Freight on London Underground - late 1960s?

[Broadway Clive]

My good friend Jim Buckland worked for a while as a signal "cabin boy" at Finchley Central in 1962 and remembers freight to Mill Hill East and Edgware (BR) sometimes containing one or two Fyffes bannana vans and wagons carrying military vehicles as well as the usual coal wagons that were the main traffic for both the Edgware and High Barnet branches. BR steam as well as diesel were used, and the coal trains, lasted a bit longer than planned due to winter snow lying in the coal yards till the spring of 1963.

[alfsboy]

I lived at  Fairlop  on the Central line and listened to steam locomotives at night when I was kid  .i didnt see them but BR J15's freight trains  went via Newbury Park from the Seven Kings main line  and took coal trucks to Barkingside and maybe others .Barkingside had a proper coal depot .The whole line was ex GE /LNER .

[Fenway Park]

Just found this thread and I thought N2s were banned through Snow Hill as they were too heavy.

[EddieB]

This is a subject I'd like to know more about, as far as the eastern end of the Central Line is concerned.

 

I remember being informed that there was a connection from Temple Mills at Leyton which allowed BR locos to run on LUL tracks.  Until steam finished, I undersatnd that there was a daily pick-up goods hauled by a J15 that ran at least as far as Loughton (where I have a photograph given to me of a J15 in the goods yard/site of original terminus station - 65453 on 10/06/1961).  Apparently I was fascinated by seeing a steam loco at Woodford - but if true, I would have been a baby and sadly have no recollection.

 

The reference to diesels on the branch is fascinating.  I was unaware that such services existed after dieselisation, but remember being intrigued, when having placed an order for something at a record shop in Woodford Bridge, they said they would receive it delivered as freight to Woodford station (that would be the late 'sixties).

 

[edit]

 

I see from the Middleton Press book ("Branch Line to Ongar") that use of the Seven Kings-Newbury Park "chord" ceased on 19th March 1956 and goods traffic on the whole of the Central Line (Ongar and Fairlop) finished on 18th April 1966 (slightly earlier than I thought). (This suggests an earlier date for the picture in David Clough's book - the BTH type 1 [class 15] being the regular motive power). The connection at Leyton closed in May 1971.

 

Intriguingly, the MP book also speaks of excursion trains and "regular early morning" British Railways passenger trains to and from Liverpool Street and Stratford using the Leyton link until their withdrawal on 31st May 1970 (when they were being worked by DMUs). I wasn't aware of such trains and again would be interested in further details or to know whether photographs exist.

 

The last use of steam appears to be J15 65476 working the LCGB "Great Eastern Suburban Railtour No. 2" to Ongar on 28th April 1962 (the same.locomotive having worked the same section of the "No 1" tour three weeks previously.

Edited January 25, 2015 by EddieB

[LULFAN]

This is a subject I'd like to know more about, as far as the eastern end of the Central Line is concerned.

 

I remember being informed that there was a connection from Temple Mills at Leyton which allowed BR locos to run on LUL tracks.  Until steam finished, I undersatnd that there was a daily pick-up goods hauled by a J15 that ran at least as far as Loughton (where I have a photograph given to me of a J15 in the goods yard/site of original terminus station - 65453 on 10/06/1961).  Apparently I was fascinated by seeing a steam loco at Woodford - but if true, I would have been a baby and sadly have no recollection.

 

The reference to diesels on the branch is fascinating.  I was unaware that such services existed after dieselisation, but remember being intrigued, when having placed an order for something at a record shop in Woodford Bridge, they said they would receive it delivered as freight to Woodford station (that would be the late 'sixties).

 

[edit]

 

I see from the Middleton Press book ("Branch Line to Ongar") that use of the Seven Kings-Newbury Park "chord" ceased on 19th March 1956 and goods traffic on the whole of the Central Line (Ongar and Fairlop) finished on 18th April 1966 (slightly earlier than I thought). (This suggests an earlier date for the picture in David Clough's book - the BTH type 1 [class 15] being the regular motive power). The connection at Leyton closed in May 1971.

 

Intriguingly, the MP book also speaks of excursion trains and "regular early morning" British Railways passenger trains to and from Liverpool Street and Stratford using the Leyton link until their withdrawal on 31st May 1970 (when they were being worked by DMUs). I wasn't aware of such trains and again would be interested in further details or to know whether photographs exist.

