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Good Afternoon Jonathan,

 

This is a crop of a photograph taken at Mansfield that I have just found, I think it is pretty conclusive, re the box outside of the queenpost. It looks as if it may possibly be a Vickers unit rather than Stones version for example. Also, take a look how open the space is on the compo, no sign of anything between the queen post there.

 

554374647_Mansfieldcrop.jpg.e3cb4d9d4307a684ce97ba7e6edf41d9.jpg

 

 

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Good evening Andrew,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to post that.   Double bonus if I can recycle the second box I've made onto the other twin and not have to make up two more.

 

I fancy I see a raised/tapered front to that box; were both makes the same shape?   As I found last night, it's easy enough to pop them off and move them about.  Everything was rearranged with not too much effort or damage, I'm pleased to report.   The Isinglass drawing shows the Compo with a single battery box and the BT with 2, so only half marks for poor old John there.   Mine is starting to be quite heavily annotated. 

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1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Good evening Andrew,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to post that.   Double bonus if I can recycle the second box I've made onto the other twin and not have to make up two more.

 

I fancy I see a raised/tapered front to that box; were both makes the same shape?   As I found last night, it's easy enough to pop them off and move them about.  Everything was rearranged with not too much effort or damage, I'm pleased to report.   The Isinglass drawing shows the Compo with a single battery box and the BT with 2, so only half marks for poor old John there.   Mine is starting to be quite heavily annotated. 

 

Evening Jonathan,

 

I'm glad you managed to sort out the problems I've been dumping on you, without inflicting any damage. The Vickers unit is quite distinctive, Mike Trice very kindly supplied a drawing, as you will know. He also photographed the real thing, see below. The front shape of the box and the rather stunted appearance as compared to those in Thompson carriages for example, is quite distinctive. The picture above and another that I have also located today, seem to confirm the box as being Vickers equipment. 

 

Notice how prominent the steam heating pipe is in the photo, I will be adding that to mine as the underframes are so open on that side

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/153784-gresley-dia242-artic-stock-from-kirk-kits/page/4/&tab=comments#comment-4059708

 

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Andrew, thank you again.   I shall be going back to the twins later in the week and making sure the other underframes are correct.   What a wonderful resource this Interweb is.

 

For a change, I spent part of the weekend and last night fiddling with chains until I was all but crosseyed.

 

PD-quad-pipes-small.jpg

 

I'm building up a short train loaded with steel pipes.  This PD quad is a build from years ago which I've reworked.  It still needs bits and bobs of detailing.

GK-conflat-v-single.jpg

 

More or less two years since I put the brake gear on it at Warley, one of Mr. King's resin Conflat Vs loaded.  The container is one of the Unit Models ones sold as LMS and repainted.   Container designs were coordinated by the RCH and so were broadly similar across the companies.   I believe the door closing arrangement on this should be different from the LMS, but I've failed to find a photograph.

 

GK-conflat-v-two-a-types.jpg

 

This one loaded with two LNER A types from an original made by Caroline Middleditch of this parish.  This was a right fiddle to chain down, partly due to there being so little room and latterly because I opened a new pack of chain and found very quickly that the slightest tension on it caused the links to open and part.   It's not completely wasted, I can use it for draping chains on empty wagons, but for this purpose it's useless.   No idea where it came from so I can't warn you off it.   I'll try Ambis for a replacement.   I've left this one unblackened so you can see the different bits and bobs used.  the turnbuckles are Ambis.

 

Has anyone come up with a 4mm early pressed steel B type container yet?

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Andrew, thank you again.   I shall be going back to the twins later in the week and making sure the other underframes are correct.   What a wonderful resource this Interweb is.

 

For a change, I spent part of the weekend and last night fiddling with chains until I was all but crosseyed.

 

PD-quad-pipes-small.jpg

 

I'm building up a short train loaded with steel pipes.  This PD quad is a build from years ago which I've reworked.  It still needs bits and bobs of detailing.

GK-conflat-v-single.jpg

 

More or less two years since I put the brake gear on it at Warley, one of Mr. King's resin Conflat Vs loaded.  The container is one of the Unit Models ones sold as LMS and repainted.   Container designs were coordinated by the RCH and so were broadly similar across the companies.   I believe the door closing arrangement on this should be different from the LMS, but I've failed to find a photograph.

