Steam Era Rail/Road Crossing Gates questions.

[sn]

Two questions really. Firstly on an GWR branch line would you ever have a situation where a single track railway crossed a very minor B road (itself single track because it is so minor) but was provided with gates and a crossing cottage, or would this situation always justify only an  unguarded crossing?

Also, where a single line crossed  a normal A road, would you always just have two gates or was there any situation where four half size gates were used?

[Black Sheep]

I can't answer for the GWR specifically.

 

The East Lancs Railway as it passes through Ramsbottom has always, I am lead to believe, had four half sized gates.

 

The crossing is on one of the main roads into the small town and is just off the end of the platforms and controlled from the adjacent signal box.

 

I live nearby if you wanted photos, although google street view would offer a fair number of photos

 

 

I think, just as an assumption, an unguarded crossing would perhaps depend on the volume and type of traffic, low speed freight is less dangerous than high speed express although I have little prototype knowledge to back that up.

[Poor Old Bruce]

I would suggest that ungated crossings on single track lines were only permitted on lines built under the conditions laid down for 'Light' railways. I would imagine that most GWR branches were built before light railways were defined so that gates would be mandatory.

[sn]

y

I can't answer for the GWR specifically.

The East Lancs Railway as it passes through Ramsbottom has always, I am lead to believe, had four half sized gates.

The crossing is on one of the main roads into the small town and is just off the end of the platforms and controlled from the adjacent signal box.

I live nearby if you wanted photos, although google street view would offer a fair number of photos

 

 

 

thanks but I was thinking of single lines

[TheSignalEngineer]

Crossings were generally gated, the configuration depending on the width of the road, width of the railway and angle of the crossing.

[stadman]

Whilst not GWR, the Southern Branch to Sidmouth has a gated crossings near Ottery ST Mary. Minor road with keepers cottage.

One is well preserved with the original gates still in situ.

[Armchair Modeller]

All public roads had gated level crossings with a crossing keeper. The GWR would be no different to any other railway, as this was a legal obligation. Unattended public crossings might be for things like public footpaths and bridleways with no regular vehicular traffic - or crossings on or to private land, generally called occupation crossings.

 

On occupation crossings the gates would open away from the railway, rather than across it. They would be set back further from the railway than normal crossing gates too.

 

Tramways and railways authorised under the Light Railways Act were generally exempt from this obligation.

[simon hudson]

Not wanting to hijack the thread. Maybe a daft couple of questions on a 4 gated crossing. A) would all 4 gates be of equal size B) Would the center closing points ne on the center of tje P/Way or in the center of the roadway. Obviously if it was a perfect square I would have thought so. Reason I ask I wish to install a crossing and it has puzzled me

[Black Sheep]

Not wanting to hijack the thread. Maybe a daft couple of questions on a 4 gated crossing. A) would all 4 gates be of equal size B) Would the center closing points ne on the center of tje P/Way or in the center of the roadway. Obviously if it was a perfect square I would have thought so. Reason I ask I wish to install a crossing and it has puzzled me

 

Ramsbottom has 4 equal size gates over 2 lines and has locking points that raise out of the road, pretty much where the white centre line has, the locking points when allowing road traffic are set back a bit from the roadway where the kerb might be on a normal stretch of road. There is a foot crossing the other side of the gate.

[micknich2003]

Gate length etc depends on the width and angle of the crossing. A standard all square double track crossing is approx 28 feet, and therefore each gate would be 14ft in length, skew the road or widen the railway then all sorts of permatations are possible. The right-hand gate in this picture is 14ft. Mick.

[Siberian Snooper]

All the crossings on the cornish side of the gunnislake branch are ungated.The line having been built on a steep gradient with tight curves the line speed is 20mph or less.

 

SS

[Kris]

Even the most minor crossings on the GWR Kingsbridge branch were gated.