 

The last use of steam appears to be J15 65476 working the LCGB "Great Eastern Suburban Railtour No. 2" to Ongar on 28th April 1962 (the same.locomotive having worked the same section of the "No 1" tour three weeks previously.

In a early edition of London railway record I think there is a pic of a DMU at woodford, and in a On-line LT video there is a short clip of a steam loco again at woodford

 

I was born in Leytonstone in 1956 and I do remember being taken to the Grove Green Rd side of the LT station (the 236 bus stop side) to be shown an afternoon steam goods running up from Leyton.

 

I do remember the posters at Leytonstone about the ending of the early morning DMU service to Liverpool Street B.R

 

The 60's Underground guides do show the DMU service (passengers must be in possession of tickets) and BR timetables show the DMU's as starting at stratford no mention of coming from  the LT branch.

 

Somewhere on the net is a website about signal boxes and the Leyton box has a mention, it also talks about the eastbound platform at Leyton used as a heatshunt for Leyton goods/ coal dept and all LT trains to and from London using the westbound platform while shunting took place

 

I guess the 2 long loops tween Leyton and Leytonstone were used to hold goods trains till a path was free

 

A guy I used to know was a bit older than me and he remembered getting a train from South Woodford to somewhere like Ramsgate on a summer Sunday

 

The train ran down to LP Street BR reversed and ran over the ELL and over the southern 

 

The whole subject of goods over LT tracks  would make a great book

Edited January 26, 2015 by LULFAN

[EddieB]

It's probably worth adding that, besides the J15s, Willie Yeadon gives numbers and dates of trip cock gear for classes F5, F6, J68, J69 and N7 in his Registers and also in the RCTS Green Books.  Numerous ex-GNR N1s were also so fitted, but numbers aren't given in the Green Book (and I don't have the relevant Volume 25 of Yeadon's Register to check).

 

From a discusion elsewhere, there has been recollection of a couple of excursion to Brighton - one around 1960 (with an unidentified N7) and one later in the decade (with an unidentified BTH type 1).  Sadly none of these excursion trains has made its way to the Six Bells website.

[bécasse]

I saw an ex-GE excursion at New Cross Gate waiting in the early/mid-1950s to change locomotives. It was headed by a pair of condensing gear fitted J67/69s and I believe that these were the more normal loco power in steam days than a N7.

[PhilJ W]

Were not the Liverpool Street pilots equipped with trip cocks?

[EddieB]

Were not the Liverpool Street pilots equipped with trip cocks?

 

I saw an ex-GE excursion at New Cross Gate waiting in the early/mid-1950s to change locomotives. It was headed by a pair of condensing gear fitted J67/69s and I believe that these were the more normal loco power in steam days than a N7.

 

Were not the Liverpool Street pilots equipped with trip cocks?

 

I think it was something of a "chicken and egg" situation. The famously bulled-up East Side pilot J69 68619 was drawn from the ranks of those fitted with trip cocks, but the West Side pilot N7 69614 does not appear to have been so fitted.  68619 was rostered for the RCTS "Great Eastern Suburban Railtour" of 12th November 1960 (assisted by 69687 for a short stretch) when it went no further than Loughton Branch Junction (Temple Mills).

 

From photographic evidence, it would appear that N7s were the normal power on Epping and Ongar passenger services in the immediate post-war years and while electrification proceeded.  While some had been fitted with trip cocks earlier (removed) and some gained them later, it doesn't appear that they were regarded as a necessity during the transition years.

 

There's an interesting article here (starting on p2) http://www.theydon.org.uk/lhs/Downloads/LHS%20News%20178.pdf.  It implies that DMUs working the staff trains on the Epping branch were not fitted with trip cocks.

[bécasse]

The DMUs that worked early morning services to Epping weren't just staff trains (although it is possible that the first departure each way was). I remember crossing the high-level walkway at Liverpool Street Station en route to Walthamstow Central to catch the very first Victoria Line train back in 1968 and there was a DMU sitting in one of the platforms with EPPING on both its blind and on the station departure indicator, so it was very definitely available for public use throughout.

