Ballasting without tears?.on thin sleeper track

[gordon s]

Success!  Finally got a mix that would fill the sleeper gap and accommodate PVA shrinkage without leaving gaps.  I went back to a thin mix of PVA/water and a drop of washing up liquid to break the surface tension and then filled the sleeper gap using my finetip PVA applicator.   http://www.finetip.co.uk

 

This time I was able to use the capillary action to my advantage by filling the gaps with the thin mix and then sprinkling on a good amount of N gauge ballast.  Left it to dry for a few hours and came down this morning to remove the excess.  Glad to say the gaps stayed filled and have set solid...

 

If it were me, I'd still use SMP track in the first place, but at least I have managed to get an acceptable result with thick sleeper track. :-)

 

 

[Ray H]

Gordon

 

Many thanks for going to all that trouble. I'm convinced that the main cause of my difficulty is the lightweight nature of the sand otherwise I can't believe that the vac would manage to uplift stuff that had had several previous close encounters with said vac.

 

I've surrendered and decided to use some Fine (possibly N gauge) cinder ballast to ballast the track and to have a thin layer of plaster over the adjacent ground.

 

Many thanks once again for all your trouble.

[6029 King Stephen]

An interesting topic. For ballasting I use the method advocated by Norman Solomon in the Right Track DVD 10, where you paint Febond PVA (available from Tool Station) onto 3mm foam and then lay the track down, spread over a layer of ballast, wait up to a maximum of 10 minutes before hoovering up the ballast. Similar to Gordon, I use either C&L thin sleepers, 1.06 copperclad or SMP/C&L flexi track and this method results in very good looking ballasted track with minimum fuss or mess.

 

I was reading Ray's problems with sand and thought about Barry Norman's suggestion in either Right Track DVD 5 or 6 where he is creating a goods yard area with ballast that covers the sleepers and is just under the rail. Barry mixes Febond PVA with plaster and water to create a creamy paste. He then has two pieces of material such as cork of the thickness of the sleepers and spreads the PVA/plaster mix and then scrapes it to form a smooth top with a piece of scrap plastic card. He then presses the track into the PVA/plaster mix and then covers the area with his fine ash/cinder mix (I think he uses a dry clay type) and tamps it down before hoovering off the excess. What is left looks really good and will be a method that I will adopt when I get to the goods area of my layout, Friary Green.

 

For ballast I use Woodland Scenics medium grey ballast. I have tried their fine ballast but felt the grains are too small whereas the medium size looks better without appearing too coarse.

 

I am an avid follower of Eastwood Town and look forward to updates.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Ray H]

Steve

 

Thanks for your comments

 

Barry's process only works if the track is not down already. I wanted to test everything worked before I started ballasting and didn't want to have to lift the track after the testing so that I could ballast it. That would have defeated the purpose of the testing in my book.

[6029 King Stephen]

Fair point, Ray.

 

In fact that is the only negative part about using Norman's method of laying and ballasting track in that if you solder droppers to each section of track before laying, it is almost impossible to feed those droppers through holes in the baseboard when there is a layer of PVA in the way. However, once I have built a section of track such as a junction or crossover I check that it works before I lay it on the PVA and ballast it. After it has been laid and ballasted I then solder droppers to each piece and drill a hole in the baseboard for the wire to pass through.

 

Another alternative for you to consider would be that suggested by Ian Wright in his book about building finescale track but again it has to done before track is fixed down. It should be remembered that Ian is building track to P4 standards with ply and rivet construction which makes his method easier to do for point work because the rivet indicates where the rails will go. For plain track it would work for other gauges or you could drill a new hole to suit OO or EM gauges in the ply sleeper if you marked the hole's position whilst sitting on the template.

 

What he does is fixes the sleepers to the paper template, then spreads PVA between the sleepers and spreads ballast over the formation before vacuuming it off. He then fixes the rails in place using gauges and soldering the rails to the rivets. He fits cosmetic chairs along the rails afterwards. For fixing laying track formations to the baseboard he uses a "floating" track bed where only the sides of the paper templates are gummed down with parcel tape over the cork or foam track bed. I haven't tried the method myself but I suppose a 1.06 PCB sleeper could used instead of a ply sleeper with a rivet in it provided there was a pencil or pen mark to show where the rail should sit. The reason given for ballasting the track before the rails are soldered in place is that otherwise the rails get in the way which is a fair point (no pun intended).

