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If you find any photos please let me know! I know of about 15 in all  and several of these are of roll wagons and iron minks, and some are in GWR days. Here is the list I have at the moment. It will be included in an article on RR wagons I am slowly writing for the HMRS Journal.

 

Those that I know of are as follows:

 3 plank box wagon no 580 (HMRS photo AAK 511)

15T 7 plank loco coal wagon no 526 (HMRS photo AAK502, also “Great Western Way’, 1st edition, p 223, and Welsh Railways Archive, Vol 5, No 8, p189)

A Hurry Riches van on the K&ESR (published in Welsh Railways Archive)

Body of Hurry Riches van at ???? (Welsh Railways Archive, Vol 2, p 24)

Body of Hurry Riches van at ???? (Chopping, P: ‘Is this wagon significant?’, HMRS Journal, 1993, Vol 14, p304)

Vans and box wagons in yard (Hutton J: “The Rhymney Railway. Volume 2 Branch lines in the valleys” (Silver Link Publishing, 2004), p38)

Van  615 in background (Midland Record preview issue, p 50)

Former RR goods van no 84 as GWR 47736 (HMRS photo AAJ817)

Former RR Hurry Riches van no 577 as ex GWR riding van 77 (Welsh Railways Archive, Vol 2, p 119)

RR wagon no 856 as GWR Loriot K no 42276 (Russell, J H: “A pictorial record of Great Western Wagons”, (Oxford Publishing Co, 1971), p49)

RR Roll wagon no 326 as GWR no 36976 (Russell, J H: “A pictorial record of Great Western Wagons”, (Oxford Publishing Co, 1971), p38)

RR Roll wagon no 454 as GWR no 32114 (Russell, J H: “A pictorial record of Great Western Wagons”, (Oxford Publishing Co, 1971), p39; also Russell, J H: “Great Western Wagons appendix” (Oxford Publishing Co, 1974, p115)

RR Roll wagon no 452 as GWR no 21999(Russell, J H: “A pictorial record of Great Western Wagons”, (Oxford Publishing Co, 1971), p39)

RR Roll wagon no 299 as GWR no 32127 (Russell, J H: “Great Western Wagons appendix” (Oxford Publishing Co, 1974, p115)

There is also a photo in Hutton J: “The Rhymney Railway. Volume 2 Branch lines in the valleys” (Silver Link Publishing, 2004), p xx, which may be of some of the iron ore and rail wagons at Cardiff docks.

 

By the mid 1900s Rhymney Railway wagons were pretty modern with proper two sided brakes and brake blocks on all wheels. They used quite a lot of Dean-Churchward brakes. Hurry-Riches introduced a range of wagons 18ft long with 9ft 9in wheelbase (real fun when it comes to modelling the brake gear). Drawings of a van and an open are in the WRRC book you have. There is of course a kit for the van. There were several other designs. Later (after 1912) the company reverted to shorter wagons.

 

I have redrawn several of the Metropolitan Wagon Co drawings and they have been published in Welsh Railways Archive, along with some from other sources. Some were the early wagons you have seen on this thread but there are also more modern ones. The list of Metropolitan Wagon Co drawings of Rhymney prototypes is as follows (the drawing numbers are the Birmingham City Library references but the drawings are also available from the HMRS.

Drawing          Date                Library

No.                                          Reference

 

919                  14-6-1894        16/68   `           Mineral brake van

1031                13-2-1871        27/27               Timber or lowside truck

1066                6-3-1872          27/54               10t coal wagon

3367                14-5-1881        10/19               Mineral brake van no 29. Order no 68A.

          Open veranda 9-0 wheelbase. Fair quality reproduction

3368                10-5-1881        10/20               10t 2plank iron ore or rail wagon no 270. Drawing amended 19-7-1881. Wheelbase originally shown as 9-0 but amended to                                                                               8-4. Single bolster. Tie bar between W irons. Long indirect brake lever. Reproduction good but blotchy.