 

LT staff trains weren't even available to LT staff unless one was in possession of a special Staff Train Permit rather than just the usual "sticky" or Staff Pass, in general they ran just before and just after the public service on each line.

[LULFAN]

The DMUs that worked early morning services to Epping weren't just staff trains (although it is possible that the first departure each way was). I remember crossing the high-level walkway at Liverpool Street Station en route to Walthamstow Central to catch the very first Victoria Line train back in 1968 and there was a DMU sitting in one of the platforms with EPPING on both its blind and on the station departure indicator, so it was very definitely available for public use throughout.

 

LT staff trains weren't even available to LT staff unless one was in possession of a special Staff Train Permit rather than just the usual "sticky" or Staff Pass, in general they ran just before and just after the public service on each line.

 

come 1974+ a "special Staff Train Permit" was not need to travel on a staff train just the staff pass if not in uniform , just as well the Hainalt > Leytonstone staff train saved me a fortune in taxi fares after seeing my G/F back home after a night out

Edited January 28, 2015 by LULFAN

[lmsforever]

I was born in Newbury Park in 1944 and when the tube started running we used to watch them enter the tunnels and we also frieghts coming up from Ilford not very often but they did arrive from time to time.

[L49]

I think it was something of a "chicken and egg" situation. The famously bulled-up East Side pilot J69 68619 was drawn from the ranks of those fitted with trip cocks, but the West Side pilot N7 69614 does not appear to have been so fitted.  68619 was rostered for the RCTS "Great Eastern Suburban Railtour" of 12th November 1960 (assisted by 69687 for a short stretch) when it went no further than Loughton Branch Junction (Temple Mills).

 

From photographic evidence, it would appear that N7s were the normal power on Epping and Ongar passenger services in the immediate post-war years and while electrification proceeded.  While some had been fitted with trip cocks earlier (removed) and some gained them later, it doesn't appear that they were regarded as a necessity during the transition years.

 

There's an interesting article here (starting on p2) http://www.theydon.org.uk/lhs/Downloads/LHS%20News%20178.pdf.  It implies that DMUs working the staff trains on the Epping branch were not fitted with trip cocks.

 

I seem to recall from somewhere that special signalling was in use on the eastern end of the Central to alleviate the need to work with trip cocks, or at least to give greater warning to unfitted BR freight trains when approaching stop signals. I think these took the form of a yellow shunt style disc, but with the end of the black bar chevroned to show that it was to be read as a distant signal and not as a standard yellow shunt. I think a photo appeared of one in an early issue of the London Railway Record.

[Chris116]

In the late 50's and early 60's the milk train to/from Vauxhall ran from Wimbledon via East Putney so as to be on the right side of the tracks when arriving/departing Vauxhall. It was steam hauled until about 1962 or 1963 after which I lost interest in it! I got in trouble at school for being more interested in the steam train than the lessons and when I was at home never missed its pasing as our house backed onto the District line just south of Southfields.

 

Chris

[bécasse]

The "goods distants" were installed on the Northern Line at Finchley Central and north thereof, as well as on the Central Line.

[roythebus]

The disc type distant signals were also installed on the Met local lines north of Harrow on the Hill.

 

Did we mention the mercury-filled tubes on here? These would also have been fitted at Finchley Central to put the signals at danger if a mainline size train should take a wrong 'un and tried to go to Highgate Low Level!

 

Edited to add the Vauxhall milk train was still steam-hauled as late as 1966, I used to watch it when I should have been playing school football in Southfields Park, adjoining the line. It usually went past at about 2.30 pm.

Edited February 3, 2015 by roythebus

[bécasse]

It is an interesting question whether mercury-filled tubes were provided at Finchley Central. I don't remember them there but that doesn't meant that they weren't provided.

 

However, apart from advising the Electrical Control Room Supervisor that disaster was about to happen, I can't see that they would have been of any use there in keeping main-line loading gauge trains out of the tube tunnels since the "big" trains would have been steam, or later diesel, hauled. The provision of the mercury-filled tubes elsewhere, Barons Court for example, had the purpose of keeping LT surface-stock trains out of the tube tunnels and they did it by cutting off the traction supply if they were broken by the passage of an out-of-gauge train.

