highpeak Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 ame='shortliner' date='05 January 2010 - 17:57 ' timestamp='1262714253' post='61584'] I know all about collectors...... this one though must have been a hoarder, a different form of the species of Railway Modeller, one who buys and never does anything but barely start the kit, or nothing at all.... at least some turn up on Ebay! stephen. About thirty years ago I picked up a number of kits at a hobby shop that was conducting an estate sale. They were very inexpensive, a couple of LaBelle kits cost me something like $3 apiece as did a Campbell's covered bridge. They still sit there, unmolested. Seemed like a good idea at the time... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 About thirty years ago I picked up a number of kits at a hobby shop that was conducting an estate sale. They were very inexpensive, a couple of LaBelle kits cost me something like $3 apiece as did a Campbell's covered bridge. They still sit there, unmolested. Seemed like a good idea at the time... I'll send you the $6.00......monopoly money, of course......I suppose the postage will be rather expensive to make up for the storage!!! Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 The Athearn chassis is off the rolling road, and test run on the test track, haulage is very good, and the performance should be shown to the current US suppliers and their Chinese makers. It crawls at about a foot in 30 secs, with a scale top speed of about 50MPH, and in almost complete silence, no jerks, judders, very smooth indeed. I have added a Kadee knuckle coupling to one end and it hauls 10lbs test weight on a pair of trucks on the flat with ease. Cleaning up the Varney die cast body tonight, and sorting handrails etc., they are too simple on the Varney ones, working from prototype shots and net references etc., for the extra fine details. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigZ Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I believe that the (deduced) formula for DGLE was a gallon of green and a tank car load of black. Too much green. It was more like 2 tablespoons' worth... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Too much green. It was more like 2 tablespoons' worth... Mumble, mumble,... black!... mumble, mumble,..... black will do......mumble mumble.....Hmm.............!! Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigZ Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Very good...nice clean model. I'd recommend changing out the brass wheels for nickle silver or the sintered iron though...brass wheels and stalling locomotives ugh. DGLE engines look black until they're next to another truly black engine. Then they're green. Not very green, but they're green. Period colour photos of PRR engines next to NYC engines show the green clearly. And do you have the bronze gold PENNSYLVANIA decals? If not let me know... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 I think I have some Pennsylvania transfer types stored away, but I will check. US transfer have never been easy to source in the UK. That black colour difference would really show up in bright direct sunlight lighting, the copper oxide makes the surface more reflective, that's where the green look comes from, polarisers on cameras alter it. Not really too bothered with the Athearn brass wheels, I used to cure trouble with a soak in well used photographic fixer, it gives it a eutectic coat of purest silver, but it does not work with a digital camera........I might fit turned nickel tyres on to the old centres, but with an HF track cleaner in use, brass wheels work fine anyway. On reflection I have some stainless steel in the right bar size, so may use that instead. Many thanks for the help and references, that Catalogue Site is incredible resource for older makes. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigZ Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Please, tell me more about the fixer dip...clean the wheels first then soak for how long? This could make me start processing my own film again as I have some Bowser locomotives with brass wheels in the tender bogies... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 Sorry about the slow reply with the RM web down, Yes any fully used exhausted fixer contained pure silver in solution, and the wheels just have to be clean for it too work in a few moments. As soon a layer is on it slows or stops, leaving a thin protective pure silver layer. Paper fixer was best, and you can use silver nitrate chemical to duplicate the process, and add electro plating to further the finish. The plating wears off of course, but could be re- done in a few minutes. How practical is up to you, I would say proper electro plating would be best, it was just the silvering was free from the exhausted fixer! The whole method was based on Clockmaking, where such solutions are used to "silver" clock faces, and knowledge that silver recovery was used for fixer, by passing through wire wool to gather the silver, experiment showed brass etc took the silvering just as well. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 Slight issue with the Athearn motor, it has an old known trouble, which has got worse on testing it out, in that the frame holding the bearings has a split in it. This was common on these, often going unnoticed, but it allows the whole armature to get out of line with the magnet and eventually the armature fouls the magnet. The cure I worked out for my friend in the late 1960's, a collar around the bearing mount, no glue will touch the nylon, but the collar is made tight and then the bearing is replaced which locks it solid. The same applies to one of the universal joint spiders, which has a split as well, so doing both before it gets worse. At worse it wil need duplicate spiders in brass made to fit. The universals and gearboxes are fully working. Sheer old age has got at the nylon plastic, but at least it all curable. Whilst it's out, I am scimming and balancing the motor armature as well. The Varney body work is in 100% condition, and has been cleaned and is being detailed with the original parts plus new detailing, shots coming of the work. