found, but not GWS Didcot or the South Devon Railway where one and two respectively may be seen.  Many of the photographs are by R C Riley and some also appeared in his article "Home With The Milk" in Trains Illustrated for March 1959. 

 

Two of the captions need qualification.  There are pics of a four wheel tank and a six wheeled tank both said to be the Southern's 4419 but the 4-wheeler is 4407.  A delightful image of C class 31581 hauling an LMS BG and one tank is said to be leaving Morden South for Kensington. Wrong: it is at Kensington, as are many of the other pics.  This apart, the milk trains illustrated have a wide variety of motive power and formation.

 

I've now got to send Justin a PM ...

 

Chris

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Hi Martyn,

 

The model you have posted the picture of is a GWR O.42. These were Express Dairies tanks and is the same diagram as my model above depicts. I need to change mine as Express Dairies didn't (as far as I'm aware) have any concerns in South Wales, which is my area of interest, and so is unsuitable. It will get rebuilt into a United Dairies GWR O.39 once I've got the etches for the platforms done.

 

Without wishing to be too much of a pedant the number on your model doesn't correspond with an O.42. W2009 was a United Dairies O.44 and is still in existance at Mangapps. There's a picture of it here. They began life as 4 wheel tanks to diagram O.23 but were rebuilt as 6 wheelers and became diagram O.44 in the process. They had different arrangements for the tank strapping brackets, tank fittings and also supports from the O.42s. The O.42s also originally had cooling covers but these were later removed.

 

Numbers for the O.42s were as follows:

Lot 1561 built 9/35 2561-2563

Lot 1607 built 8/37 2593-2594

Lot 1613 built 8/37 2595-2598

Add a W depending on timeframe of course.

 

Always nice to see pictures of milk tank models. 

 

Evening Justin,

 

Oh dear so I suppose this one is also wrongly numbered as well,

 

post-7101-0-86478000-1358287052.jpg

 

Still whats 10 minutes with a glass fibre brush and some new transfers.

 

Martyn.         P.S.   So regarding the lot numbers only 9 to that diagram were ever built ?

Edited by 3 link

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Evening Martyn,

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but yes that one is also wrongly numbered. W2960 was a United Dairies diagram O.51 which had lever brakes and central platforms. There's a picture of W2960 on Paul Bartlett's website though not in use for carrying milk.

 

Milk Tanks tended to be built in very small numbers. 2 or 3 here, 5 or 6 there. The diagram O.36s consisted of one lot of just 3 vehicles.The LMS were not much different with a Diagram 1991 one that also consisted of 3 vehicles. The SR managed one diagram, 3158, with a grand total of 2 vehicles in it's ranks. I'm not entirely sure why there needed to be quite so many different variations and so diagrams. There are times when it's obvious such as when platforms are used or there are twin tanks but sometimes it's difficult at times to tell the difference. I haven't got a clue what the difference between the O.57s and O.60s was but it could have been as little as an inch difference in tank lengths. One size fits all did not apply to milk tanks!!

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Evening Justin,

 

Thanks for all the info it is much appreciated, and I must admit I do like to get things right.

 

So the lots you have listed below were all Express Dairies ?

 

Lot 1561 built 9/35 2561-2563

Lot 1607 built 8/37 2593-2594

Lot 1613 built 8/37 2595-2598

 

Sorry for all the questions, it's nice to talk too someone who knows what they are talking about.

 

ATB,

 

Martyn.

Edited by 3 link

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That's quite ok Martyn.

 

Yes all three of those lots were to diagram O.42 and all were Express Dairies. No other Dairies had milk tanks to that diagram. The diagram O.42s were the only

Dean-Churchward braked vehicles that were built specifically for Express Dairies though they did inherit some O.35s, O.38s and and O.43s from Independant Milk Supplies and West Park Dairy Co. The O.38s were very similar to the O.42s except for a different arrangement of fittings on top of the tank. 

