British Industrial Sand sidings - Holmethorpe, Redhill

[Pete 75C]

Does anyone have a definitive date for the closure to rail traffic of BIS Holmethorpe sidings? Below is a link to a Geograph photo dated 1990 which states that "little or no sand traffic was handled". I'm sure that there is now no trace of the sidings but I remember there was an occasional Norwood diagram which took us to Holmethorpe with a Crompton around 1985-1986. Due to the torturous nature of the curve and incline back up to the main line, we used to have to bring loaded wagons up in two "parts" and reassemble them into a single train at Redhill. Possibly one of the shortest ever trip workings (less than 2 miles, I think). John Oxlade has a similar thread asking for info on the "other" side of the bridge, but I'm conversely more interested in the exchange sidings.

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1619588

 

If anyone has a link to a photo showing a Crompton at Holmethorpe, I'd be delighted to see it (I don't remember ever going to Holmethorpe with an ED and I'm pretty sure anything bigger would not have been able to negotiate the descent from the main line or the curve into the sidings). Pete.

 

Edit: Just Googled and sure enough, the sidings are now buried under a housing development. Surprise.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Pete 75C

[roundhouse]

I will take some photos in the next few days of the current situation of the sidings. They are now car parking for industrial units. The lines the East side of the Quarry lines are now under housing.

 

There is a tiny bit of track left on the incline from the level crossing p to the running lines but the turnout was removed some years go.

 

Ian

[Pete 75C]

Ian - that would be terrific - I thought it had all been lost under development. I've managed to get a few images thru Flickr and Geograph including the connection to the main line, but nothing recent. I used to be a local lad up until the mid 90s and Holmethorpe is one of those places that holds personal memories as well as modelling potential. Many thanks, Pete.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Pete_S

[roundhouse]

We moved to Redhill in the mid 90's and I'd visit Holmethorpe in the early 90's to photo the sidings and shunters but the track was rusty so hadn't been used for some time.

 

We get our cars serviced near the site of the sidings so should be going there Tuesday or Wednesday evening to collect one of them. Will have the camera with me.

 

Ian

Edited May 4, 2013 by roundhouse

[Pete 75C]

As an 18yr old secondman, unfortunately after operating the road gates at the entrance to the exchange sidings, my only interest was to get back up in the cab and finish reading the paper. I wish I'd have the foresight to carry a camera with me in the 80s - I know some railwaymen did and they were quite often mocked for it. Norwood and Redhill crews went to some interesting places, some now long gone. It must be a middle age thing that I now have an interest in some of the mundane things I used to do and some of the places I used to visit back then! Pete.

[Pete 75C]

This is how I remember Holmethorpe circa mid 80s. Entirely from memory and no doubt quite wrong in some respects. If anyone with local knowledge can point out any mistakes, I'd be grateful. For example, I'm not entirely sure where the loco shed was for the industrial shunters. Pete.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2013 by Pete_S

[Earlswood Nob]

Evenin' all

I can remember the loco shed, it was on the siding furthest away from the road under the two arches, which looks like the single ended siding on the diagram. There was a loco called GERVASE stabled there which used to bank trains up the incline to the main line. This probably ceased when the changeover to diesel happened. I can remember them trying a Z class

0-8-0T on working the sand trains from Holmethorpe to Redhill, but it was too heavy for the track and only lasted about a week.

Earlswood Nob

[roundhouse]

I havent forgotten about the photos but it would appear that I havent scanned them in yet.

 

When I do I will post thme here.

 

ian

[Pete 75C]

No rush Ian, but I do really appreciate it. Thanks again, Pete.

[roythebus]

Here's a copy of this email from my son who lives round the corner from the site. Remember the same Gervase is now fully restored and was working on the KESR last weekend. As an aside. when I worked at rugby in 1974/75, we used to work the sand hoppers from Willesden to Crewe, and the return empties. As we've discussed elsewhere on this forum, max speed was 35mph when loaded, even when vacuum fitted as the sand would blow everywhere. It couldn't be covered as it would then be explosive so we were told.

 

Following a goods train at 35mph on the WCML was not popular...

 

 

Nice picture of Gervase in original form-

http://www.oldreigate.com/?goto=mersthamquarry

 

Interesting local history stuff on my area….

 

 

 

And a few other pics of the Homlmethorpe sidings “before and after”

 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Vince Gould

 

Southern Railway

Assistant Fleet Engineer- New trains

Edited May 8, 2013 by roythebus

[Pete 75C]

Many thanks for that! Much appreciated. Pete.

[John Oxlade]

I've managed to dig up 52 photos of (mostly) the exchange sidings. Not sure where they all came from, some are mine, some from Flickr, etc., so I cannot give appropriate credit to them, but I could send them to you via Dropbox or similar if you like.

I haven't seen a photo of a Crompton down there either. I know it did happen as Dad told me and I also recall he told the guy in the office that he'd not be responsible if he went down there with a Crompton and it spread the rails. I don't think one ever did, but it did happen to him at Crawley New Yard once.

