Military warehouses

[llanben]

Funny how such apparently specialised topics can generate such interesting discussions - I've read all of these with interest and it's fuelled my thinking about what else could lie at the end of my single track branch line that I originally set in the early 60's but am now setting up to swap on occasions into the 70's (good excuse for buying stock, etc!) and a military storage facility might be just the thing.

[Gruffalo]

Well GWR88, you certainly seem to have stirred us "old codgers" into reminiscing mode! I hope it both helps and allows you to model something within budget!

[GWR88]

it has indeed gruffalo! I only thought id get a few pictures and thats it not all this help!!This forum is realy helpful to me and i use it as a referance alot! It will be in budget as the building will be scratchbuilt with card. When i properly start building this ill put a topic up on it but that wont be for a while due to me deciding what to model!!!The layouts name will be based on a place in southampton so keep a lookout!

[GWR88]

iiaben my excuse to buy stock is my planned 6x4 preserved railway layout!!

[Clive Mortimore]

The best source of information is Locomotives of the Ministry of Defence from the Industrial Railway Society.

 

In the late 1950s, the WD still had several Hunslet Austerity 0-6-0ST, which lasted until the 1970s.

 

Diesels included the following:

 

Andrew Barclay “standard" 153hp 0-4-0 DM

Ruston & Hornsby type 48DS 4w DM

Hunslet 150hp 0-4-0 DM

ex-LMS 7120 type 350hp diesel shunter

ex-LMS Armstrong Whitworth 7059 type 350hp diesel shunter

 

Most of these are available as kits or can be modified from RTR models.

 

As an aside regarding army lorries, can anyone advise me on the correct colour for the UK in the 1950s and 1960s? I seem to recall them as plain army green without camouflage, which neither Oxford nor Base Toys appear to offer.

 

Tony

Hi Tony

 

Your mentioning of the diesel locomotive types reminded me of some work I done for the railway department. I was working away in my machinery wagon, more than likely making something for a member of the yacht club when the door opened. One of the civie fitters from the railway came in and said "I hear you have a valve grinder".

 

“Yes I have can, I help then"

 

"Could you do these for me?" As he held up a plastic carrier bag.

 

I was expecting another private car job.....no these were huge valves from one of the locos. They only just fitted in my little machine.

[GWR88]

Hi Tony

 

Your mentioning of the diesel locomotive types reminded me of some work I done for the railway department. I was working away in my machinery wagon, more than likely making something for a member of the yacht club when the door opened. One of the civie fitters from the railway came in and said "I hear you have a valve grinder".

 

“Yes I have can, I help then"

 

"Could you do these for me?" As he held up a plastic carrier bag.

 

I was expecting another private car job.....no these were huge valves from one of the locos. They only just fitted in my little machine.

Hhaha brilliant

[burgundy]

Thanks station master. so i can bring bombs into this as long as they are inert. God this warehouse will be busy!!

I think, if your depot is for bombs (i.e. dropped by aircraft), it should probably belong to the Air Ministry rather than the War Department. Before 1964, each of the Services had its own Department of State and all the organisation to match. However, you mention also that your scenario is based on supporting the force in Berlin. This would almost certainly have been War Department, as Berlin was mainly Land Forces (I don't think strike aircraft were based at RAF Gatow) and it implies that your depot would be based in Germany, not too far from the railhead for the British Military Train which ran from Braunschweig or Helmstedt.

Sorry if this confuses things further.

Best wishes

Eric

[Happy Hippo]

It would depend on what you meant by weapons.  Anything that was easily man portable would tend to be delivered by vehicle on a direct point to point, rather than being loaded onto a train and perhaps left overnight.

 

The same goes for the ammunition that goes with it!

 

Bear in mind that 'ammunition' covers every thing from  .22LR  all the way through to nuclear warheads.  And they all have specific handling requirements which are best dealt with by the prime user.

 

Conversely something the size of a 5.5" Howitzer would probably go as an open load!

 

As an aside, whilst I was serving, there was a bit of a panic one day when they realized that the three  5.5" Howitzers that had been presented to the local council and were now paraded on a roundabout had not been deactivated!