5298                31-8-1877        28/19               10t 5 plank end and side door coal wagon. Side of wagon marked “Loco

Coal No 144” but number on solebar plate is 264. Dumb buffers one end. Large wooden brake blocks. Wheelbase 8-4. Tie bar between W irons. Long indirect brake lever.

6566                14-2-1891        30/32               8t covered goods wagon no 610. Order 888. Wheelbase 9-0. Tie bar between W irons. Long indirect brake lever.

6970                9-12-1893        30/61               Third class 6 compartment 6 wheel carriage no 65. Wheelbase 9-6. Reproduction fair/poor

6971                4-12-1893        30/62               Third class brake and passenger luggage van. 4 passenger compartments, 1 guard and 1 passenger luggage. Wheelbase                                                                               9-6. Reproduction fair/poor

8014                14-6-1894        7/12                 Mineral brake van

8054    `           25-10-1894      7/17                 10t open box wagon

9548                4-1-1898          24/24               Brake and passenger luggage van (this drawing is unusable as there is a large drawing of a sacrew coupling on top of it!)

13426              28-1-1907        4/52                 Steam motor carriage. General arrangement drawing only but shows internal seating. Reproduction good.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Jonathan David (HMRS Rhymney Railway steward)

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Funny you should mention 18' wagons with 9'9" wheelbase - the Cambrian Loco Coal wagons fit that bill too! When I eventually get drawings for it I'll be recreating a few. Another one I need to inverstigate further is the Cambrian's single bolster wagon with Morton brakes - with both handles at one end. (How would that even work?)

 

Gotta love the variety of pre group wagons! 

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There were plenty of wagons with both brake handles the same end. I have examples from several companies including LYR and LNWR. It works the same as the Morton brake but without the need for a clutch on one side. Of course, GWR DC1 brakes were the same. It was only the changing regulations that caused them to be altered, though some lasted a lot longer than they should have.

 

And 9ft 9 in wheelbase on an 18 ft chassis was also quite common. Apart from being an RCH standard from the early 20th century (but it didn't prove very popular) it was used a lot by the LNWR and several other companies.

 

I'll be interested to see the Cambrian bolster wagons when they are finished. I am working on a pair of the ex Mid Wales Railway dumb buffered type from an HMRS drawing. The HMRS now has a drawing of a Cambrian version which I shall be following up in due course when I pick up the drawing from Butterley. Is this the one you are referring to? Were the Morton brakes a later alteration?

 

Jonathan

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...Another one I need to inverstigate further is the Cambrian's single bolster wagon with Morton brakes - with both handles at one end. (How would that even work?)

 

Why do you say it is a Morton brake? It sounds like simple lever brakes to me. The essence of a Morton brake is the pair of pawls at one end of a cross-shaft that serve two purposes. Firstly, they reverse the direction of rotation of the shaft at one end so that a pair of right-hand levers can operate the brakes on one side. Secondly, they provide a clutch mechanism so that the levers may operate independently. With two simple levers at the same end, the normal arrangement is for them to be independant brakes with shoes on each side operated by their own lever. No cross-shaft is used.

 

There were plenty of wagons with both brake handles the same end. I have examples from several companies including LYR and LNWR. It works the same as the Morton brake but without the need for a clutch on one side...

 

There are plenty of independant examples, but how would that work? The Morton reversing pawls wouldn't be needed, of course, but how do you depress one lever whilst the other is still in it;s rest position. The lever would not move if there is a rigid connection between each lever and a cross-shaft. There would need to be something like a single Morton pawl to provide the necessary clutch action to allow the levers to move independently. Maybe such a thing existed, though I've never seen one. If you have an example, please post it so that we can understand how it works.

 

Nick

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You are right Nick. I have been thinking about it since I posted - all the examples I can think of among my model wagons have two separate brakes and it is not possible in any of the photos to see clearly whether there is a cross shaft. Conceivably the two levers could have been fixed rigidly to a cross shaft so when you depressed one to put the brake on the other also moved, but I don't think that was likely (but see below). The DC1 brake was different with quite a complicated set of linkages. I am not sure if the two levers moved together but as they were either end of the same shaft I think they did - but they were small.

