Military warehouses

[GWR88]

Hi all!

Im wanting to make a shunting layour based on a late 1950s military yard that handles muintions (Small arms ammunition, small arms, uniforms and food. All seems simple but heres the problem..Ive hard that military warehouses on had windows in the roof not the sides so it was harder to break in and also so muintions didnt get hot. Is this true or not and if not what did they look like/ signs were on them? Any help will be appreciated!

Thanks

[Fat Controller]

Never heard of that idea that windows on the roof would cause a building to warm up less- certainly has never worked in any building I've worked in. The various MoD depots I've seen/visited (dad did quite a lot of MoD work in the 1960s) seemed to have windows in the sides as in any other, albeit barred. They'd also have 'Northlight' windows in the roof, if it were a 'saw-tooth' roof; these roof lights, as the name suggests, were away from direct sunlight.

Buildings for general stores were generally of corrugated steel construction; those containing small arms and ammunition would probably have been brick or concrete. Any building dealing with explosives in volume would be of brick/concrete, with few windows; often either semi-buried, or protected by an earth bund. A feature was relatively lightly-constructed roofs, so the force of any explosion would be dissipated upwards. There's a book on the Bicester Military Railway available which has views of the sorts of buildings used for general stores.

Here's some Google links for typical sites:-

Bicester http://goo.gl/maps/uYxuf rail-served from Oxford- Bletchley line

RN Llangennech http://goo.gl/maps/2sPma formerly rail-served from Llandeilo Jct-Pontardulais line (depot now non-military, with lots of new buildings.)

Ashchurch http://goo.gl/maps/MBrxS rail-served from Birmingham- Gloucester line

[Gruffalo]

Have a look at Marchwood too. It is a military port on Southampton Water, has an extensive rail system and a jetty able to handle RFA support vessels such as Sir Galahad and Sir Tristram for those who remember The Falklands contretemps.

[GWR88]

Thanks for the help guys! Gruffalo i live in Southampton so ill try to find where the marchwood depot is. Also could a warehouse for the MOd be just one floor (the ground floor) or does it need more as im setting my latout in a depot that sends equipment to the british forces on the western side of the berlin wall? Thanks

[Fat Controller]

I find it fascinating to look at these sites on Google, especially as some OS Maps I have from the 1970s show no details of them. Quite a few railway features can be picked out; Ashchurch has a pair of diesel shunters visible, along with four VKAs and a rake of Warflats.

One of my favourites is Ernesettle, on the river Tamar north-west of Plymouth; these days, railway activity is limited to some sidings serving a transfer shed, with matérial being distributed around the site by road. However, traces can still be seen of the narrow-gauge lines which served the various storage bunkers; a branch passed under the Plymouth- Okehampton line to serve the jetty, where live stores are loaded/unloaded from lighters. http://goo.gl/maps/ZRBPB

Here's Marchwood, with at least three vessels moored:- http://goo.gl/maps/SzA2e

[GWR88]

I can see marchwood on the horizon (Just) from where i fish! Thanks for the help fat controller

[Fat Controller]

I can see marchwood on the horizon (Just) from where i fish! Thanks for the help fat controller

No problem. There looks to be a lot of rail activity on site, most probably being internal traffic. About a decade ago (probably longer), about 80 modified Warflats were sent back from BAOR via Eurotunnel; I think most of them ended up at Marchwood. I find the purple-liveried diesel shunters a bit lurid- whatever happened to painting everything khaki?

[GWR88]

Government cut backs most likely. Now ive gotta hold of some windows for a warehouse but i think ive got an old metcalfe kit thats unbuild laying round somewhere that ll get the windows out of. What type are the shunters because im going to be using BR green wasp stripe 08

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Brian

 

Just looked at the link to Marchwood, it has been totally rebuilt since I was with 17 Port and Maritime Workshops REME in the late 70s. Gone are the motley collection of warehouses, stores and the workshops that led down from the level crossing to the quayside. Gone also the Army Yacht Club (and the colonel’s wife in her bikini).

 

My experience with ammunition stores was they had reinforced roofs to make them bomb proof. Bad enough having the depot bombed let alone your own stuff adding to the carnage.

[GWR88]

Colnels wife?So thats the reason everybody probably joined the yacht club! Another quick question though (sorry!) but would the warehouse be classed as war department property or of been changed to MOD property?Its set in the late 1950s?Really early 1960s??