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Hi All,

 

Justin, assuming the C&W guys go the right colours of paint out when they did this one up:

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/S4409/s4409.html

 

http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=1506

 

And there is this beastie too:

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/3030/3030.html

 

http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7062

 

I hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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Hi

 

Quick query, does anyone do the milk tank chassis for the road rail demountable tanks? I believe there are  LMS diecast models that are available from Hattons are for the road tanks themselves

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Hi Castle,

 

Thanks for posting those.I'm very familiar with those two vehicles and that SR milk tank inparticular having spent a cold day in December measuring it up. I think the livery on it is accurate. The Ro-Rail tanks are great but they're a little bit before my period of interest. The captioning for is incorrect though. It certainly isn't an O.58. These were twin tank wagons on the long (21'6" over headstocks) GWR chassis. There's a picture of one here. Paul Bartlett also has a picture of W3030 on his website and list it as an O.49 which is more like it. These were significantly longer than the rest of the milk carrying fleet having underframes nearly 28 feet long. There were other, earlier shorter Ro-Rail tanks based upon standard 6 wheel chassis. Presumably the increase in length corrsponded with an increase in the size of the road trailers.

 

There's also this a Didcot which is of interest:

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/101/101.html

It was built as a drinking water tank but is pretty much the same as a milk tank and the chassis is exactly the same type (20'6" GWR lever braked). Drinking Water tanks were interesting. They were used at outlying stations where there was no reliable drinking water access. As far as I'm aware they had to be returned to Swindon to be replenshed. There were examples at Morton on Lugg and Titley Juction in Herefordshire. So if you see a photo of a single milk tank standing in a siding at a station somewhere it might not be a milk tank! 

 

I must get back to Didcot at some time and measure up those wonderful Pollen Es that are there.

 

Hi Ian,

 

As far as I'm aware there are no kits for the Ro-Rail tank chassis. David Geen did talk about doing a 4mm kit presumably for the early 20'6" Dean Churchward braked examples (O.37) as thes would have used many parts from his GWR milk tank kit but nothing has been forthcomming so far. I think he was a bit disappointed in sales of the LMS kits he did and hasn't done any since. I think a lot of people think of milk tanks as being region specific vehicles (GWR, LMS etc) but certainly post nationalsiation they worked effectively as private owner wagons for whichever dairy owned the tank and got all over the place. The other companies also had their own variations on the Ro-Rail theme.

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Justin,

 

This one just misses the numbering sequence ?

     

ADW 2592 Liverpool Street 14th April 1984

 

post-1161-0-86057700-1358340137.jpg

 

Note still with working DC brakes

 

Later renumbered 041341 and then 041967 and scrapped at Coopers Sheffield Feb 1992

 

Edit -  Found a reference

Diag 039 Built 1937 Lot 1585

Numbers 2587-2592

 

(Edited to add build details)

Edited by DerekEm8
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Hi Derek,

 

A lot of milk tanks seem to have found alternative empolyment. Not looking bad for a vehicle that was 47 years old! I can't imagine there were many DC braked wagons knocking around the network by the mid eighties! Nice view of the platforms. I've just finished CAD drawings for these. We shall see how easy they are to put together, there isn't much to them. 

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I must get back to Didcot at some time and measure up those wonderful Pollen Es that are there.

 

/quote]

 

Hi Justin,

 

No problem for posting - I figured it would be one of the first places you would look! Thanks for pointing out the diagram discrepancy - I must admit that I had missed it too. I guess familiarity breeds contempt sort of... I will pass the information on to the Society Webmaster and he will sort it for us.

 

I have done a version of No. 101 and a very interesting vehicle it makes too. Ironically, the 6 wheel milk tank at Didcot is a rare SR version and not a GWR one - the water tank fills the GWR gap nicely. It is actually owned by the 813 Fund but has found a home out the back of the C&W works at 81E.

 

So you want to measure the Pollens? What are you up to on the 28th July?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67020-rmweb-members-tour-of-didcot/&do=findComment&comment=915713

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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Hi Justin,

 

No problem for posting - I figured it would be one of the first places you would look! Thanks for pointing out the diagram discrepancy - I must admit that I had missed it too. I guess familiarity breeds contempt sort of... I will pass the information on to the Society Webmaster and he will sort it for us.

 

I have done a version of No. 101 and a very interesting vehicle it makes too. Ironically, the 6 wheel milk tank at Didcot is a rare SR version and not a GWR one - the water tank fills the GWR gap nicely. It is actually owned by the 813 Fund but has found a home out the back of the C&W works at 81E.

