Warships - day to day working information wanted if possible!

[NXEA!]

Gents, I've been looking at the Warship class recently as I've been inspired by the upcoming NBL Warship models, and watching rare cine-footage of them in the late 60's. I've always found them an interesting class, but there were two workings which stood out to me - working up to Crewe, and Waterloo-Exeter.

 

First question is, which services did they work to Crewe, and how many times a day did they turn up there? I'm presuming they worked some of the Paddington-Birkenhead's as far as Crewe? But which traction did they give way to?

 

Secondly regarding the Waterloo-Exeter, a few questions. First of all, when did they initially take over this route, and were they Swindon or NBL Warships, or both? IIRC it was sometime before the end of Bournemouth line steam, but when did they finally give way to other traction? And did they have any other duties out of Waterloo, for example any peak-time starters from places like Woking or Basingstoke? I'm also interested in workings to/from the Southern Region, I'm presuming they worked to/from Old Oak Common? And did they do any transfer freights onto other regions? Any help greatly appreciated!

[jonny777]

I don't think the Paddington to Birkenhead services went via Crewe. I believe they travelled on the GW route via Shrewsbury. My understanding of the Warships at Crewe was they were on services from the SW to NW England, which in those days were routed via the Welsh Marches line. Presumably, those trains for Liverpool or Manchester were taken over by electric locos for the final part of the journey.

[Bert Cheese]

The Warships on the old LSWR route were exclusively of the Swindon variety.

 

Given the NBL types reputation for unreliability the SR management did not want them on the route, particularly as it has many single line sections where failures could be a major nuisance.

 

The SR drivers didn't want anything to do with the NBL's either, my father drove Swindon Warships while based at Basingstoke and regarded them as decent machines and sometimes "interesting" to work on, to convert to the NBL variety involved a 3 day course which wasn't at all welcome having witnessed some of the heaps the WR sent out of Paddington!

When using WR traction was first mooted the Basing ASLEF LDC raised concerns about the NBL's and they may have been blacked if rostered, luckily the management had similar thoughts and told the WR to keep them on their own patch before such actions became necessary.

 

As well as the Mule the Mekydros also got about on various excursions, and the stone trains to Gatwick which really pushed the class to their limits mechanically.

[Andy Kirkham]

I believe Warships took over Waterloo-Exeter from steam in 1964 (I imagine at the end of the summer timetable), and were themselves displaced by Class 33s in 1971.

[TheSignalEngineer]

There's info and links about D800 series Warships at Crewe in this thread.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49844-hydraulics-was-warships-in-the-north-west/?hl=%2Bhydraulics+%2Bnorth+%2Bwest

 

Well worth a read.

[AberdeenBill]

Hi all,

 

Warships, presumably of the Swindon variety worked the overnight parcels/mail trains from Waterloo to Bournemouth and maybe(?) on to Weymouth in the late 1960s.    They could also appear in the New Forest on inter-regional passenger trains and even mixed 

freights: 

 

http://www.soulspace.me.uk/SteamWeb/gallerydlel/large-61.html

 

http://www.soulspace.me.uk/SteamWeb/gallerydlel/large-63.html

 

Can somebody please identify the 1V12 headcode?   There are many more excellent steam and diesel pictures on Nigel Kendall's site.

 

Thanks,

Bill

[NXEA!]

Thank you for all your help and corrections gents, much appreciated! Certainly some interesting snippets there! 

[Bert Cheese]

I believe Warships took over Waterloo-Exeter from steam in 1964 (I imagine at the end of the summer timetable), and were themselves displaced by Class 33s in 1971.

Indeed so, October 3rd being the last day before the Cromptons went full time.

 

For those interested the last up train was the 18:20 Exeter St Davids - Waterloo (1O18) worked by 823 Hermes, which worked light to OOC after arrival at Waterloo and was withdrawn.

The last down being the 19:08 Waterloo - Exeter (1V19) worked by 822 Hercules, which then worked the ECS to Newton Abbot and was switched off for good.

 

**Above courtesy of "Heyday of the Warships" well worth looking out for...

[Bert Cheese]

Hi all,

 

Warships, presumably of the Swindon variety worked the overnight parcels/mail trains from Waterloo to Bournemouth and maybe(?) on to Weymouth in the late 1960s.    They could also appear in the New Forest on inter-regional passenger trains and even mixed 

freights: 

 

http://www.soulspace.me.uk/SteamWeb/gallerydlel/large-61.html

 

http://www.soulspace.me.uk/SteamWeb/gallerydlel/large-63.html

 

Can somebody please identify the 1V12 headcode?   There are many more excellent steam and diesel pictures on Nigel Kendall's site.