 

GK-conflat-v-two-a-types.jpg

 

This one loaded with two LNER A types from an original made by Caroline Middleditch of this parish.  This was a right fiddle to chain down, partly due to there being so little room and latterly because I opened a new pack of chain and found very quickly that the slightest tension on it caused the links to open and part.   It's not completely wasted, I can use it for draping chains on empty wagons, but for this purpose it's useless.   No idea where it came from so I can't warn you off it.   I'll try Ambis for a replacement.   I've left this one unblackened so you can see the different bits and bobs used.  the turnbuckles are Ambis.

 

Has anyone come up with a 4mm early pressed steel B type container yet?

 

 

 

 

Good Afternoon Jonathan,

 

I still have a full steel train awaiting the last step of chaining on the loads, it is currently lying abandoned since the summer. Being a load chaining virgin, I haven't worked out what I'm doing yet. Such as, how big were the chains, how many links across a wagon, who's chain looks best. I did two conflats a couple of years back, they were a pain but I persevered with them. They look OK but I shall probably re visit them, as your shackles etc look much more convincing.

 

Re the dia. 210, I think that it is probable that the compo also had a regulator box, I just haven't been able to locate it yet. I have found the regulator box on related diagrams of 55' 6 3/4'' BT-CL twins* but the situation is rather complicated by them having a different layout of battery boxes. Never mind, contact from Dart castings, indicates that I should have a package from them at the end of the week, then the 210 can be finished, I hope.

 

*On the compo.

Edited by Headstock
clarify a point regarding regulator box location.
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Jonathan

 

      Do you know if it possible to buy the Parkside Container S Wagon  from anywhere, without the Open Container ? I need six at the moment !!

 I have recieved the decals for the conversion of the  A Containers,  from John Peck good service .

 

 

cheers for any suggestions

 

Mick

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4 hours ago, micklner said:

Jonathan

 

      Do you know if it possible to buy the Parkside Container S Wagon  from anywhere, without the Open Container ? I need six at the moment !!

 I have recieved the decals for the conversion of the  A Containers,  from John Peck good service .

 

 

cheers for any suggestions

 

Mick

I think I read that Peco will still sell individual Parkside kit sprues, although I also seem to recall that it was at a more expensive price than from Parkside.

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9 hours ago, micklner said:

Do you know if it possible to buy the Parkside Container S Wagon  from anywhere, without the Open Container ?

 

I'd like to if it is.   I have a stack of the open containers and no use for them and like you, I'd like more conflats.  If Peco will do the sprues separately that might be the way to go.   Or a lot of raking over second hand stalls - the one I've just built had a £4 price on it, from the s/h stand at Redcar by the look of it.

 

9 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Any luck with that BG?

 

No.  Whatever you painted it with has turned out to be the hardest substance known to man.  I'm bringing my windy hammer home from work tonight.

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

I'd like to if it is.   I have a stack of the open containers and no use for them and like you, I'd like more conflats.  If Peco will do the sprues separately that might be the way to go.   Or a lot of raking over second hand stalls - the one I've just built had a £4 price on it, from the s/h stand at Redcar by the look of it.

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

I have sent a email to Peco, and will let you know the reply in due course .

Edited by micklner
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2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

I'd like to if it is.   I have a stack of the open containers and no use for them and like you, I'd like more conflats.  If Peco will do the sprues separately that might be the way to go.   Or a lot of raking over second hand stalls - the one I've just built had a £4 price on it, from the s/h stand at Redcar by the look of it.

 

 

No.  Whatever you painted it with has turned out to be the hardest substance known to man.  I'm bringing my windy hammer home from work tonight.

 

 

 

 

Wait, what’s that going to do? Haha

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On 24/11/2020 at 12:31, Headstock said:

 

I still have a full steel train awaiting the last step of chaining on the loads, it is currently lying abandoned since the summer. Being a load chaining virgin, I haven't worked out what I'm doing yet. Such as, how big were the chains, how many links across a wagon, who's chain looks best. I did two conflats a couple of years back, they were a pain but I persevered with them. They look OK but I shall probably re visit them, as your shackles etc look much more convincing.