Kind regards

John

[cromptonnut]

There is a small section in the book "Surrey Narrow Gauge including South London" by Middleton Press of the 2ft gauge system of the "Standard Brick and Sand Co, Holmethorpe" although the information is historical so probably not much use for your purposes but if you can get hold of a copy it may be interesting and possibly give some "what if" scenarios regarding the narrow gauge not closing

[Pete 75C]

Thanks John. You're doing way better than me - I've only been able to find around 20 pics of the exchange sidings, nothing from the quarry itself! Cromptons were regulars in the sidings. As mentioned Norwood and Redhill crews would often return empties and collect full hoppers - never more than around 4 or 5 at a time because of the curve and gradient to get back up on the main line. The exchange sidings were pretty lightly laid and to this day I remember the squealing flanges on the curve across the road and up the hill! Best illustrated by the link below:

I don't have an account with any file-sharing sites but many thanks for the offer. Don't try and email me 52 pics - it will take forever! Pete.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47802536@N08/4793873481/

Edited May 9, 2013 by Pete_S

[Pete 75C]

Just spotted this on Flickr showing a Crompton at Redhill with 7 loaded silica. Obviously we did used to bring more than 4 or 5 out at a time.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/6346920393/

Edited May 9, 2013 by Pete_S

[roundhouse]

This evening our car was ready to be collected from the garage in Holmethorpe Estate.

 

Here are the photos of the old sidings.

 

This shot is from about half way down where the sidings used to be. the two new industrial units are ubilt on the East end and the loco shed.There was a road alongside the sidings but it has now been partially realigned along with a round about where there was an ordinary road junction. Just under the bridge used to be the quarry buildings but are now occuppied by resdiential properties.

 

Looking West towards the Redhill line from the same spot

 

A shot taken further West just by the old level crossing but still looking East. Part of the old sidings is now a car park but some is hoarded off ready for further development.

 

 

And now for the level crossing. The track has gone from in the road but the West side gates are still there.

 

And getting closer to the crossing, the other side of the gates there is still track down.

 

Looking towards the Redhill line the track is now heavily overgrown.

 

If I remember in the next few days I shall try and get a shot out of the window as we go past the old junction.

 

Ian

Edited May 9, 2013 by roundhouse

[roundhouse]

Just found my scanned in shots from 1991

Edited May 9, 2013 by roundhouse

[John Oxlade]

OKI, ignoring the ones above with the housing estate in them - sad to see :-( - I now have 61 images of the exchange sidings. anyone who wants copies, please send me a private message and I'll share them out using You Send It or similar.

[Pete 75C]

Ian - many thanks for that. The area now has a slightly familiar look about it as a whole, but without the reference points of the old level crossing gates at one end and the bridge under the Quarry Line at the other... what a difference. Nice to see the gates still in place though. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. Your scans, by the way, are exactly what I remember!

John - I've signed up for a Dropbox account, I'll PM you.

Pete.

[Mallard60022]

When I lived just opposite in 1970 till 75 an 08 used to do the incline 'work' and (I believe) sort the wagons. I think it only took three at a time?

I can only remember seeing a 47 in two tone working a train towards London but there was obviously far more than that. I just wasn't taking a lot of notice really - sorry. 

P

[Earlswood Nob]

Morning all

I also can remember around 1972, spotting the 08 diesel hauling two wagons at a time up the gradient. I also have a memory of one hauling a train of seven wagons, but that probably was being banked by the BIS loco. I remember the 08 was working very hard which is why I recall it, as I walked over the footbridge to visit an old friend.

Earlswood nob

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Mornin' guys,

 

'Freight only' by Paul Shannon of Summer 1988 ISBN 0 947971 24 6 states that "the sidings at Redhill are an operational centre for several miscellaneous freight services" and then lists them, before adding that sand from Holmethorpe is moved to Warrington on Speedlink services. This means that the air braked,  white BIS PAA hoppers would be favourite for the traffic.

 

Pictures of WCML Speedlink services between Willesden and Warrington would be worth studying for indicators.

 

'Modern Private Owner Wagons' by David Ratcliffe adds that 5 of the PAAs were converted to PGAs (by removing the roof) in 1987 (making 6 in total) specifically for the Holmethorpe to Crosfields of Warrington traffic. Therefore these would be very distinctive.  

 

A somewhat telling June 1990 picture of a loaded stone train passing Acton in 'Private Owner Wagons in Colour' by David Ratcliife includes several of these former BIS sand hoppers loaded with stone. I don't think that I'd be modelling sand traffic from Holmethorpe in 1990 somehow.

 

A reliable source confirmed to me a few moments ago that the last sand traffic from Redhill was in early 1990, which fits nicely with the other 'jigsaw' pieces above. 

 

Dave

Edited May 15, 2013 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[roundhouse]

Here is whats left of the junction with the Redhill line.

Taken this morning from the train so had to go for a high shutter speed hence not the best of shots in the low light conditions.

[Pete 75C]

Thanks to all for your memories and in particular, thanks to roundhouse and John Oxlade.

I'm delighted there's still a little bit left, whether it's a rusty stub of track from the main line or a set of crossing gates!

As for the 09 working the incline, I don't remember ever seeing that but it could just have happened outside my era - I was only there from 83-88.

Still haven't found a pic of a Crompton at Holmethorpe but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist!

If ever there was a prototype with serious modelling potential, this is it (in my book). Pete.

[roundhouse]

Pete

 

It is very tempting to build a layout based on this as its so local. Its just that I have so many other projects in the pipeline that I dont know when I could fit it in!

 

Maybe we will have to do a sand train to run on Star Lane which is currently under construction by a friend. We have 33's and 73's to haul it.

 

Ian