 

Thanks,

Bill

1V12 would appear to be the 13:12 Poole to Swansea, which the Warship would usually only work as far as Bristol before being swapped for a Hymek/Brush 4 as not many Welsh crews learnt the Warships.

 

Although it also fits the pattern of W/Loo to Exeter headcodes in later years!

[Gwiwer]

"Book of the Warships" is also a handy source of reference as it includes actual workings in some detail.

 

Prior to full conversion to the type the lunchtime (13.20?) Waterloo - Exeter and afternoon return were class 33 duties for some months, probably from the May timetable change.  That resulted in the load being reduced from 9 to 8 which was the maximum permitted for a class 33 west of Salisbury. 

[Leander]

First question is, which services did they work to Crewe, and how many times a day did they turn up there? I'm presuming they worked some of the Paddington-Birkenhead's as far as Crewe? But which traction did they give way to?

 

I recall two daytime workings coming into Crewe station behind Warships in 1964, both worked up from the SW and went onto either Liverpool or Manchester behind electrics (classes 81 to 85). The Warships went onto Crewe North for a good coat of grime servicing. The North British locos (class 43) featured most. After 1964 these workings went over to or Class 47 or sometimes Western (class 52) haulage.

 

Paddington - Birkenhead trains were routed via Shrewsbury, Wrexham and Chester and didn't go anywhere near Crewe. The trains worked by Warships were SW/NW services which pre-electrification changed locos at Shrewsbury. The diesels worked through to Crewe to save on a loco change.

[D1059]

The Warships on the old LSWR route were exclusively of the Swindon variety.

 

Given the NBL types reputation for unreliability the SR management did not want them on the route, particularly as it has many single line sections where failures could be a major nuisance.

 

The SR drivers didn't want anything to do with the NBL's either, my father drove Swindon Warships while based at Basingstoke and regarded them as decent machines and sometimes "interesting" to work on, to convert to the NBL variety involved a 3 day course which wasn't at all welcome having witnessed some of the heaps the WR sent out of Paddington!

When using WR traction was first mooted the Basing ASLEF LDC raised concerns about the NBL's and they may have been blacked if rostered, luckily the management had similar thoughts and told the WR to keep them on their own patch before such actions became necessary.

 

As well as the Mule the Mekydros also got about on various excursions, and the stone trains to Gatwick which really pushed the class to their limits mechanically.

 

ISTR reading that 43s occasionally turned up on LSWR services (presumably if nothing else was available or through failures). A further restriction was apparently that D818 was not officially permitted on the route due to its unique heating boiler (Spanner Mk III ? ), but I have definitely seen pics that prove Glory did work to/from Waterloo, and in the heating season too

[byron]

One thing to consider regarding the (mis?)use of all Broad Gauge diesels in the late 60's and early 70's was the dismal availability of the class 47's. They were being converted to dual brakes and having eth fitted, so a higher number than usual were in the works. In traffic failure rates were also very high - due to rushed mods?

To keep the job going, Control resorted to grabbing what was about, if the train crew knew the traction & route, then off it went. The well known law #1 was used (get it off our patch!).

A lot of odd things arrived at Crewe in my day. I recall my yard foreman reporting that a set of WFF (White Faced Folk - though another word was used at the end of the phrase = Hereford men) were polishing the numbers on their Hymek while waiting for their back working. As with all freights at the time the inward working was booked to be a 47 that should have worked through. The Hymek was used to replace the western bound 47 that Controllers instinct knew was going to fail on arrival, to "repair" itself once the Hymek had gone.

 

Mike

[robertcwp]

NBL Warships worked the Paddington-Birmingham New Street services in the autumn of 1967.  Here is one at New Street:

 

D838_BNS_5-10-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[Rugd1022]

Lovely shot Robert.... those New St services departed from Marylebone while the layout at Paddington was modified in October and November '67, several sets of Old Oak men in the Birmingham link had to learn Marylebone - South Ruislip specially for these trains 

[Pobrien]

The dieselisation of the North to West route from Bristol took place 1961-1962.

1M96 (17.25 off Temple Meads) was the first train, I think sometime at the end of 1961 and was Hymek hauled.

Warships took over the turn no later than the beginning of the Summer Timetable June 18, 1962.

