The FORGOTTEN, Forgotten Underground Stations

[iL Dottore]

... Btw, how about turning the design into a roundy? It would end up deeper, but hidden sharp curves should be shorter than the twin fiddleyards as drawn. Putting the station outside the loop could allow a longer platform or make the layout narrower.Dave

it's very tempting, but should I decide to build either of these two layouts, quick and easy, low cost construction HAS to be the way to go (given my current involvement in 3 layouts) - an approach that would favour Camden Lock (to The Stationmaster's delight I'm sure), but does not exclude a bare bones Royal Docks.

 

iD

 

p.s. after the good experience I've had with BCB, I would not be adverse to a multinational task force approach to either of the designs, should the plans proceed to construction.

[c2c]

You remember the Underground just as I did, F. Remember the lovely warm smell (years before people started to urinate everywhere), the uplights on the old wooden escalators?

The old "Twin Rover" was the best bargain in London.

 

Good luck, Pete.

 

Edited to Twin Rover

 

Blimey! now thats sparked up an old memory, the old wooden esculators..... which always seem to have long groaning creak at times as they carried you along. Warm musty air with a hint of rubber as you turned round the corner in a walkway tunnel to the platform. Do you remember the Bakerloo 1938 stock ......bumpy or what?

 

Nice colour red though!

[unravelled]

I had Clapham North as my local underground station for some years in the 70s, and remember how scary these island platforms are at rush hour.

Re the cross passages above the lines, don't they sometines cut through the top of running tunnels? I'm sure I've walked past a curve topped grille at floor level, with a draught and train noises coming from it. Or are these across adjacent platform tunnels?

 

I'll try to get some photos of the 3d models in store at Acton if any help with the station layouts.

 

Dave

[Dagworth]

I had Clapham North as my local underground station for some years in the 70s, and remember how scary these island platforms are at rush hour.

Re the cross passages above the lines, don't they sometines cut through the top of running tunnels? I'm sure I've walked past a curve topped grille at floor level, with a draught and train noises coming from it. Or are these across adjacent platform tunnels?

 

I'll try to get some photos of the 3d models in store at Acton if any help with the station layouts.

 

Dave

Those are cut throughs of platform tunnels. Actual running tunnels have so little clearance around the train that if you had cut through into them you'd remove a significant part of the train.

 

Andi

[iL Dottore]

I *think* the exit tunnel for Camden Lock needs to be higher above the running tunnels so that as the passage turns it clears the running tunnel....

 

Andi

Sorted...

 

Wood effect represents the baseboard and the tunnel supports. The platform tunnel would only extend about 2/3rds of the way around (delineated by the woof effect structures), allowing the viewer to see both running lines (and also permitting the "hand of god" to be used if needed)

 

F

[iL Dottore]

Undoubtably I am completely bonkers, but I have decided to move Royal Docks from Gedankenspiel to Proof-Of-Concept. To this end I will be investigating whether or not I can successfully scratchbuild LU District/Circle Line F or Q Stock and cut'n'cover retaining walls for the open sections of the layout.

 

To this end, I'll be referring to some card LU kits I am acquiring for dimensions and looks (a bit of a cheat, I know). I'll also be investigating DCC control, not only for propelling the stock, but also for illumination (so that, looking down the tunnel towards the station, the observer will see the driving cab light come on, the directional lights change from red rear to white front, the cab light go off and the carriage internal lights come on [if not already on]).

 

For the F/Q stock, materials will be plastic sheet (40 or 60thou - not sure which would be best yet) black beetle motorised bogie and "bodge" - the new wonder construction material ("gets everything done, today"). Retaining walls will be 40thou with a SEF embossed brick sheet veneer.

 

Pictures, sketches and notes will be posted "as and when..."

 

iD

 

p.s. am looking for a collaborator or two on Royal Docks - The Layout , PM me if you're interested.

[chrisf]

If you are going to run surface stock you may need to rethink your tunnels! It is dangerous to generalise but bored circular tunnels tended to be used by tube gauge stock - that is one reason why tube trains are so small.

 

Chris

[GoingUnderground]

If you are going to run surface stock you may need to rethink your tunnels! It is dangerous to generalise but bored circular tunnels tended to be used by tube gauge stock - that is one reason why tube trains are so small.

 

Chris

 

 

Tube trains are so small for one reason alone - money. You get more tunnel for your money with a small bore - less material to remove, and less material required to line the tunnel which together make for a faster and cheaper build - important if it is a privately funded project, as all but the Victoria Line were, and you need to start seeing it generating income as soon as possible after the start of construction.