[glenng]

Have a look at this website of Little Heath (FFD1) Forward Filling Depot

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/l/little_heath_forward_filling_depot/index.shtml

[Fat Controller]

Government cut backs most likely. Now ive gotta hold of some windows for a warehouse but i think ive got an old metcalfe kit thats unbuild laying round somewhere that ll get the windows out of. What type are the shunters because im going to be using BR green wasp stripe 08

I think these days most are a type known as 'Steelman', resembling a bigger version of the Sentinel that Hornby are bringing out. There used to be lots of Hudswell-Clarks and similar; most seemed to be centre-cabs, probably because they spent lots of time in situations where there was road and pedestrian traffic in close proximity.

The sites were maintained by the Ministry of Public Buildings and Works (my father did a lot of work for them on everything from painting Forestry Commission buildings, to building hangar doors and repairing old castles); this eventually became the Property Services Agency. The change of name from 'War Department' to 'Ministry of Defence' took place in 1964- the War Department having existed since 1794 in one form or another.

Clive's correct about the ammunition stores; I was thinking about the places where they were made (Ordnance Factories), where the main risk was during the filling and handling processes.

[PaulRhB]

Telerail do a DVD of Marchwood and Dinton that shows the buildings. You won't see much from outside the fence at Marchwood, just the exchange sidings, so google satellite is the best view. From what I've seen inside a couple of depots The comments about windows are correct, pretty standard looking warehouses in most. Try looking at Warminster base just east of the station and you can see the Groundframe and sidings on google.

[GWR88]

Thanks guys. Also thanks for the info fat controller ill put signs up saying war department for the depot

[Fat Controller]

I've just 'Googled' Ludgershall, which serves as a railhead for Salisbury Plain, as well as having a lot of stores. This is the link:- http://goo.gl/maps/C5vAV

As it's possible to cross parts of the site via public roads, Google Streetview gives some views of typical buildings- try taking a 'virtual walk' along Tidworth Road. The older ones are corrugated construction, with sliding 'hangar-doors' on the gable ends, and half-height doors (presumably with loading docks inside) in the side walls. These are similar to others I've seen at sites as varied as RNSD Llangennech, RNAS Brawdy and RAF Llangennech; presumably there was a WD standard design.

One thing to remember was that most stores depots, for whatever Service, would have a large boiler-house- often, these were coal-fired, and retained a rail connection after the rest of the depot went over to road transport.

If you're modelling late 1950s/early 1960s, Base Toys do some military Karrier Bantams, which are typical of the sort of vehicle you'd see around. There'd also be Austin and similar '3-tonners' ekeing out their last days. The WD/MoD also had many Morris Traveller estates and Standard Vanguard staff cars- I think these may also be available. Bigger sites would even have buses, street-sweepers and dustbin lorries.

[Happy Hippo]

From my experience as an ordnance (not ordinance!!) officer from 1981-94, I was involved with rail operations for various stores outloads.

 

The type of load/unload facility depends on the type of stores being received or dispatched.

 

General stores depots and vehicle depots differ greatly in their individaul requirements and are again a far cry from an Ammunition depot such as Longtown or Kineton.

 

Fuel depots follow the same requirements as their civilian counterparts.

 

In your case, specifically ammunition, there were in place special precautions to reduce the risk of an accidental explosion.

 

An ammunition depot, has it's stock, dispersed throughout the storage site. in small (compared to a general stores depot) windowless hardened bunkers which are  surrounded by earth walls, shaped so that an explosion in one shed, would not compromise any other.

 

Strict contraband rules are enforced to any form of sparking!

 

Locomotives and wagons, as they run on steel wheels and rails are kept well away!.

 

Any loading is done in the rail assembly yard, well clear of the storage facility using pallets and a fork lift.

 

Trains are loaded and then despatched pdq, and it was preferable only to load one train at a time, to dispel the 'Big Bang' theory.

 

hth

 

Regards

 

Richard

[GWR88]

Thanks richard. If i deleted ammunition out of the picture could i till have weapons, uniforms, boots, food and troops coming through without any specialized buildings? Also i saw a picture from 1949-1950ish of ammunition boxes being put in a gunpowder van with the locomotive about 5 wagons away and thats why i thought i could just put ammunition around

[The Stationmaster]

Bramley was a good example of a depot storing army munitions - widely dispersed site with an extensive internal rail network plus mainline exchange sidings.  The RN depots tended to be major underground storage areas with not much visible above the surface - look at the are just north of the Tamar bridge on the Devon side for an extant site, Dean Hill was an extensive site supporting Portsmouth with some sidings above ground and the rest inside a hill..