 

Tanks of the post war era tended to be out of gauge, certainly most of the SP artillery pieces were, hence the introduction of the Armoured Delivery Squadron whose job it was to shift such stuff from port to unit in BAOR.

 

You could still see light armour such as the CVR(T) series on trains, but these are now shipped from unit to base repair and back again on the backs of civilian contracted LGVs.

 

Colours for all army vehicles (temperate climate) would be gloss bronze green, and in the period you want to model, don't forget the plethora of  arm and divisional flashes that adorned all military vehicles.

 

RAF and RN vehicles would be the repective blues, again gloss.

 

I remember back in the mid 70's, painting alternative wheel nuts on a Bedford RL lorry, red or yellow.  (Bullsh*t baffles brains)

 

It was that or a track change on a Chieftain, so I got the easy job!

 

If you are modelling an Army depot in the 1950-60 period, then it will be controlled by the Royal Army Ordnance Corps (RAOC) (In those days, the RAF and Navy had their own supply chains)

 

Much of the heavy labouring on such a site would be undertaken by the Royal Pioneer Corps (RPC)

 

Bulk transport, by road, rail or sea was the responsibility of the Royal Corps of Transport (RCT).  But an individual unit could also pick up stores, so it would be feasible for some infantry types to be milling around the place.

 

(These three combined along with the Army Catering Corps and the Royal Engineers (Postal and Courier Service) to form the Royal Logistic Corps in 1993.

 

As far as locos were concerned we had R&H 0-6-0 DH shunters at both Ashchurch and Donnington.  The RE park at Long Marston had 0-4-0 Vanguards.

 

Long Marston was also home to the last serving  steam loco Austerity 0-6-0 t  'Royal Engineer'.  She was only brought out on high days or holidays, but I did manage to drive her in 1991.

 

Store sheds can vary.  Invariably they will be single storey.  If they are large, they will have northlights (sawtooth roof).  If the building also contains offices these will have windows in the walls.

The height of the storeshed varies depending what stores are kept there. more modern buildings have reach and tier materiels handling equipment and can be as much as 5 storeys tall, and computer controlled with fully automated selection. ('picking')

 

As well as the huge base depots, which could cover many miles, there were also smaller depots on a regional basis which individual units would use in preference to the base units. These regional depots could be a collection of large nissen type huts, and would store items that were in regular use by local units, ie combat rations.  Some were also rail served, but this less than trainload system finished when Railfreight decided it was no longer economical for them (again early 90s)

 

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed, but you should get the gist of how things operate(d) from this.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[TonyA]

Bulk transport, by road, rail or sea was the responsibility of the Royal Corps of Transport

 

Richard,

 

A small point but the RCT was not formed until 1965 from parts of the Royal Army Service Corps and the Royal Engineers. I was fortunate enough to be on the last RE cadet course at Longmoor in 1964.

 

GWR88,

 

WD locomotives were officially painted black in the early 1950s but this changed to green after 1954. Therefore, you could use an Hornby J94 or an 08 in black with the BR lettering removed. Alternatively, see if you can find one of the Hornby limited edition J94 tanks in Longmoor livery, preferably 157 (R2151). This was used at Marchwood from 1955 to 1958. Another possibility is the old Dapol J94, Warrington.

 

Tony

[Happy Hippo]

Tony,

 

Thanks for that reminder.

 

As a matter of interest, you didn't know John Poyntz as he would have been your vintage?  

 

He was my military railway mentor when I was in Antwerp, and is now I believe Chief inspector at HMRI.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[The Stationmaster]

Tony,

 

Thanks for that reminder.

 

As a matter of interest, you didn't know John Poyntz as he would have been your vintage?  

 

He was my military railway mentor when I was in Antwerp, and is now I believe Chief inspector at HMRI.

 

Regards

 

Richard

Major Poyntz has retired from the Inspectorate - some years since although I believe he was the last ex military man to serve in that role (but I don't think he did the old 'long raileway course' at Longmoor; I seem to recall Tony King saying that he was the last HMRI to have been on that course.