 

So you want to measure the Pollens? What are you up to on the 28th July?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67020-rmweb-members-tour-of-didcot/&do=findComment&comment=915713

 

All the best,

 

Castle

That looks like a very interesting day! I like the idea of seeing bits of Didcot that you don't usually get to see. I shall have to see what I'm up to. I have a liking for interesting and unusual wagons and the Pollens would make a great model, as would the wonderful 24 wheeled Crocodile L but the Pollens still exist and don't have quite so many rivets! Do you know if there's any plans to refurbish 101 and also the milk tank trailer? 101 always looks a little bit sad when I see it hidden away behind the carriage sheds. I was a little bit suprised to find an SR milk tank at Didcot when I first saw it but it's great that it's there. There are quite a few GWR/WR examples preserved but only a couple of SR ones. It's just a shame an LNER example wasn't preserved as well

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Hi Justin,

 

Yep - I love the bizarre freight carrying stuff too - particularly the outsize loads ones. That Crocodile L was a fearsome beast and there was someone making it on here at on point but it all went quiet. We have the Crocodile F to play with at Didcot and it is currently being used as - you guessed it - a boiler trolley (let nobody say we don't use the collection properly when possible!). It is currently home to the pressure vessels from two very disparate machines - Nos. 1363 & 4079!

 

There are no direct plans to tackle Nos. 101 & 3030 but on the bright side, a small group has taken on the freight stock at Didcot and they have just blitzed through Mink A No. 101720 in less than a year and to a very high standard. There is an Open C being slowly sneaked into the rear of the C&W works at the moment but after that, who knows?

 

I hope you can make it on the 28th.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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That Crocodile L was a fearsome beast and there was someone making it on here at on point but it all went quiet.

 

 

I hope you can make it on the 28th.

 

Perhaps he fell asleep tackling all those rivets and hasn't woken up yet!!!

 

I shall do my best to make it that day, it sounds great. I'm between jobs at the moment and haven't got a clue where I'm going to be in July, work usually takes up weekends as well, but I'll drop you a line a bit closer to the time when I know where I am at. Hopefully they'll still be space, it sounds like it's going to be popular though. It should be! 

 

Going back to the SR milk tank do you know why it was painted in Express Dairies livery? I've come across pictures of some of the other wagons from that batch, 4404-9 diagram 3159, in their four wheel days and they were in use with United Dairies. A seperate reference that has come to light also states this.

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Thanks for a great thread so far Justin.

 

I'm really keen to get some 7mm LNER (Halesworth) tanks from somewhere - I don't suppose you have plans to open your stable to include a larger scale? 3 or 4 confirmed orders if you do!...

 

Also, any info you have on what prototype would have been run out of Halesworth, Suffolk from mid 50s to rail closure would be great!

 

Cheers, Steve

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Hi Steve,

 

 

I found your rail served dairies in Suffolk thread and so that Halesworth was a United Dairies facility. This gives you lots of scope for different diagrams. I’ll post a complete list on here as a reference when it’s done but to give you some idea the following were associated with United Dairies:

 

 

GWR: O.38, O.39, O.44, O.45, O.47, O.51, O.57, O.60

LMS: 1993, 1994, 2173

SR: 3155, 3157, 3159

LNER: 184, 333

 

 

During 1959 United Dairies merged with Cow & Gate and also Aplin & Barrett to form Unigate so from this point the following (other) types

could also be seen:

 

 

GWR: O.55, O.56, O.58, O.63

 

 

These are all 3000 gallon types. United Dairies also had a few 2000 gallon types and Ro-Rail types could also be a possibility until about 1961 when they were discontinued.

 

 

As for Scaling up the etches it would depend on how easy it would be and also how useful it would be. The chassis are designed around the David Geen kit and despite the contents only really replace a dozen parts from it. The rest has to come from somewhere.

post-13847-0-80316400-1358965950_thumb.jpg

 

Detailing parts may be more useful but it depends on how much work is required to make them useable. There may be issues around sizes of holes and also fold lines. The SR/GWR platforms use a lot of 0.31mm wire which when scaled up equates to 0.54mm. Things like this may be an issue? Has anyone got any experience of doing this kind of thing?

post-13847-0-41346600-1358965992_thumb.jpg

 

I’ve got to get all the bits done in 4mm first though before I think about it!

 

 

Justin

 

Edit: link added.

Edited by jjnewitt
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