 

 

For chains I use Caldercraft solid link brass chain at 42 links per inch which for me looks right and being solid link is not prone to links coming apart when stretched. I buy mine online from Ship Wright Shop:  http://www.shipwrightshop.com/shop/contents/en-uk/d356_Chain.html

(The above is also a good source of thread for depicting ropes!)

 

1025429288_BolsterPinChain.jpg.ccabe49febc293dfc9dd3c27cece0052.jpg

 

263701093_42lpiChain.jpg.197ec57ecca711d2a6dfd00d211c09ec.jpg

 

 

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

I'd like to if it is.   I have a stack of the open containers and no use for them and like you, I'd like more conflats.  If Peco will do the sprues separately that might be the way to go.   Or a lot of raking over second hand stalls - the one I've just built had a £4 price on it, from the s/h stand at Redcar by the look of it.

 

 

I contacted Peco on the matter of supplying spare sprues and they are happy to do so. The person in charge of spares is Andrew Beard and he is quite happy to be contacted directly if anyone requires spares - I did specifically ask if it was OK to post the following telephone contact details and Andrew is fine about me doing so.

 

Tel: 01297 626204 ext 261

 

Only complete sprues are available and there may be a wait for a particular batch to be manufactured if none are to hand immediately.

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1 hour ago, SP Steve said:

 

For chains I use Caldercraft solid link brass chain at 42 links per inch which for me looks right and being solid link is not prone to links coming apart when stretched. I buy mine online from Ship Wright Shop:  http://www.shipwrightshop.com/shop/contents/en-uk/d356_Chain.html

(The above is also a good source of thread for depicting ropes!)

 

1025429288_BolsterPinChain.jpg.ccabe49febc293dfc9dd3c27cece0052.jpg

 

263701093_42lpiChain.jpg.197ec57ecca711d2a6dfd00d211c09ec.jpg

 

 

 

I contacted Peco on the matter of supplying spare sprues and they are happy to do so. The person in charge of spares is Andrew Beard and he is quite happy to be contacted directly if anyone requires spares - I did specifically ask if it was OK to post the following telephone contact details and Andrew is fine about me doing so.

 

Tel: 01297 626204 ext 261

 

Only complete sprues are available and there may be a wait for a particular batch to be manufactured if none are to hand immediately.

 

Good afternoon SP Steve,

 

thanks for the post. There seems to be very little information on the subject in model railway land. Due to recent events, my ability to go out and measure something, or seek documentation has somewhat been curtailed.

 

Your modelling looks superb, however I'm looking for something not so fine and with longer links for my particular prototype. I had become something of a link counter, based on the photographs that I had collected. The results I got were pretty consistent, no less than twenty four and never more than thirty links of chain would reach from one side of a typical bolster wagon to the other. This seemed to be confirmed by a couple of loading and securing drawings. They worked out at twenty seven links of chain would be required to cross the wagon in a straight line. Obviously, more links would be required depending on the size of the load. Currently I have got no further in converting this into real world chain, the whole descriptions surrounding these products is annoyingly confusing.

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On 24/11/2020 at 09:46, jwealleans said:

Andrew, thank you again.   I shall be going back to the twins later in the week and making sure the other underframes are correct.   What a wonderful resource this Interweb is.

 

For a change, I spent part of the weekend and last night fiddling with chains until I was all but crosseyed.

 

PD-quad-pipes-small.jpg

 

I'm building up a short train loaded with steel pipes.  This PD quad is a build from years ago which I've reworked.  It still needs bits and bobs of detailing.

GK-conflat-v-single.jpg

 

More or less two years since I put the brake gear on it at Warley, one of Mr. King's resin Conflat Vs loaded.  The container is one of the Unit Models ones sold as LMS and repainted.   Container designs were coordinated by the RCH and so were broadly similar across the companies.   I believe the door closing arrangement on this should be different from the LMS, but I've failed to find a photograph.