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 various shots of progress, more after motor fixed today Split housing Armature Cleaned body Cleaned body Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 There are replacement motor kits available for various frame designs, offering a can motor and associated parts for mounting that. I'll stick with the original as it ran well before the split opened up. It happened on older ones before, and repairs always worked. I think the mouldings had flaws, and they break at the same points. The design is all right, it is silent and smooth. But I will improve it a bit with a scim and balance the armature before re-building. The spiders can be pinned to the shafts to stop slip etc. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted January 9, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2010 The instruction sheets may have solved a problem for me. I have an old FA diesel and the mechanism is much like the Varney one, especially the plates for mounting it to the body. Unfortunately, mine is now showing zamac/mazac problems -- splitting visible on the truck castings and now on the end of the body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 9, 2010 Author Share Posted January 9, 2010 If Mazak rot has set in on Zinc alloy, and thankfully there is no trace on this Varney, there is no cure, the lead contamination causes a failure in the metal structure, the lead oxide occupies more space than the zinc can stand and as it expands the metal breaks up. Factories in the past were not so aware of the problem and lead scrap was added to some melts of the die casting metal, notably Hornby(Binns Road), and Varney, mainly in the days when both lead and zinc where in production at the same time. Tin alloy is expensive and is in solder etc., and it was tempting to simply add scrap tin and lead products to the melt. Zinc is cheap, and it was easy to increase the amount, and this helped with the lead oxidising. With enough aluminium and copper in the mix the lead does not cause a problem, within reason. High prurity zinc was the basis of the process and was introduced before the war, the contamination came afterwards. Some bodies and parts were bought in from sub contractors and often these are fine, as they were specialist zinc/aluminium/magnesium only casters. Brass does not suffer so much, but can have flaws, but rarely as bad as Mazak. The Magnesium added to Mazak can also turn to powder in some makes, Cox had this trouble in the 1970's with castings for slot cars, too much magnesium was added to save weight. (Zamac, Zamak, Mazak, are all similar magnesium zinc aluminium alloys, and were/are trade names). Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 11, 2010 Author Share Posted January 11, 2010 Repair to the nylon end plate of the Athearn Motor, which had a split, with a turned brass ring machined to a tight fit to close the split, then put on with loctite, and then the bearing forced into the hole which expands the plastic to a very tight fit in the ring, it should now remain solid. Same needs to be done for the spider of the universal joint on both ends to make sure they will grip the shafts. Some new spacer washers are needed to control the end play of the armature, which is too excessive at the moment, Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 12, 2010 Author Share Posted January 12, 2010 The now fully repaired 5 pole Motor, and the Athearn chassis all cleaned up, flash removed, all seams removed and the whole outline slimmed a bit to ease fitting into the Varney shell, as it was a very tight fit, and could not even be painted, it was so tight! The spiders, the star shaped universal joint drivers have been pinned to the shaft, they both had splits, but could not have collars added, as the collar would foul the universal joint cup. This means the split is still there, but with the pin it will take the drive all right. If it fails then brass spiders will have to be made. Body details next, trying to find way to flush glaze the cab, very complex with a solid assembled cab. It may need moulds made to vacuum form some in poly glaze. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Peters Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Very nice workmanship. Looks like it's going to be a nnice unit when you have finished it, wish I had 1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 19, 2010 Author Share Posted January 19, 2010 Discussion with some NMRA friends has shown this body kit and chassis is far from common, even in the States, with the body dating from the early 1950's. Quite unusual for the body and chassis to turn up here in the UK. Using the Athearn chassis was not that common as Varney's own chassis was quite good,(I have one in an EMD unit), and the main advantage is the more accurate bogie side frames, although the Varney could take Kemtron Lost wax alternatives. It also appears that Kemtron marketed lost wax frames for the Athearn as well, complete with the working outside,(but unsprung), brass cast sideframes. I am trying to sort out the correct handrails arrangement, as the Varney is not like most in surviving shots, or the prototype photographs. It is simply the shape, the fittings are the same. The windows are a nightmare for flush fitting, so I have traced out the outline, and will etch a set of brass plates to make a mould to vacuum form some glazing. Apart from this the only way is to have set back glazing, which looks a bit odd on such a cab. The chassis is all repaired, and tested, and running well, quiet and smooth. The rubber mounted motor helps a lot, no vibrations at all. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 Well....... the old story was that you patiently waited for a London Bus for years and then they all come at once.....another Varney Yard Switcher body has turned up on Ebay UK, and bought for 99 pence.... I had not seen one for many years, but they seem to be coming out of the woodwork now. There was also a Varney motor and truck on Ebay US, but with postage it was a bit too steep, and I have found an Athearn un-powered chassis which can donate the truck sides to produce a chassis from scratch. As I had traced out all the details of the Lindsay Transmission for the switcher, the plan for the second one is a duplicate of the Lindsay drive, all equalised wheels, all wheel drive and pickup, with a 7 pole motor and worm drive gearboxes with twin flywheels. Lindsay made their own body for the switcher transmission, in brass and copper, but also sold them for the die cast Varney version as well. Lindsay parts ended up owned by Kemtron, after his death. The design dates from 1947/8, and was, and still is, very advanced indeed. I am doing a version not shown in the Lindsay catalogue, with ball bearing races on each end of the transmission tubes. This was offered about 1950, later than the catalogue I have. Detailing the other body at present, shots soon, I need some finer brass wire to finish the handrails set. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoRS1 Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 I just put a powered truck into my Alco RS-1 it was custom built by North West short line out of Montana. NWSL This one powerful motor, it awesome, how it all contained in the truck (bogie), it made my train a great runner, I want to do it with all my trains. I will be posting pictures and a video review of the truck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 The re-draw in colour shows the Lindsay bogie design a bit clearer, and the rather hidden feature of the design is that it is equalised, with one of the gearboxes able to rotate on the shaft around the armature tube. The outer frames do not bear weight, they simply sit on the rounded axle ends, with a retaining bolster strap. The rounded ends are too allow the swivelling equalisation movement. In the drawing it's the gearbox on the right hand end that is able to move. The left hand tube and bearing, plus the gearbox, is solid to the main motor casing, on the right hand side the tube is solid, but the gearbox is loose on the tube and able to move a few degrees around the tube, allowing the wheels to firmly track over any bumps and twists in the track work. There is a slot with a securing screw that retains the gearbox at the chosen centre distance, as it is adjustable, but allows it to swing. I am setting up the lathe and milling machine to make some sample bits, as the design is so usful I will make some spares. The original was both die cast and brass, but mine will be brass only, with ballraces on the shaft ends instead of oilite bearings. The other problem is the armature, I might have to make one or modify an existing one with a new longer shaft. Other than that I may be able to find a short motor and replace the shaft. Stephen. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 A sudden re-think, the left hand end must be the loose gearbox as the right hand has the locking screw, now I see how Robert Lindsay arranged the design! the right hand on sit on the cast lug under the tube to align it properly. At first I could not see what the lug was for if it swivelled........I am beginning to wonder whether to get the parts finished as masters and get some lost wax copies cast in brass........ Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davknigh Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Here's a shot of an NW2 in its native habitat, Chatham Street shops, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Taken IIRC in the mid '70s Cheers, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoRS1 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 In the drawing it's the gearbox on the right hand end that is able to move. The left hand tube and bearing, plus the gearbox, is solid to the main motor casing, on the right hand side the tube is solid, but the gearbox is loose on the tube and able to move a few degrees around the tube, allowing the wheels to firmly track over any bumps and twists in the track work. There is a slot with a securing screw that retains the gearbox at the chosen centre distance, as it is adjustable, but allows it to swing. I am setting up the lathe and milling machine to make some sample bits, as the design is so usful I will make some spares. The original was both die cast and brass, but mine will be brass only, with ballraces on the shaft ends instead of oilite bearings. The other problem is the armature, I might have to make one or modify an existing one with a new longer shaft. Other than that I may be able to find a short motor and replace the shaft. Stephen. Stephen. That seems quite an undertaking, I do not process the patients to do such work, I take my hat of and stand in awe. There are other solutions, their is no longer a need to run a gear from the truck out. why not just use a powered truck, leave the other truck a dummy, just use it for extra power pickup. here is my alco RS-1 as you can see, how little room is taken by the powered trucks. these are not that expensive, I did this for this brass loco. I paid $84 for the powered truck. it freed up all that room so I could fit a mega bass speaker. I will post a video tomorrow, so you can see how powerful this little motor is, it out pulls all my other locos. My link Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 One trouble with US source parts is the plain practical fact dollars equal poinds in day to day real pricing, and postage from the States is very high, many times the Hong Kong rate for instance. I have had many NWSL parts from importers over the years, very good quality, but to keep costs to a bare minimum I build as much as possible at home myself. This second chassis will need gears and I'll use Ultrascale gear sets, top quality and not too expensive, the rest from scratch, mainly brass scrap. I had seen Lindsay units before, but they are about as rare as hen's teeth in the UK. I have Varney super Pacific with the Lindsay conversion, and that is superb qualty engineering. Now with the outline drawing I can reproduce the design myself. Back to the Athearn chassis version for now... Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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