[Broadway Clive]

It is an interesting question whether mercury-filled tubes were provided at Finchley Central. I don't remember them there but that doesn't meant that they weren't provided.

 

However, apart from advising the Electrical Control Room Supervisor that disaster was about to happen, I can't see that they would have been of any use there in keeping main-line loading gauge trains out of the tube tunnels since the "big" trains would have been steam, or later diesel, hauled. The provision of the mercury-filled tubes elsewhere, Barons Court for example, had the purpose of keeping LT surface-stock trains out of the tube tunnels and they did it by cutting off the traction supply if they were broken by the passage of an out-of-gauge train.

 

Not quite right Brian, the mercury tubes here were at East Finchley and cut power to signals so they all 'failed' safe to red with train stops raised. You couldnt stop even an electric train by turning off traction current as drivers were taught to coast to the next station if power was lost. Below is from London's Underground by H F Howson. Of course BR  locos were meant to have trip cocks fitted to work over LT, and there were trip cock testers at the various entry points to ensure it was down and to gauge. However, I've read a number of accounts from steam loco crew that it was often left isolated and non operative, oweing to the difficulty for firemen of going onto the track to reset it inside tunnels. Of course, drivers of LT trains were provided with a trip reset cord which came right up near the front door. Still in practise the red signals should suffice with two men in the cab!

Edited February 4, 2015 by Broadway Clive

[LULFAN]

Not quite right Brian, the mercury tubes here were at East Finchley and cut power to signals so they all 'failed' safe to red with train stops raised. You couldnt stop even an electric train by turning off traction current as drivers were taught to coast to the next station if power was lost. Below is from London's Underground by H F Howson. Of course BR  locos were meant to have trip cocks fitted to work over LT, and there were trip cock testers at the various entry points to ensure it was down and to gauge. However, I've read a number of accounts from steam loco crew that it was often left isolated and non operative, oweing to the difficulty for firemen of going onto the track to reset it inside tunnels. Of course, drivers of LT trains were provided with a trip reset cord which came right up near the front door. Still in practise the red signals should suffice with two men in the cab!

mercury.jpg

Does anyone know what was done at Leytonstone eastbound if anything to stop goods trains being sent down the tunnel to Wansted?

Edited February 5, 2015 by LULFAN

[PhilJ W]

Does anyone know what was done at Leytonstone eastbound if anything to stop goods trains being sent down the tunnel to Wansted?

There was also the connection at Newbury Park that was in operation until 1956. Unfortunately my books on the subject do not mention how they were protected.

[Broadway Clive]

Does anyone know what was done at Leytonstone eastbound if anything to stop goods trains being sent down the tunnel to Wansted?

My old LT friends have reminded me that the protection at Leyton, Leytonstone and Newbury Park was by electfric train detectors, consisting of an isolated piece of current rail that had to be touched by a train's positive shoe before the starter signal could be cleared for the tunnel. (Both v+ shoes are connected on each car so the section of rail when touched by a shoe would become live to trigger the release).     

[PhilJ W]

My old LT friends have reminded me that the protection at Leyton, Leytonstone and Newbury Park was by electfric train detectors, consisting of an isolated piece of current rail that had to be touched by a train's positive shoe before the starter signal could be cleared for the tunnel. (Both v+ shoes are connected on each car so the section of rail when touched by a shoe would become live to trigger the release).     

That should be easy to model, any idea how long the piece of current rail was?

[Broadway Clive]

That should be easy to model, any idea how long the piece of current rail was?

Thinking more about it Phil, I would guess it must have been on the opposite side of the track to the live rail and no longer than necessary - say 10 feet? One of my friends reckons to have some old track plans for Leyton stored away so if he digs them out there might be some more information there and if so I'll pass it on.

[PhilJ W]

Thinking more about it Phil, I would guess it must have been on the opposite side of the track to the live rail and no longer than necessary - say 10 feet? One of my friends reckons to have some old track plans for Leyton stored away so if he digs them out there might be some more information there and if so I'll pass it on.

I'm sure I've seen a photograph with that on it but needless to say I can't remember where.

[LULFAN]

I'm sure I've seen a photograph with that on it but needless to say I can't remember where.

 

 

Does this help?

 

http://www.signalbox.org/gallery/e/leyton.php