 

BTW I'm not sure what they're still running but back in the '70s Longmoor were running a short 'all branches' (of the Army) railway course that was part of a wider logistics course and which used to do a regular exercise on my then patch and one year I went along instead of my boss as an assessor on their main planning exercise (which was great fun plus a very nice lunch in the mess at Longmoor).

[GWR88]

I think, if your depot is for bombs (i.e. dropped by aircraft), it should probably belong to the Air Ministry rather than the War Department. Before 1964, each of the Services had its own Department of State and all the organisation to match. However, you mention also that your scenario is based on supporting the force in Berlin. This would almost certainly have been War Department, as Berlin was mainly Land Forces (I don't think strike aircraft were based at RAF Gatow) and it implies that your depot would be based in Germany, not too far from the railhead for the British Military Train which ran from Braunschweig or Helmstedt.

Sorry if this confuses things further.

Best wishes

Eric

Burg ive stretched the story a bit. Its meant to be a depot in britain that ships supplies out to the lads in berlin. not totally accurate but thats my choice thanks though

[GWR88]

It would depend on what you meant by weapons.  Anything that was easily man portable would tend to be delivered by vehicle on a direct point to point, rather than being loaded onto a train and perhaps left overnight.

 

The same goes for the ammunition that goes with it!

 

Bear in mind that 'ammunition' covers every thing from  .22LR  all the way through to nuclear warheads.  And they all have specific handling requirements which are best dealt with by the prime user.

 

Conversely something the size of a 5.5" Howitzer would probably go as an open load!

 

As an aside, whilst I was serving, there was a bit of a panic one day when they realized that the three  5.5" Howitzers that had been presented to the local council and were now paraded on a roundabout had not been deactivated!

 

Tanks of the post war era tended to be out of gauge, certainly most of the SP artillery pieces were, hence the introduction of the Armoured Delivery Squadron whose job it was to shift such stuff from port to unit in BAOR.

 

You could still see light armour such as the CVR(T) series on trains, but these are now shipped from unit to base repair and back again on the backs of civilian contracted LGVs.

 

Colours for all army vehicles (temperate climate) would be gloss bronze green, and in the period you want to model, don't forget the plethora of  arm and divisional flashes that adorned all military vehicles.

 

RAF and RN vehicles would be the repective blues, again gloss.

 

I remember back in the mid 70's, painting alternative wheel nuts on a Bedford RL lorry, red or yellow.  (Bullsh*t baffles brains)

 

It was that or a track change on a Chieftain, so I got the easy job!

 

If you are modelling an Army depot in the 1950-60 period, then it will be controlled by the Royal Army Ordnance Corps (RAOC) (In those days, the RAF and Navy had their own supply chains)

 

Much of the heavy labouring on such a site would be undertaken by the Royal Pioneer Corps (RPC)

 

Bulk transport, by road, rail or sea was the responsibility of the Royal Corps of Transport (RCT).  But an individual unit could also pick up stores, so it would be feasible for some infantry types to be milling around the place.

 

(These three combined along with the Army Catering Corps and the Royal Engineers (Postal and Courier Service) to form the Royal Logistic Corps in 1993.

 

As far as locos were concerned we had R&H 0-6-0 DH shunters at both Ashchurch and Donnington.  The RE park at Long Marston had 0-4-0 Vanguards.

 

Long Marston was also home to the last serving  steam loco Austerity 0-6-0 t  'Royal Engineer'.  She was only brought out on high days or holidays, but I did manage to drive her in 1991.

 

Store sheds can vary.  Invariably they will be single storey.  If they are large, they will have northlights (sawtooth roof).  If the building also contains offices these will have windows in the walls.

The height of the storeshed varies depending what stores are kept there. more modern buildings have reach and tier materiels handling equipment and can be as much as 5 storeys tall, and computer controlled with fully automated selection. ('picking')

 

As well as the huge base depots, which could cover many miles, there were also smaller depots on a regional basis which individual units would use in preference to the base units. These regional depots could be a collection of large nissen type huts, and would store items that were in regular use by local units, ie combat rations.  Some were also rail served, but this less than trainload system finished when Railfreight decided it was no longer economical for them (again early 90s)

 

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed, but you should get the gist of how things operate(d) from this.