 

If you fancy late '50s there were lots of bomber bases where wartime bomb stocks were being cleared and a lot of storage was in the open at that time as weapons were brought out of armouries and stacked ready for loading (inert bombs of course!!).  However if you look just south west of Dinton (south side of the railway on Google Maps you can clearly see the former RAF munitions storgae area of dispersed sites within woodland - it was rail connected plus an internal network.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks richard. If i deleted ammunition out of the picture could i till have weapons, uniforms, boots, food and troops coming through without any specialized buildings? Also i saw a picture from 1949-1950ish of ammunition boxes being put in a gunpowder van with the locomotive about 5 wagons away and thats why i thought i could just put ammunition around

Richard's expertise is far greater than mine but it was my understanding that apart from local 'ready use' storage munitions and general stores were usually kept in completely separate depots.  Ammunition can be loaded to ordinary vans, it doesn't need to go in GPVs (I think that was changed during the last war, I have the Instruction somewhere although I think it just applies to quantities as I believe limited amounts of small arms ammuntion had always been allowed in ordinary vans).

[GWR88]

Thanks station master. so i can bring bombs into this as long as they are inert. God this warehouse will be busy!!

[TonyA]

What type are the shunters because im going to be using BR green wasp stripe 08

 

 

The best source of information is Locomotives of the Ministry of Defence from the Industrial Railway Society.

 

In the late 1950s, the WD still had several Hunslet Austerity 0-6-0ST, which lasted until the 1970s.

 

Diesels included the following:

 

Andrew Barclay “standard" 153hp 0-4-0 DM

Ruston & Hornsby type 48DS 4w DM

Hunslet 150hp 0-4-0 DM

ex-LMS 7120 type 350hp diesel shunter

ex-LMS Armstrong Whitworth 7059 type 350hp diesel shunter

 

Most of these are available as kits or can be modified from RTR models.

 

As an aside regarding army lorries, can anyone advise me on the correct colour for the UK in the 1950s and 1960s? I seem to recall them as plain army green without camouflage, which neither Oxford nor Base Toys appear to offer.

 

Tony

 

 

[GWR88]

Thanks tony but im only 14 so kits are a no go due to expense but thanks anyway

[GWR88]

Just found this on wiki  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_of_the_Rhine#1945.E2.80.931994 think this is who should own the yard

[Philip52LC]

If you want to be totally accurate you need to be careful in mixing commodities (sorry this is MoD speak for "stuff"!). Generally until the late eighties there would be dedicated sites for the likes of  military spares each supporting part of the defence organisation. For example during the seventies and eighties and a short while after the millenium when it reopened, RNSD Llangennech supported the Royal Navy in ship and submarine spares ranging from small nuts and bolts to Engines and Gun Mountings. Each wharehouse was dedicated to a specific range and the larger components would be stacked in rows nearly up to the ceiling with the really large stuff on a hard standing outside the building. The small stuff was stored in a similar designed building but with a mezanine floor installed to enable maximum capacity. From memory the only windows were down part of one side where the office staff would be, and the shed light was either provided by having the main doors permanently open or the lights kept permanently on. I hate to think what the electric bill was like! Other Depopts were at Eaglescliffe and Copenacre (underground), though all are utilised for different purposes these day or are up for sale.  

 

Similarly Central Ornance Depot Chilwell, Donnington and Bicester supported the Army in a similar way for their vehicles including tanks (Chilwell mainly) and the RAF had large Maintenance Units particularly at Carlise and Stafford. For food and fuel there were other similar dedicated smaller depots scattered around the country and these tended to be separate from the bigger sites. Much has changed during my life in the MoD (1966-2011), so you would have great scope for instance if you chose vehicle spares as there are loads of kits available for all the bits and pieces and a multitude of different sizes of cases etc.

 

  Locowise you could still run an Austerity J94 and possibly the forthcoming Sentinel from Hornby though there are a few kits in the market for other diesels. As other contributors have suggested there are a number of books and dvd's on the topic and as you are not too farv away, have you thought about wandering through the historic part of Portsmouth Naval Base? 

 

Oh and before I forget, although not directly rail served the last time I was in bicester (2010/11) they were still using a number of nissen huts.

 

Good luck in your quest!

 

Regards

 

Philip

[GWR88]

Thanks so much phil. The layout is going to be an inglenook so i need mixed traffic. What would you suggest that would be best for that because i did want to just do a general store but that seems boring now to the stuff ive heard about from you lot!!!