 

The shape of the tunnel depends on the medium through which the tunnel is being made, and the depth of the tunnel. If it is a deep tunnel and the material is easy to cut through with a rotary tunnel boring machine, then the final shape will be circular, e.g. the Channel Tunnel (which can take Berne loading gauge stock), and the new London Crossrail tunnels, which have been/will be bored and so are circular in cross section.despite being for full sized rolling stock. Also a circle is the most dimensionally stable shape if the tunnel is at any depth and will be under pressure from every side. The next most dimensionally stable shape is an egg/oval shape, followed by the arch shape used for much of the "cut and cover" London the surface lines, Met and District, were cut and cover and dual track so most of their of their tunnels are not circular. The single tracks between Baker Street and Finchley Road look to be circular or possibly egg shaped.

[iL Dottore]

Chris, the surface stock (F or Q) will run on the Royal Dock layout (see post 1 and post 21), whilst the drawing in post 30 is for Camden Lock, which is tube stock.

 

Royal Dock is subsurface (a branch off the old East London line, so Circle/District line stock), whereas Camden Lock is pure Northern Line tube.

 

iD

[Lord of Narnia]

Good luck if you want to scratch build surface stock!

 

The tough bit will be the clerestory roofs of the older Q stock cars and the flares on the newer Q38 cars!

 

The F stock should not be too difficult to do but it will take time and bad language if my experiences are anything to go by!

 

I buy most of my stock from kits now which is less hassle! Radley Models do Q and F stock and you can even buy card ones now from street level models!

[uax6]

Undoubtably I am completely bonkers, but I have decided to move Royal Docks from Gedankenspiel to Proof-Of-Concept. To this end I will be investigating whether or not I can successfully scratchbuild LU District/Circle Line F or Q Stock and cut'n'cover retaining walls for the open sections of the layout.

 

To this end, I'll be referring to some card LU kits I am acquiring for dimensions and looks (a bit of a cheat, I know). I'll also be investigating DCC control, not only for propelling the stock, but also for illumination (so that, looking down the tunnel towards the station, the observer will see the driving cab light come on, the directional lights change from red rear to white front, the cab light go off and the carriage internal lights come on [if not already on]).

 

For the F/Q stock, materials will be plastic sheet (40 or 60thou - not sure which would be best yet) black beetle motorised bogie and "bodge" - the new wonder construction material ("gets everything done, today"). Retaining walls will be 40thou with a SEF embossed brick sheet veneer.

 

Pictures, sketches and notes will be posted "as and when..."

 

iD

 

p.s. am looking for a collaborator or two on Royal Docks - The Layout , PM me if you're interested.

 

You have two options here, you could use the card kits (If they are the correct scale), shellac both sides and bobs your mothers brother, or if you are going down the plasticard route use 10/20 thou (40-60 only for floor!) and look up Colin Parks excellent EMU construction threads. You will learn from someone who is a master of plasticard building (he has given me tips that really work).

 

If you do start to make them, can you start another thread over in Scratchbuild forum please? I for one would love to see how it goes (and offer tips from my experinces (see my bodgery thread)).

 

Andy G

[iL Dottore]

Good luck if you want to scratch build surface stock!

The tough bit will be the clerestory roofs of the older Q stock cars and the flares on the newer Q38 cars!!

I'm fairly confident about the clerestorys roofs, but NOT about building flared sides - hence my choice of (preferably) F or older Q stock. Having scratchbuilt a GWR Siphon and a few buildings, I think that I should be able to build most anything box like, clerestory roof or plain..

 

You have two options here, you could use the card kits (If they are the correct scale), shellac both sides and bobs your mothers brother, or if you are going down the plasticard route use 10/20 thou (40-60 only for floor!) and look up Colin Parks excellent EMU construction threads. You will learn from someone who is a master of plasticard building (he has given me tips that really work).

 

If you do start to make them, can you start another thread over in Scratchbuild forum please? I for one would love to see how it goes (and offer tips from my experinces (see my bodgery thread)).

 

Andy G

Apart from the fact that I wouldn't know where to start looking to find shellac here in CH, plastic - not card - is my preferred medium, so I'll don my hair shirt and scratchbuild. Thanks for the tip about Colin's thread - I am always looking for good advice. And, yes, I will post on the scratchbuilder's forum.

 

iD

[shortliner]

Flavio, away back in I think "Scale Trains" there was a model tube diorama - Would it help if I went on a hunt?

[Nimbus]

 

Your comments Andi have, however, shown that the superficially simpler design of Camden Lock is actually full of pit falls; you can hide a lot of bodging in the darkened tunnels of Royal Docks, but the layout of Camden Lock needs to be quite accurate to get the right "feel" across.

iD

 

Thus starts the journey to finescale madness  ?

 

The Nim

 

 

 

[iL Dottore]

Flavio, away back in I think "Scale Trains" there was a model tube diorama - Would it help if I went on a hunt?