 

GK-conflat-v-two-a-types.jpg

 

This one loaded with two LNER A types from an original made by Caroline Middleditch of this parish.  This was a right fiddle to chain down, partly due to there being so little room and latterly because I opened a new pack of chain and found very quickly that the slightest tension on it caused the links to open and part.   It's not completely wasted, I can use it for draping chains on empty wagons, but for this purpose it's useless.   No idea where it came from so I can't warn you off it.   I'll try Ambis for a replacement.   I've left this one unblackened so you can see the different bits and bobs used.  the turnbuckles are Ambis.

 

Has anyone come up with a 4mm early pressed steel B type container yet?

 

 

 

 

Well, I have been thinking about the BL/BLS Containers. (Tatlow 4B Page 190, and drawings which you(?) sent me showing the roof.)

I think I have just realised a way to do it, and sent off for the requisite materials.

This might work!

If so, then I might be able to see a way to do the BLC containers as well.

Yours

Caroline

 

(PS did send you a message on the LNER forum, but perhaps you didn't see it!)

 

 

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48 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

If it helps, Andrew, I've just received packets of 27 lpi and 20 lpi chain from Ambis Engineering.   I can put up a picture this evening.

 

Thanks Jonathan,

 

I think that part of the problem that I was vexing me, was with the length of the link. If the length is similar to the width, i.e. almost round, then the right number of links looks wrong, as the link looks too big. What I was after was a long skinny link as below.

 

Long link.jpg

Loads one.jpg

Edited by Headstock
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5 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

I'm looking for something not so fine and with longer links for my particular prototype. I had become something of a link counter, based on the photographs that I had collected. The results I got were pretty consistent, no less than twenty four and never more than thirty links of chain would reach from one side of a typical bolster wagon to the other. This seemed to be confirmed by a couple of loading and securing drawings. They worked out at twenty seven links of chain would be required to cross the wagon in a straight line. Obviously, more links would be required depending on the size of the load. Currently I have got no further in converting this into real world chain, the whole descriptions surrounding these products is annoyingly confusing.

 

Hi Andrew,

 

according to information in "British Railway Wagons - Their Loads and Loading" by Grant & Taylor, the use of chains on the outside of the wagon for fastening down large loads could extend the loading gauge by 3" either side which would make for a scale 1mm wide link and, by measuring the drawing of the secured load you posted, the length of each link would be 6" or 2mm in length.

 

I measured the width of the bolster wagon I used in my earlier image and it comes in at 31mm so for 24 links to cross side to side each link would need to be 1.3mm and for 30 links then the length would be 1mm or so. If you then use these figures you get a lpi of 19.5 for 24 links and 24.5 lpi for 30 links.

 

The issue I found was that all you get as a guide is the links per inch (lpi) figure but this doesn't give any indication of the width for each link - indeed as you say a lot of chains are round rather than oval so the 19.5 lpi chain is correct in width but too wide and the 24.5 lpi chain would be correct in with but not length.

 

Unfortunately I couldn't find any scale chain with 1 x 2mm links, the nearest I could find match wise was again from the world of model boats - made by a company called aero-naut part number 5627/04, each link is approx 1mm wide by 1.3mm long. I've taken a picture of it draped across the BBA wagon and by a rough count there are approx 24 links.

 

I sourced this from: https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/aeronaut-chain.html

 

1333725011_20lpichain.jpg.0505b19ff09eb1d45523b94e5fa864fa.jpg

 

359694296_20lpichaininsitu.jpg.a8b44dd4151cc9c5179b0965e7bafe60.jpg

 

By the way on the loading drawing you posted earlier it would appear that the first link attached to the D shackle is larger than the rest of the chain links.

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1 hour ago, SP Steve said:

 

Hi Andrew,

 

according to information in "British Railway Wagons - Their Loads and Loading" by Grant & Taylor, the use of chains on the outside of the wagon for fastening down large loads could extend the loading gauge by 3" either side which would make for a scale 1mm wide link and, by measuring the drawing of the secured load you posted, the length of each link would be 6" or 2mm in length.

 

I measured the width of the bolster wagon I used in my earlier image and it comes in at 31mm so for 24 links to cross side to side each link would need to be 1.3mm and for 30 links then the length would be 1mm or so. If you then use these figures you get a lpi of 19.5 for 24 links and 24.5 lpi for 30 links.