[Arpster]

Not Great Western, but Thorneyburn on the Border Counties line (about four trains a day I think!) had a level crossing over a very minor road which was gated: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/t/thorneyburn/index.shtml

 

Arp

[Thos]

The Railway Company would do a cost-benefit analysis and if it was cheaper they would build a bridge.  A narrow, lightly-used road wouldn't need much of a bridge.

[The Stationmaster]

Oh dear - tended to drift from the OP somewhat haven't we (well it happens) - so to reiterate some key points (some of which have been made above)

 

1. Gated level crossings were a legal requirement (from very early times) on running lines including branches although exceptions were made on 'Light railways' (of which the GWR had very few).

 

2. The normal way of working such crossings - unless they were at a station or adjacent to a signalbox for other reasons - was to provide a Crossing Keeper, usually with a cottage, and a small lever frame (sometimes covered, sometimes not) to operate the gate locks and distant signals.  Stop signals were not always provided at such crossing - the red targets on the gates were in any case legally sufficient but semaphores might be provided for siting or operational reasons.

 

3. The distant signals for such crossings were invariably of the worked variety and were usually the only worked distants to be found on GWR single lines (i.e. they were not fixed at caution).

 

4.  Many Crossing Keepers were women, their family of course living in the cottage and their husband also employed locally on the railway.

 

5. The gates were required to fully fence the railway (i.e. to close if off from the road when closed across the road) - see the comments above by Signal Engineer.  On single lines on the GWR I think single gates were probably the most common but some had double gates depending on the width of the road.  Similar arrangements of course applied where lines were crossed by A roads and also 'unclassified' roads - the definition was basically a crossing of a public highway.

 

6. Modern UK level crossing arrangements are very different due to automation and other changes but unprotected ('open') level crossings are still a comparative rarity on public highways on standard gauge railways and only exist where line speeds are very low.

[Ozexpatriate]

2. The normal way of working such crossings - was to provide a Crossing Keeper, usually with a cottage.

 

4.  Many Crossing Keepers were women, their family of course living in the cottage and their husband also employed locally on the railway.

Presumably the housing arrangement was very hierarchical.

 

A similar set arrangement existed in Queensland, even into the second half of the 20th century. Crossing keepers (usually female) had a cottage at the crossing. Small stations (not involved with the movement of trains) had a station mistress who was assigned a small house. Larger stations, particularly those at the end of a block with a goods siding, were assigned a station master with a larger house.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Whilst not GWR, the Southern Branch to Sidmouth has a gated crossings near Ottery ST Mary. Minor road with keepers cottage.

One is well preserved with the original gates still in situ.

A pair on Canaan Way just outside Ottery St Mary (north west of the village)

 

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ottery+st+mary&hl=en&ll=50.757498,-3.287852&spn=0.001139,0.00327&sll=50.837418,-0.10619&sspn=0.144616,0.41851&t=h&hnear=Ottery+St+Mary,+Devon,+United+Kingdom&z=19&layer=c&cbll=50.75758,-3.287875&panoid=cFyFVFWwWvEy1TSRbl5Btw&cbp=12,160.86,,2,8.05

 

Gateposts at Gosford Road crossing (About a mile north of Canaan Way crossing)

 

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ottery+st+mary&hl=en&ll=50.765876,-3.275781&spn=0.000569,0.001635&sll=50.837418,-0.10619&sspn=0.144616,0.41851&t=h&hnear=Ottery+St+Mary,+Devon,+United+Kingdom&z=20&layer=c&cbll=50.765881,-3.27593&panoid=1Srhhhk9hujya-b8aTQ9Gg&cbp=12,84.36,,0,15.65

 

And some still in use at Plumpton near Lewes. These have been given a Grade 2 Listing, which is apparently causing a headache at Network Rail.