 

Mind you, since the "far" Morton brake lever was fixed to the cross shaft and thus rigidly connected both to one part of the Morton clutch and to the link which actually pushed the brake push rods (have I lost you yet?), as far as I can see, when the brake lever on the clutch side was depressed, it must have rotated the shaft and this depressed the lever on the far side. Which is back to where we started as I can't really believe that this could have been the case. On the other hand, as far as I can see a second clutch of some kind would have been necessary if the "far" lever was not to be depressed when the clutch side lever was used.

 

I must also correct an error in my last post. I thought one of my kits with both the brake levers the same end was LNWR but it was also L&Y. There is a section on the brake in the L&Y wagons book volume 1 and numerous photos. But other companies which used the arrangement were the SE&CR and GNR. I have identified vehicles for both (and have kits)..

 

Jonathan

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You are right Nick. I have been thinking about it since I posted - all the examples I can think of among my model wagons have two separate brakes and it is not possible in any of the photos to see clearly whether there is a cross shaft. Conceivably the two levers could have been fixed rigidly to a cross shaft so when you depressed one to put the brake on the other also moved, but I don't think that was likely (but see below)...

Yes, most lever brakes have a method of retaining the lever in the off position because otherwise the weight of the lever would hold the brakes lightly on. It would be impossible to depress the lever on one side if the other were held in the off position.

 

...The DC1 brake was different with quite a complicated set of linkages. I am not sure if the two levers moved together but as they were either end of the same shaft I think they did - but they were small...

Yes, both levers were attached to the shaft and moved together. Apart from being at the same end, this also infringed the BoT requirement that the brake should only be able to be released from the same side as it was applied.

 

...Mind you, since the "far" Morton brake lever was fixed to the cross shaft and thus rigidly connected both to one part of the Morton clutch and to the link which actually pushed the brake push rods (have I lost you yet?), as far as I can see, when the brake lever on the clutch side was depressed, it must have rotated the shaft and this depressed the lever on the far side. Which is back to where we started as I can't really believe that this could have been the case. On the other hand, as far as I can see a second clutch of some kind would have been necessary if the "far" lever was not to be depressed when the clutch side lever was used...

Ah, but the lever on the other side wasn't rigidly fixed to the cross-shaft. There was another pair of pawls at this end to prevent any force on the lever when the opposite lever was depressed. They are small and concentric so rarely seen on photos, but near the bottom of the wagon brakes page on gwr.org.uk there is an excellent photo with the caption "The small and neat primary side lost motion clutch on a Morton brake".

 

Nick

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The picture of the odd Cambrian bolster is in Great Western way, although it's a bit underexposed in my copy. The Mike Lloyd collection has the same photo, but brighter and a lot softer, which clearly shows the brake details. The drawing thumbnail at the NRM also confirms the presence of the weird brake gear, though I still need to see the full version for the explanation of it.  I'm not sure which wagons are shown in the HMRS drawings. 

 

I have got some on order, I can't remember of what now though! 

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Of those sources, I only have GWW and, as you say, the photo is none too clear. I wonder if there is a a concentric clutch similar to that in the gwr.org.uk photo on each side?

 

Nick

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Thanks Nick for the explanation of the concentric clutch on the "far": side. All is now clear. I had looked at quite a few photos and a diagram in the LYR wagons book but had not realised it was there.

 

I have been looking at the Cambrian photo in GWW (only the landscape format edition). It does look as though there may be a clutch each side as both levers are slightly above the cross shaft, unless I am mistaken - certainly for the nearer wagon, Anyway. Interesting. I am pretty sure the LYR  "both levers the same end" wagons did not have this feature. I shall be interested to see the HMRS drawing when I get it. I think the WRRC also has a copy though it is difficult to tell from my list of Mike Lloyd drawings.

 

By the way, I have now found out that the name for the brakes on the iron ore and rail wagons and the horse box in my earlier posts is apparently a "toggle brake" - figure 30 in LNWR wagons volume 1. I had begun to think it was just a Rhymney oddity.