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[6029 King Stephen]

Please note that in both of my posts above wherever I mention 1.06mm thick PCB, I actually mean 1.6mm. This is the thickness of thin sleeper and the chair when mixing C&L individual parts and PCB soldered track work.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Trevellan]

I am currently ballasting my first SWAG module and have tried three different methods, none of which is ideal. I should point out that the RMweb module spec is for code 100 track and I have used Hornby long straights (R603) acquired for another project.

 

The CK method, as promulgated by Gordon, is probably the best compromise for code 75 track with correct sleeper spacings. However, I tried this on a short section of code 100 set track and, while it is feasible, I was already feeling vaguely homicidal after this small test piece!

 

I also tried applying a fine layer of adhesive with a syringe before adding ballast and vacuuming off the excess, but I also found this unsatisfactory for my purposes. I have therefore gone with the usual dry ballasting, followed by a mix of decorators' PVA with a few drops of matt leather and matt white acrylic paint and the obligatory drops of washing up liquid.

 

A second module will soon be following the first and I will probably pre-paint the sleepers and rail sides and use the Norman Solomon method. Track feeds are via PCB sleepers at each end of the board, so there's no worry about droppers.

[Ray H]

Surely it is not just the electrical connections that need to be tested before the track is ballasted; the alignment is equally as important. Tighter curves more common with R-T-R track are renown for causing alignment problems at rail ends (which don't always occur at baseboard joins where the rail is supported differently.

 

I'm grateful for all the suggestions and comment but I remain convinced that something as light as chinchilla sand is never going to be a workable option unless the adhesive is applied after the sand and the basic appearance isn't too critical. That is, unless someone can find a practical way of securing what amounts to about a 2mm thickness of the sand grains each measuring no more than about 0.1mm in diameter. I should add that the congealed sand in the initial test piece produced by the more usual method of applying glue to ballast has also now broken down, presumably because the sand grains are too fine for the PVA to reliably adhere to it.

[trisonic]

Have you tried using IPA instead of water to carry the PVA? Or even Distilled water?

 

Best, Pete.

[DavidR]

I have followed this thread with interest: particularly the various methods (and kindly advice offered). While looking at a Polish model rail site, I came across this video on ballasting.

Beware: it's all in Polish, but the video is interesting in that he has what looks like code 100 rail, deep sleepers and appears to be using undiluted glue.

Also please note that the word 'clay' is spoken several times - this is Polish for 'glue'. 

 

Edit for spelling

Edited February 26, 2014 by DavidR

[Trevellan]

Good grief! It's Gordon's Polish cousin...

[6029 King Stephen]

There is a final method I have just remembered and one I used when I was using code 100 Peco Streamline track. There was a powdered glue called Cascamite that was produced by Humbrol (I haven't seen it for a while) that you mix with your ballast material almost on a 1:1 basis. The ballast with glue mix is the laid dry and is then wetted using a plant sprayer with a drop of washing up liquid, the area being thoroughly wetted. Leave for 24 hours and you are left with rock hard ballast. You may need to scrape some ballast off between point blades and on the web of rails but it was very effective.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

PS if this method is one demonstrated in the Polish film; my apologies, i haven't watched it yet.

[gordon s]

Well I never….Had a look at the Polish film, but noted several differences.  He appeared to be using PVA straight from the bottle.  Not only was it hard to paint, taking three or more attempts to fill each sleeper space, the tamping down is a complete departure.  I never tamp down the ballast as too much pressure and the PVA will ooze out through the ballast as you break the surface and then you will have a mess.

 

Interesting, but I keep to CK's method..:-)

 

Rock hard was an understatement with Cascamite..

 

Anyway, spent the last couple of weeks completing the ballasting on my new board on ET.  Just half an hour or so per session sees the job done.  I'll update the ET thread in the next few days and you can see the results.

[bgman]

I have followed this thread with interest: particularly the various methods (and kindly advice offered). While looking at a Polish model rail site, I came across this video on ballasting.

Beware: it's all in Polish, but the video is interesting in that he has what looks like code 100 rail, deep sleepers and appears to be using undiluted glue.

Also please note that the word 'clay' is spoken several times - this is Polish for 'glue'. 

 

Edit for spelling

Blimey!!! Do the Polish modellers have nine lives ( like cats !!) ?

I think they'd need em all just to finish one length of flexitrack !!!!!