 

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=plumpton&hl=en&ll=50.928402,-0.05922&spn=0.001128,0.00327&sll=50.837418,-0.10619&sspn=0.138763,0.41851&t=h&hnear=Plumpton,+East+Sussex,+United+Kingdom&z=19&layer=c&cbll=50.928425,-0.05922&panoid=LryVepOVnmtF2oqzJZOCrw&cbp=12,153.55,,1,0

[Bruciethefish]

As regards size of gates, there is no requirement for the road & railway to be the same width, so in some circumstances gates could overlap in either open or closed configuration,(not both) & would need to be moved in the correct sequence to avoid clashing. 

Very wide track formations could even have pairs of gates between running lines in order to close off the railway when open to road traffic.

[The Stationmaster]

Presumably the housing arrangement was very hierarchical.

 

A similar set arrangement existed in Queensland, even into the second half of the 20th century. Crossing keepers (usually female) had a cottage at the crossing. Small stations (not involved with the movement of trains) had a station mistress who was assigned a small house. Larger stations, particularly those at the end of a block with a goods siding, were assigned a station master with a larger house.

Only 'sort of' - Stationmasters' houses were to a fairly standard design although there could well have been variants (I'm talking about those built as completely separate buildings) and they do seem to have come in more than one size but that might be as much down to site constraints as 'hierarchy'.

 

Crossing cottages were - from those I have seen - again to a fairly standard sort of design but were not the same as the Stationmasters' houses although part of this was clearly due to the need to fit smaller sites immediately next to the railway.  Examples of both types of building can still be found of course.  

 

Incidentally some crossings didn't have cottages in which case a hut would be provided for the Crossing Keeper.

[stadman]

The Canaan way was the one I had in mind with regard to best preservation, almost worthy of photographing and measuring. Drove over the Gosford road Xing this morning.

Also you can see where the line crossed the main road at Ottery SM itself.

Kev S

www.exemrs.co.uk

A pair on Canaan Way just outside Ottery St Mary (north west of the village)

 

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ottery+st+mary&hl=en&ll=50.757498,-3.287852&spn=0.001139,0.00327&sll=50.837418,-0.10619&sspn=0.144616,0.41851&t=h&hnear=Ottery+St+Mary,+Devon,+United+Kingdom&z=19&layer=c&cbll=50.75758,-3.287875&panoid=cFyFVFWwWvEy1TSRbl5Btw&cbp=12,160.86,,2,8.05

 

Gateposts at Gosford Road crossing (About a mile north of Canaan Way crossing)

 

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ottery+st+mary&hl=en&ll=50.765876,-3.275781&spn=0.000569,0.001635&sll=50.837418,-0.10619&sspn=0.144616,0.41851&t=h&hnear=Ottery+St+Mary,+Devon,+United+Kingdom&z=20&layer=c&cbll=50.765881,-3.27593&panoid=1Srhhhk9hujya-b8aTQ9Gg&cbp=12,84.36,,0,15.65

 

And some still in use at Plumpton near Lewes. These have been given a Grade 2 Listing, which is apparently causing a headache at Network Rail.

 

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=plumpton&hl=en&ll=50.928402,-0.05922&spn=0.001128,0.00327&sll=50.837418,-0.10619&sspn=0.138763,0.41851&t=h&hnear=Plumpton,+East+Sussex,+United+Kingdom&z=19&layer=c&cbll=50.928425,-0.05922&panoid=LryVepOVnmtF2oqzJZOCrw&cbp=12,153.55,,1,0

[The Evil Bus Driver]

The Canaan way was the one I had in mind with regard to best preservation, almost worthy of photographing and measuring. Drove over the Gosford road Xing this morning.

Also you can see where the line crossed the main road at Ottery SM itself.

Kev S

www.exemrs.co.uk

Yeah the station building is a youth club. I might have to make a short excursion when i go to see my Dad, who lives in Paignton.

[stadman]

Didn't know what the building was, just presumed to be a private house.

Thanks for the info.

If you're passing and want someone on the end of a tape, PM me, if i'm available can meet there.

Yeah the station building is a youth club. I might have to make a short excursion when i go to see my Dad, who lives in Paignton.