Pete 75C Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Someone's just passed me some samples of Kato Unitrack N double track concrete sleeper banked curves and the transition (easement) curves that lead into them (282/315mm and 381/414mm). I'm sure there are many posts and differering opinions about Unitrack itself, but does anyone have any experience of using these banked curves? I'm curious because they look surprisingly good to me. I don't normally stick up for sectional track but these may change my mind! Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I use them as part of my test track (a bunch of Unitrack on a door) with my North American stock. There are a few bits of stock that don't like them, but on the whole they work well. They are a bit 'over banked', but it is a better look than everything appearing to lean outwards. Passenger cars and other long stock (autoracks, stack cars) in particular look good through them. Model Railroader used them as part of one of their project layouts: http://mrr.trains.com/sitecore/content/Home/How%20To/Articles/Layout%20Construction/2011/12/Building%20the%20N%20scale%20Salt%20Lake%20Route.aspx?sc_lang=en A nice pic here http://www.katousa.com/images/unitrack/20-2010.jpg Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Thanks Adrian. I did wonder if the angle was a little excessive just by looking at them, but I still think it's a step in the right direction. They may just tempt me to put that old Wickes flush door to good use, but then I'll need stock etc etc... I'll try to resist the temptaion! Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I was playing last night with my new purchases (ConCor autoracks) and discovered that they are not the happiest of stock on even the widest Kato banked curve. Something to do with having a long wheelbase, long coupler arms, and a (very) high centre of gravity. If you aren't smooth with them (or try to push them through the curve) they will topple. However, they are the worst-case stock. 30+ 33' bogie hoppers give no problem through the banked curves behind my 2-8-8-2. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Having threatened to play around with these banked curves, I really am quite smitten by their appearance. Watching the 66 lean into the reverse curves as it snakes its way thru the barren chipboard wasteland is quite addictive. I would not be prepared to superelevate Peco streamline or any other flexi track by shimming, as if you get it wrong, it looks awful, and in N, it looks really awful. I'm impressed. The Unitrack looks better than I thought it would, especially from a normal viewing distance. It is quite plasticky in the close-ups, but nothing some airbrush or aerosol weathering wouldn't greatly improve. I feel the need to build a small N gauge layout on a flush door, with the excuse that "it's not for me, it's for my son". I'm certainly not giving up 4mm, but I have been sorely tempted by the other side. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 OK, so the plan has now been elevated from a flush door to a pair of softwood framed, ply topped 4 x 3s joined by pattern makers dowels. I've made the mistake in the past of creating a single piece so large and monstrously heavy that it has become part of the room and impossible to move. Even a 6 x 2.5 flush door would be impractical to move around and the extra space of 8 x 3 allows a larger radius on the superelevated curves. The station will be mostly hidden at the right hand end "on the curve" with just a carriage length poking out from under a road overbridge.The bay platform line will run through the backscene and terminate on a short stub track, probably operated by a remote shuttle unit. Looking forward to running 5-6 coaches and 10-12 wagons. If it all goes pear-shaped, I'll try to find someone else to blame. Watch this space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 I've had some time recently to start work on what will be a fully scenic N gauge "test track" using the concrete sleepered Kato Unitrack banked curves. I've attached some pics, but things have moved on quite quickly from what you see here and I'm now at the "expanding foam, tunnel mouth and girder bridge" stage. I'll take some more pics and add them in the next day or so. As you can see, a standard flush door is pretty much perfect for a layout of this type, although I still prefer to build the scenery up above track level and also down below if possible - it all adds to the realism. There is no particular plan to this - it's all coming together in a fairly fluid way and will no doubt change. What is certain is an up and down main with a branch diving under the main line and climbing again on the other side. The big down side to Unitrack is the extreme height of the ballast bed, which takes some work to make more realistic. I'm still a committed 4mm modeller, but someone once said "everyone has at least one N gauge layout in them", and this will be mine. This will also be a "quickie" and when it's finished, it will be finished - time to move on. I don't have the space for anything other than "end to end" 4mm, so this is one way of being able to sit back and watch 6 carriage or 12 wagon trains snaking through a landscape without any operator intevention. Lazy, in other words. My Broad Street homage can wait a while - I need to get this out of my system! Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 Forgot to mention, as you can see from the original plan, and the pics above, the branch is now not connected to the main line and dives under it to end in a hidden stub track which will be controlled by an automatic shuttle unit. Also for reasons of space, the dimensions are 6'6" by 3' and the whole layout is one piece. Need to keep an eye on the weight, but this is supposed to be a "quickie", so don't want to get too involved with baseboard alignment etc. The ply has already been cut above the branch and a double track girder bridge installed - pics to follow. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted February 20, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2013 Hi Pete This looks like lots of fun. Apart from the Bardon 66 what other trains will you be running on this layout? cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 Hi Ben. All I own at the moment is the Bardon 66, so I'll probably end up with this on an Intermodal and a Voyager or HST on the Up and Down main, and I quite fancy a Farish 150 on the branch. I'll limit the amount of stock because although they say a layout is never finished, I would like to draw a line under this one quite soon. It's also a good way of practising some scenic techniques without breaking the bank! Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 As promised, some extra pics now the bare board's moved on to the messy stage. Next stage will be to lay the track, test and then colour the scenics. Trying hard not to turn this into the Rocky Mountains, but I dislike flat baseboards and always like to add a little height where possible. The roadway will be lightened and weathered considerably and will also cross the branch line via a barrier crossing. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 With regard to the road, we have an old house with an open fire, and to me, sieved coal ash looks suspiciously like well-worn tarmac. I might see what this looks like. Had an absolute disaster trying to paste a Gaugemaster sky backscene onto the curved hardboard, so ended up using a sky-blue Crown matchpot for a quid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Given my last disastrous attempt at ballasting, This is appealing. Couple of Questions. Do you have a link to where I can get a list of track sections available? Have you done any weathering tests to see how it looks with a bit of muck? I will follow this with interest Rgds Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 . Do you have a link to where I can get a list of track sections available? Start here: http://www.katousa.com/N/unitrack.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 With regard to the road, we have an old house with an open fire, and to me, sieved coal ash looks suspiciously like well-worn tarmac. I might see what this looks like. Had an absolute disaster trying to paste a Gaugemaster sky backscene onto the curved hardboard, so ended up using a sky-blue Crown matchpot for a quid. It really depends on where yo are as to what worn tarmac looks like - particularly if you decide to model North America. The reason is that the gravel base tends to be local stone, which can vary significantly in colour - ever seen pink roads? Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Given my last disastrous attempt at ballasting, This is appealing. Couple of Questions. Do you have a link to where I can get a list of track sections available? Have you done any weathering tests to see how it looks with a bit of muck? I will follow this with interest Rgds Mark I've purchased all the Unitrack I need from fastrack99 on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110866772384?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 Follow the link and then click on seller's other items. No connection other than as a satisfied customer. Everything's in stock and is posted same day, I'm really pleased with the service. From memory, the banked curves are available in 3 different radius, but remember you need the approach curves either end of a superelevated section of track, there's a left hand and right hand section in each pack. The superelevated track is only available as double track with concrete sleepers, ordinary single track sections are available mostly with wooden sleepers. As for weathering, I've sprayed a section using Humbrol dark brown number 29 and I think it looks ok. I'll add more loose ballast to form a shoulder and to disguise the height of the moulded ballast bed on the Unitrack. If I get a chance, I'll post a before and after pic a little later. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 As promised, here is a "before" and "after" shot. Bet you can't tell which is which! I've only been able to use a standard wooden-sleepered section for comparison as I'm not planning to weather the concrete superelevated sections until after they're in place and tested, and I certainly wouldn't want to get any muck in the joiners. If anything, I've overdone it with the spray, but you get the idea - it looks much better and takes away the factory-fresh shiny look. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted February 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2013 I'd be tempted to mask the outer edges of the ballast with a roughly torn edge to the mask, so the original grey shows too (toned down as well, perhaps). Edit : Or not spray right to the edge of the plastic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I've purchased all the Unitrack I need from fastrack99 on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110866772384?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 Follow the link and then click on seller's other items. No connection other than as a satisfied customer. Everything's in stock and is posted same day, I'm really pleased with the service. From memory, the banked curves are available in 3 different radius, but remember you need the approach curves either end of a superelevated section of track, there's a left hand and right hand section in each pack. The superelevated track is only available as double track with concrete sleepers, ordinary single track sections are available mostly with wooden sleepers. As for weathering, I've sprayed a section using Humbrol dark brown number 29 and I think it looks ok. I'll add more loose ballast to form a shoulder and to disguise the height of the moulded ballast bed on the Unitrack. If I get a chance, I'll post a before and after pic a little later. Pete. Cheers, Thats exactly the kind of source you need. So many choices! The weathering also helps take the brightness off the ballast, Nice. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted February 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2013 This is very interesting, does the kato track match any peco track? Obviously bearing in mind the height is different with the built in ballast, but is the basic track compatible? If you were prepared to match heights on hidden sections you could save a bit of money? - as noting from the ebay link the kato track is (relatively) expensive, though possibly not when the timesaving aspect is considered? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I think Kato sell an adaptor to match Kato track to other makes. Kato Unitrack snap track adaptor part number 20-045 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Kato Unitrack is an intriguing product with a following that can take a life of its own, the Kato system makes our European sectional track systems look rather third-rate, a typical Japanese home does not have the space for permanency of a layout so they make track which is easy to assemble/disassemble without damage and deterioration. Warning, once you have acquired a few pieces, you will become hooked and looking for more! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I was playing last night with my new purchases (ConCor autoracks) and discovered that they are not the happiest of stock on even the widest Kato banked curve. Something to do with having a long wheelbase, long coupler arms, and a (very) high centre of gravity. If you aren't smooth with them (or try to push them through the curve) they will topple. However, they are the worst-case stock. 30+ 33' bogie hoppers give no problem through the banked curves behind my 2-8-8-2. Adrian We are up against the laws of physics here, a purpose of the banking or superelevation is to guide the train through the curve with comfort for the passengers and to reduce excessive wear of the railhead. If the low rail shows "mushrooming" wear and the high rail develops a side edge, then the superelevation, cross-level or cant, whatever you wish to call it, is too great for the speed of the rail traffic, and the track may be redesigned and tamped with less cross-level On the West Coast mainline, as a stopgap, the cross level was deliberately revised on certain curves, passengers felt the curves as the train banked through them. The benefit to the Railway, Public Relations, passengers thought their journey times were shorter than before as if an accelerated service had been effected Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 I'm new to Unitrack, being a lifelong 4mm modeller, and this whole test track thing came about as a result of being given some banked curves a month or so ago. Looking at the first picture (top of thread), I think they look exceptionally good. There are problems though. Unitrack is code 80 and I find Peco Code 80 connects fine if you remove the Unitrack plastic joiner. Use your fingers or a light grip with pliers. There is a small blue plastic tool to remove the joiners - and this is supplied with the Unitrack power feeds. As Pandora says, there is a section of Unitrack that simplifies connection to Peco, Fleischmann Piccolo etc but I don't find it neccesary. With regard to the problems, the biggest is the depth of the Unitrack ballast bed. If connecting Unitrack to other track, you'll need to shim the other track to the correct height. Also, if you were to place a standard N gauge platform (ie: Hornby's Lyddle End) alongside Unitrack, your 2mm passengers will need a stepladder to board the train. I've read that most people using Unitrack use cork or thin ply to raise the surrounding trackside. A pain, but not impossible. Alongside plain Unitrack, it's quite easy to add fine loose ballast to disguise the height. Another issue can be the points. There has been a lot said on this forum and others about stock that won't run through without derailing. I believe this only affects the short radius number 4 points. Again, there is a solution, but bearing in mind the expense of Unitrack points, it's something to think about. The built in point motors work beautifully and this goes some way to counterbalance the initial cost. There will always be people who knock sectional track and say anything with built-in ballast is toylike, but I disagree. In 4mm, I'm a big fan of Tillig track which is sectional. Careful weathering helps. There are others that will say Code 80 rail looks massive. Compared to Peco's Code 55, maybe, but again - careful weathering helps. Loose ballasting can look great and is my preferred method in 4mm. but this is 2mm - it can be tricky and some people don't like the mess. At the end of the day, we're not all rivet-counters (I'm certainly not) and I'm prepared to compromise. This little scenic test track of mine was always meant to be a quick build and when it's finished, it's finished - time to move on! My biggest fear is that I usually model urban 4mm (no greenery). There are a lot of hillsides and green fields on this layout and I'm a little concerned they'll look too bright and toylike as I don't have a great deal of scenic landscape experience. Having said that, if I'm going to mess up, I'd rather do it on a quickie door layout. I think that's why I'm calling this a scenic test track... a get out clause if it all goes horribly wrong! More pics to follow soon - the hillsides are now a lurid green (courtesy of a Crown matchpot) ready for some grass... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 With regard to the problems, the biggest is the depth of the Unitrack ballast bed..... The built in point motors work beautifully These two items are related. The depth of the ballast bed is to allow the points to have built-in motors. Kato also has OLE masts (single track) and gantries (double track) if you are so inclined. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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