 

The issue I found was that all you get as a guide is the links per inch (lpi) figure but this doesn't give any indication of the width for each link - indeed as you say a lot of chains are round rather than oval so the 19.5 lpi chain is correct in width but too wide and the 24.5 lpi chain would be correct in with but not length.

 

Unfortunately I couldn't find any scale chain with 1 x 2mm links, the nearest I could find match wise was again from the world of model boats - made by a company called aero-naut part number 5627/04, each link is approx 1mm wide by 1.3mm long. I've taken a picture of it draped across the BBA wagon and by a rough count there are approx 24 links.

 

I sourced this from: https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/aeronaut-chain.html

 

1333725011_20lpichain.jpg.0505b19ff09eb1d45523b94e5fa864fa.jpg

 

359694296_20lpichaininsitu.jpg.a8b44dd4151cc9c5179b0965e7bafe60.jpg

 

By the way on the loading drawing you posted earlier it would appear that the first link attached to the D shackle is larger than the rest of the chain links.

 

Steve,

 

thank you very much for your informative post. I have not been idle and may have a better type of chain, coincidentally, it gets closer to your figures, one example being 1.4mmx 2mm.

 

I discounted the larger link on the drawing, as my prototype is chained slightly differently and within the body of the vehicle, though the wagons is slightly wider than your prototype at 32mm in 4mm scale.

 

Update

 

Having counted up the links neatly laid out on the sixteen foot well of a Lowmac, I come to a figure of forty six links. This is within the margin of error, to be very close to your figure of 24 links across the bed of your bogie bolster and my original lower estimate based on photographs. This would be approximately 4 inches per link.

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As promised, the Ambis chains.  These are ready blackened and come in a pack of roughly 18" (apparently - I haven't taken them out and measured them).  The links look oval to me, though perhaps more rounded than the prototype.  From 3' and in motion, no-one is ever going to tell.

 

chain.jpg.c44f4b3e96e64a26e2d0637b2d10f12b.jpg

 

 

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I remembered that Nbrasslocos do a fine chain.  See: https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitall.html

£2.80 for 300mm.  At 48 links per inch seems too fine for chaining down loads, given information in earlier posts, but might have some other uses?  
 

I also see that they do load securing chains in both 2mm and 4mm scales.  For latter see:

https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/oovaried.html#other.   £2.80 for two sets.

 

No connection but I probably have both in the “that might be useful” collection.

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5 hours ago, jwealleans said:

As promised, the Ambis chains.  These are ready blackened and come in a pack of roughly 18" (apparently - I haven't taken them out and measured them).  The links look oval to me, though perhaps more rounded than the prototype.  From 3' and in motion, no-one is ever going to tell.

 

chain.jpg.c44f4b3e96e64a26e2d0637b2d10f12b.jpg

 

 

 

I'm still a little confused. Chain, chain everywhere and not a drop to link. I'm beginning to recall why there has been so little progress on the steel train since the summer. To give me some context, which if either, was used on your expellant looking Conflats and containers?

 

With regard to the three foot go faster thing.  As I keep telling TW, I've tried modelling from three foot away, whilst the kit is in motion. However, I just don't have the skills to do it. I'm freeze framed to the bench I'm afraid, under the one foot rule, or is that tier six?

 

Is there a model railway law against using something like this, don't laugh?

 

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/91853937/wholesale-gold-fill-paper-clip-chain?ref=search_recently_viewed-6&variation0=1642280138&variation1=1439329835

 

and a 1.4mm x 2mm length raw brass version.

 

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/517282689/14x2mm-raw-brass-chain-raw-brass-curb?ref=pla_similar_listings_top_ad-1&plkey=7a52d5ee866194062855d2fb48d71dec26a9499d%3A517282689&pro=1&variation0=562127320

 

 

It looks pretty cool to me.

 

 

Edited by Headstock
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8 hours ago, Headstock said:

With regard to the three foot go faster thing.  As I keep telling TW, I've tried modelling from three foot away, whilst the kit is in motion. However, I just don't have the skills to do it.

Oh, that's good! That's going on the wall above my bench. And possibly on my tombstone.  

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