1M91 (11.25 off Temple Meads) and 1V93 return (the well known lodging turn for Newton Abbot and Shrewsbury

Castles) was dieselised from Monday March 5, 1962, although a Warship took the Northbound train on March 3 to

provide an engine for the first southbound working. 

The remaining turns (1M95 (13.30) and 1M99 (19.15 off Temple Meads) and their respective southbound

workings (1V86, 1V95, 1V98) were dieselised from Monday June 18, 1962. The 1V95/1M99 were the last regular

King workings into Bristol - 6023 on Friday June 15.  On the first day of the new timetable 6018 was in charge of

1V95.

 

Steam frequently replaced Warships on these trains, particularly during the harsh 1962/63 Winter.  Even as late as

Spring 1963, the situation had become so serious that four trains were handed over to steam traction for April and

May 1963, with the turns being mainly worked by St Philips Marsh Castles, particularly 4087. The four trains were

1V86, 1V95, 1M96, 1M99)  All workings reverted to Warship haulage at the start of the 1963 Summer Timetable.

Brushes took over from Warships at some time in 1964.  The 1V93 (the only train not to reverse at Newport in 1965)

was occasionally hauled by Britannias, right up to the end of steam in Bristol in November 1965.

 

Here is a photo of 1V93, which probably sums up the Warships' short reign on these trains, although others may disagree.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55350440@N06/5273626149/in/photolist-931HjM

[Rugd1022]

 With respect Patrick, a lot of the earlier Diesel Hydraulic failures were down to electrical and train heating boiler problems which couldn't always be sorted while out on the road. Engine and transmission failures were much less common than some folk would have us believe, and when they did occur it was often due to wrongly specced components bought in from outside sources. Exacerbating the problem was the fact that a lot of fault finding training had to be done whilst on the move, such was the pace of trying to get all the crews trained up in time. A simple fuse blowing or circuit breaker tripping out was sometimes difficult for the Instructors involved to trace under these conditions resulting in a loco being declared a failure for something minor. This wasn't restricted to the Hydraulics either, numerous Sulzer, BRCW and English Electric locos suffered similar fates....!

[Pobrien]

 With respect Patrick, a lot of the earlier Diesel Hydraulic failures were down to electrical and train heating boiler problems which couldn't always be sorted while out on the road. Engine and transmission failures were much less common than some folk would have us believe, and when they did occur it was often due to wrongly specced components bought in from outside sources. Exacerbating the problem was the fact that a lot of fault finding training had to be done whilst on the move, such was the pace of trying to get all the crews trained up in time. A simple fuse blowing or circuit breaker tripping out was sometimes difficult for the Instructors involved to trace under these conditions resulting in a loco being declared a failure for something minor. This wasn't restricted to the Hydraulics either, numerous Sulzer, BRCW and English Electric locos suffered similar fates....!

Thanks for your detailed response.  You clearly have much technical knowledge of the Warships and their early history.  I was a teenage train spotter who spent a lot of time observing and recording the changes from steam to diesel traction at Bristol 1961-66.  Am I biased against Warships ?  I certainly am, when I consider the superb Castles that they were displacing.  But Castles also were subject to occasional failure - I remember 7015 working 1M91 through Bristol and having to be replaced by 4077 Chepstow Castle.

 

On holiday this year sharing the same apartment block was a former Shrewsbury fireman from the 1950-1960's.  He often worked the route to Bristol and beyond and had fond memories of the Castes he worked on (including 7015).  When I asked him how he found the Warships, he held his head in his hand and shook his head.  Anecdotal perhaps, but the view of a man who worked both tractions.

 

The faults you mention were probably ironed out by 1963/64, but still the failures occurred more than occasionally.  One of the worst offenders was D863 Warrior.  When it left Temple Meads, we knew there was a good chance it would not return on the rostered working next day.  It was no surprise that it was an early withdrawal in 1969 after less than seven years in service. The early Castles worked 35-40 years.

 

It wasn't only the North to West route that had its problems with Warships

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55350440@N06/5251623406/in/photolist-914WF9

[Rugd1022]

You'll always hear good and bad things about the Hydraulics from those who worked on them back in the day... but by and large a lot of what has been written about them in the dim and distant past was misinformed and repeated in print often enough to become 'fact'. Those I work with now and have worked with in the past who knew them well say that the Swindon built 42s were fine machines and the North British built 43s were much more troublesome on the whole.

 

On the flip side, I've also heard terrible things said about a handful of Castles which were God awful steamers no matter what Swindon and Old Oak tried to do with them..!

 

For the record, I love Castles too!