That would be very helpful, thanks.

 

Although Royal Docks is subsurface, it will be very useful to see what and how other layouts/dioramas have been made

 

F

[Roy P]

Very interesting topic. I have for a while now been trying to find a way to incorporate a "widened lines" flavour onto part of a larger layout and in fact

..... (using an image grabbed off the internet) ......

the original images were drawn up by astock5000 of the District Dave forum when we were exploring novel methods of constructing the older types of surface stock. This project is currently on the back burner but seeing others' thoughts on the subject will no doubt turn up the heat.

 

Another of astock5000s drawings just for the fun of it.

RP

[iL Dottore]

...the original images were drawn up by astock5000 of the District Dave forum when we were exploring novel methods of constructing the older types of surface stock. This project is currently on the back burner but seeing others' thoughts on the subject will no doubt turn up the heat....

I hope astock5000 will forgive me for having borrowed the images to illustrate the effect I want to achieve.

 

RP, you and astock5000 may want to keep an eye on this thread. I have already been contacted by Unravelled (Dave) and he and I are exploring creating a laser cut Perspex box to which thin plastic card sides are glued in order to create the older slab sided stock. We are currently kicking some ideas around. Sketches, machinations, PoC structures will be posted here in due course.

 

iD

[Roy P]

Thank you,

astock5000 is happy that they are of some use to someone.

You seem to have also arrived at similar conclusion regarding what I described as a novel construction method.

In our case it involved clear acrylic sheet bent around wooden formers and then covered in pre-coloured thin plastic sides, roofs and ends.

The original drawings were printed to approximate scale to test the idea. Laser cutting wasn't on the radar at the time.

We will certainly watch this thread with renewed interest.

astock5000 isn't a member of this forum but I can add his best wishes to my own regarding your project.

RP

[Oldddudders]

I hope astock5000 will forgive me for having borrowed the images to illustrate the effect I want to achieve.

 

RP, you and astock5000 may want to keep an eye on this thread. I have already been contacted by Unravelled (Dave) and he and I are exploring creating a laser cut Perspex box to which thin plastic card sides are glued in order to create the older slab sided stock. We are currently kicking some ideas around. Sketches, machinations, PoC structures will be posted here in due course.

 

iD

Don't these vehicles have a significant outwards flare at the bottom of the bodyside?

[GoingUnderground]

Or you could just try to find the original Hamblings 4mm litho papers of COP Stock. I have seen O gauge models made from scaled up versions of the Hamblings litho papers glued to profiled blocks of wood. They looked very good.

[Roy P]

Don't these vehicles have a significant outwards flare at the bottom of the bodyside?

Indeed they do! That's where the thin plastic sides come to play.

They main structure would be a clear box. a ridge is fixed to the lower edge of the body side and the overlay produces the flare.

The overlay being secured at the lower edge and around the "windows"

RP

[iL Dottore]

Don't these vehicles have a significant outwards flare at the bottom of the bodyside?

From what I've seen in the photos I've collected so far (about 30 pr so) I think that it would depend upon the vehicle. "Q Stock" refers to various types of carriages, some with a flared body side, others without (http://forum.mtimag.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=836&sid=75303352f40337eab01d7c45b6f6bd5c this forum has a great photo showing a rake of Q stock with mixed side profiles, some seemingly slab sided, others flared) these were built 1920s up to the 1930s (if memory serves me correctly) I may, however, "wimp out" and build F stock which is very much slab sided - as far as I can ascertain from the half dozen or so photos I have. If I build Q stock it will be the slab sided version, as shown here http://tokyorailwaylabyrinth.blogspot.ch/2011/06/steam-underground-class-number-23.html which looks about as straight sided as you can get.

 

F

[LULFAN]

Or you could just try to find the original Hamblings 4mm litho papers of COP Stock. I have seen O gauge models made from scaled up versions of the Hamblings litho papers glued to profiled blocks of wood. They looked very good.

Hi

 

The old litho papers are shown at the bottom of this page

 

http://www.freestonemodel.co.uk/page18.htm

 

So they  maybe will be on sale again

[Lord of Narnia]

Be careful, F stock was not flat sided, it had a bend at the waste line so it remained within the loading gauge of the district. They were the widest trains on the network when built. The profile was very similar to the A60/62 stock that replaced it.

[iL Dottore]

Be careful, F stock was not flat sided, it had a bend at the waste line so it remained within the loading gauge of the district.....

Do you have any photo references that show the bend in the waistline? All the photos I've seen (including the photo of the example at the LT museum) seems to show F stock with completely straight sides (I'm thinking of the District Line stock with the oval "porthole" drivers cab windows). Could the straight sides be an artefact of photography (or, like the Q stock, are there different carriage body sides all going by the title F Stock?).

 

iD