[47137]

I'm grateful for all the suggestions and comment but I remain convinced that something as light as chinchilla sand is never going to be a workable option unless the adhesive is applied after the sand and the basic appearance isn't too critical. That is, unless someone can find a practical way of securing what amounts to about a 2mm thickness of the sand grains each measuring no more than about 0.1mm in diameter. I should add that the congealed sand in the initial test piece produced by the more usual method of applying glue to ballast has also now broken down, presumably because the sand grains are too fine for the PVA to reliably adhere to it.

I've had plenty of ballasting failures but the techniques described here ("put ballast onto glue") have always worked for me, sometimes after a second application, while the "add wetted glue to ballast" method made messy and shapeless results. I like to apply masking tape along the edges, apply glue and sprinkle the ballast from a height. Then lift the tape and vacuum up promptly. It's easier to add too little ballast and top it up next day than pick off wet bits or chisel off dry lumps. Perhaps with a very fine ballast like sand, it would be worthwhile to apply an "undercoat" of coarser ballast to get near the wanted finished surface, and then next day apply the sand as a "top coat".

 

- Richard.

[Guest]

Bumping this topic as it's recently proved to be very useful and I'm sure there must be plenty of RMWebbers that could benefit. The layout that I'm currently building uses C&L thin sleeper bases which is a first for me as I've always relied on Peco. Even though I was aware of this topic, I still went ahead and tried to ballast using my usual method of brushing the ballast into place dry, wetting and then using a dropper to soak in a 50/50 solution of PVA/water. Disaster! Due to the very thin layer of ballast between the sleepers, most of it floated out of place and looked just awful. Following a few choice swears, I remembered Gordon's/CK's method and gave it a go. Much happier. Time consuming, but it really does work. Thanks guys.

 

 

This method doesn't even look too bad on some slightly thicker Tillig sleepers (I'm using Tillig pointwork). Photos taken not long after hoovering the excess, and it may shrink back a little when totally dry but it still works for me.

[47137]

Looks good to me, and also suitable for light railways and secondary lines where the track seems to be on top of the ballast rather than restrained by it.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

Nearly a year on I have had a go with Gordon's method for ballasting with some success so here are my photos for anyone "still putting it off". It seems better to bounce this topic than to start a new one.

 

This is my very first attempt, the day after I did it, on some SMP track. The black foam track bed is showing through on the edges, it would be better to give this a quick coat of paint first

 

For the second coat I added a little IPA with more water to thin the mix as suggested by Pete (Trisonic) and I took this next photo to show the consistency of the glue I ended up with

 

I am applying the glue on the outside edges with a "Mono-jet" spray, then using the brush to push the glue into position, this speeds up application (no brush reloads) and was extremely helpful along the bottom of the station platform

 

So this is my result after the second coat, the colour will not be to everyone's taste but I can tone it down a bit one day - the standard "children's art" spatula is a perfect width to go between the upright bits on Peco platform edging

 

I also had a go with some gapped Peco streamline code 75 - the ballast has ended up half-way up the sleepers which will be quite useful for my somewhat "secondary" line and its sidings but I imagine a second coat of ballast will take it up to the tops of the sleepers - as it stands there is room to add some weeds

 

This lot has taken me about two hours in all and just like a Woodland Scenics video there wasn't any mess - well hardly any :-)

 

- Richard.

[gordon s]

Glad it all turned out well for you Richard.  I know it can appear quite time consuming at the front end but with little or no rework/cleaning, I'm fairly sure the time difference is negligible.  I tend to turn on some music and do it for an hour or so and then go back again another time.

 

This method is great for plain track but for pointwork I prefer to paint the PVA onto the cork ballast and then sit the pointwork directly into the wet PVA and add the ballast immediately.  It does given a slightly different effect with the track appearing to sit on top of the ballast, but if done carefully, there is virtually no risk at all of gumming up the works in any point work.

 

Just to give give credit where credit is due, I'm just a convert, the original idea came from Captain Kernow....

 

Here's a pic of some pointwork done by the second method.

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by gordon s

[grob1234]

Very interesting thread.

 

I've been researching ballasting options for my proposed layout, 'Bawtry'.

 

I have used the traditional method of spread ballast, wet, and then add glue. It works ok, and my N Gauge layout (link in my signature) is ballasted this way. However, I feel for a bigger OO layout, a different approach would be necessary.