 

Regards

 

Richard

I do thanks richard. ill probably base it on a place that handles uniforms, food and other nescesities

[Happy Hippo]

'Major Poyntz has retired from the Inspectorate - some years since although I believe he was the last ex military man to serve in that role (but I don't think he did the old 'long raileway course' at Longmoor; I seem to recall Tony King saying that he was the last HMRI to have been on that course.'

 

Thanks for that Mike,

 

It's years since I've seen him.

 

The last time we went out together it was doing an evening survey of the old line that served  Blackdown camp and the ranges at Bisley. we were both on separate and completely unconnected courses at the School of Ordnance.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[GWR88]

Thanks for all the help guys ive really appreciated it! heres what ive settled on:

A red brick warehouse with a concrete panel roof and large loading platform. A small nissen hut in the corner and a long chain link fence spnning the board with a checkpoint enterance. it will handle uniforms, boots, combat rations and newspapers for the lads.

This has all been really helpful guys thanks so much for the help and stories. Got to a cameo in a siding of a bloke hanging out a wagon and a guy on the ground holding out a plastic bag!!!

GWR88

p.s:Anyone know where i can get any suitable military figures for the layout such as men at rest/carrying things?

[glenng]

Try http://www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Phoenix_Figures_1_43__101_200_____Retail_only_.html near the bottom of the page

[GWR88]

Thanks glenng but do they do him in oo?

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi GWR 88

 

Regarding military figures for the late 50s. What scale do you model in?

 

Army personnel would be in post war battledress, or its denim equivalent. Post war battledress differed from war time in the collar of the blouse was open necked and the soldier wore a shirt and tie. They would have dark blue beret, unless the stores was for airborne troops, then a maroon beret would be worn. Officers and warrant officers would wear the field service cap. Gaiters and belt would be highly blancoed. In summer daylight hours they would be in "shirt sleeve order", no blouse worn and the shirt would be unbutton at the neck and sleeves rolled up just above the elbow. Unlike wartime the battledress would be ironed so that the creases were razor sharp, not left crumpled. Most WW2 figures would not be suitable without some modification.

 

Most locations the army would provide the guard, normally in the form of regimental police during the day and ordinary soldiers at night and weekends. They would not be armed but would carry a pickaxe handle. Some locations would have War Department Constabulary (forerunner to the MOD police) instead. In peace time the Royal Corps of Military Police do not guard ROAC stores.

[GWR88]

i model in OO(1:76) clive so 1:72 would be closest for airfix kits and such

[TonyA]

Remember that RE locomotive crew normally wore blue overalls similar to BR drivers as shown here.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/60790501@N04/5697231944/lightbox/

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/8160697445/lightbox/

 

However, as you can see, the actual shade varied.

 

Richard,

 

Regarding Major Poyntz, I was a very lowly cadet at Longmoor and not allowed anywhere near officers!

 

Tony

[PhilJ W]

Despite what it says on the boxes Airfix military figures are 1/76 scale rather than 1/72. I would suggest the NATO ground crew set as being the most suitable set in the range. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Despite what it says on the boxes Airfix military figures are 1/76 scale rather than 1/72. I would suggest the NATO ground crew set as being the most suitable set in the range. 

Hi Phil

 

Do you mean this set http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=561 In my opinion they look nothing like 1950's British national servicemen.

[GWR88]

Ive never seen them for sale before. Ill check the airfix website for them

[PhilJ W]

Hi Phil

 

Do you mean this set http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=561 In my opinion they look nothing like 1950's British national servicemen.

Your right, they look more American. 

[Clive Mortimore]

This is the uniform the men would be wearing http://ukpetanquediss.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/private.html

 

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-royal-army-service-corps-reel-1 and http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-royal-army-service-corps-reel-2/query/The+Royal+Army+Service+Corps+Reel+2 may be worth watching as they are RASC films of the period. There is a short section with a Barclay 0-4-0 diesel.