 

One method that I have seen, is a hybrid method. It involves laying the underlay, I'd favour 3mm closed cell foam, with the edges chamfered to create the ballast shoulder. Once the track is painted it is laid over the foam. The first stage is to lay a strip of glue either side of the shoulder to create the cess. Ballast is sprinkled on the wet glue and excess hoovered after 10 mins. Leave to dry overnight. Then paint the shoulders of the foam with glue and again sprinkle ballast onto the glue. Hoover off excess. Once dry, the shoulders form a template to hold the ballast that you spread dry between the rails in the traditional manner. I have not tried the method, but I wonder if it might give more control than doing the whole lot in the standard way?

 

Gordon, with regards to your method, when do you attach the dropper wires for the track? I'd prefer to solder the droppers to the underside personally, I was wondering what you do?

 

Finally, I might like to comment on Norman Solomans method. One poster mentioned the inability to pre solder dropper wires on the rail underside when using his method, due to the fact that the pre drilled holes would fill up with glue. How about preparing the track bed (3mm foam) and dropper wire holes, then, before applying the febond, might it be possible to use a cocktail stick or a small pipe cleaner inserted in each dropper wire hole to prevent the glue penetrating the hole? Before track laying the items could be removed and it would be possible to thread the droppers through, and then ballast using Normans method? I have not tried this by the way, just wondering what others might think?

 

Many thanks for the interesting thread.

[chris p bacon]

Gordon, with regards to your method, when do you attach the dropper wires for the track? I'd prefer to solder the droppers to the underside personally, I was wondering what you do?

 

Finally, I might like to comment on Norman Solomans method. One poster mentioned the inability to pre solder dropper wires on the rail underside when using his method, due to the fact that the pre drilled holes would fill up with glue. How about preparing the track bed (3mm foam) and dropper wire holes, then, before applying the febond, might it be possible to use a cocktail stick or a small pipe cleaner inserted in each dropper wire hole to prevent the glue penetrating the hole? Before track laying the items could be removed and it would be possible to thread the droppers through, and then ballast using Normans method? I have not tried this by the way, just wondering what others might think?

 

Many thanks for the interesting thread.

Mine are on the underside and I didn't have a problem.

 

Track/turnouts were made up on a copy of the plan and wires were soldered on the underside. This was transferred to the boards were there was a Templot template laid, the holes were marked and drilled and the wires fed through the hole and the track placed over the plan, it was then pulled back a few inches and laid to one side while the plan was cut away where the track would be, this area was then plastered with glue and the track laid back down and pressed into it with the ballast sprinkled over. As it was laid the wires were pulled tight on the underside to make sure there were no kinks.

This has given an all over cover of ballast where the track is laid although I will add more to the Up and Down mains as they were ballasted deeper. 

[grob1234]

Mine are on the underside and I didn't have a problem.

 

Track/turnouts were made up on a copy of the plan and wires were soldered on the underside. This was transferred to the boards were there was a Templot template laid, the holes were marked and drilled and the wires fed through the hole and the track placed over the plan, it was then pulled back a few inches and laid to one side while the plan was cut away where the track would be, this area was then plastered with glue and the track laid back down and pressed into it with the ballast sprinkled over. As it was laid the wires were pulled tight on the underside to make sure there were no kinks.

This has given an all over cover of ballast where the track is laid although I will add more to the Up and Down mains as they were ballasted deeper.

 

Just re looked at your layout thread, I really like your methodology. It's the way I'll approach my track laying I'm sure. I was worried the droppers would get in the way and you'd have problems spreading the glue. Your pictures show this is clearly not the case. Top work.

[chris p bacon]

Just re looked at your layout thread, I really like your methodology. It's the way I'll approach my track laying I'm sure. I was worried the droppers would get in the way and you'd have problems spreading the glue. Your pictures show this is clearly not the case. Top work.

I shamelessly pinched it from Norman saunders.

 

 

On a slightly off topic subject I'm picking up an article on Bawtry at a Committee meeting for you in 2 weekends time, he doesn't have a scanner so I'll do it for him and pass on to you.

[meil]

 

Finally, I might like to comment on Norman Solomans method.

It is not Norman Soloman's method - the method was developed by the Model Railway Study Group/P4 Group. Norman Soloman has simply adopted the method, which many others have done with success.

[grob1234]

It is not Norman Soloman's method - the method was developed by the Model Railway Study Group/P4 Group. Norman Soloman has simply adopted the method, which many others have done with success.

Perhaps I should have said "the method that I have seen Normon Soloman use".