 

Also, adding to post 26, I have looked again at Hutton vol 1 page 86 and they are definitely RR wagons. Unfortunately, the nearest one, an iron ore and rail wagon, has the toggle brake on the far side (I assume). I think the fourth wagon is also one but again the brakes are the other side. 

 

There is another photo which is claimed to contain some RR wagons but to my mind it is not clear enough to be certain. It is the well known turn of the 20th century postcard of Bedlinog (eg Mitchell and Smith, Cardiff to Dowlais (Cae Harris) plate 104, Hutton vol 2 page 51 top). And that is not the signal box!

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..... a "toggle brake" - figure 30 in LNWR wagons volume 1. 

Fig 30? - My copy doesn't have Fig. references.

Edited by Penlan

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Odd! Mine does, but only in chapter 2 which has all the component drawings etc. Fig 30 is at the top of page 49 (itself unnumbered) in the middle of the section on types of brake.

 

I assume we are talking about the same book, the one published by Wild Swan with the LNWR Society in 2001.

 

Jonathan

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Back on left handed brakes again, I have come across an item in an early issue of Welsh Railways Archive describing a brake patented by the Taff Vale Railway's Hurry Riches. It has both levers the same end and is designed so that the left handed lever is on the same side as the brake shoes. It specifically says that both brake levers were rigidly attached to the cross shaft and moved together. I have no idea whether the system was ever used on more than one wagon but apparently that wagon was photographed.

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If both brake levers were fixed to the cross shaft it would mean that the brakes could not be applied unless both levers were lifted out of the ledge on the guides. Wagons with both levers at the same end had a Morton clutch at both ends of the cross shaft, allowing each lever to apply the brakes independently.

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I think that the patented feature of the brake gear was a special latch for the brake levers in the guide. The text on the drawing in WRA says "The brake lever B securely fixed to the ends of the cross shaft B2 so both work together". Without the drawing it is a bit difficult to explain, but there was a latch mechanism attached to the brake lever which engaged in the toothed rack. It also says later "To take brake off either lever depressed down sufficiently to allow rocker arm to disengage from the rack, lever then free to release brake". It looks as though the latching mechanism had to be set manually when the brake was put on. The other lever would then presumably have been free to move. Fortunately I don't need to build any TVR coal wagons!

 

The patent was no 8095 of 1900 and the brake gear was photographed on TVR coal wagon no 4598. It says GWR photos of m4598 nos OW18, OW19 and OW20 but these numbers mean nothing to me.

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If both brake levers were fixed to the cross shaft it would mean that the brakes could not be applied unless both levers were lifted out of the ledge on the guides. Wagons with both levers at the same end had a Morton clutch at both ends of the cross shaft, allowing each lever to apply the brakes independently.

 

That explains the Cambrian wagon at least.  

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There were a lot of 'patent' arrangements around the turn of the twentieth century, because the BoT was looking to implement new laws concerning railway wagon brakes. While there are plenty of photos around showing these arrangements, I have grave doubts whether most of them were at all common, or even practical.

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I said earlier that I thought the Metropolitan Wagon co iron ore and rail wagons had fized ends because of the line of bolts on the drawing.

 

I have now looked at three photos in Montague's Gloucester wagons book and have changed my mind.

 

Plates 45 and 46 show Blaenavon Company wagons for the same purpose (though I rather like the curved sides). It is appears from these photos that the ends can be folded down.as there is a distinct shadow beneath the end which seems slightly recessed. Also on wagon 502 the end could be a plate rather than planks. But in both cases there is a line of bolts at the end of the side in a position similar to those on the Metropolitan wagon.

 

On the preceding page plate 40 is an iron bodies wagon but it possible that here the ended can again be hinged down, though in this case I am not sure. It does look though as though the centre part of the end is separate.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I don't fancy rebuilding my three wagons!

 

Jonathan

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Looking at Plates 45 & 46, on 46, there is (just) visible a piece of chain from the top of the end side metal support connecting the solebars with the body, to the top of the lighter piece of vertical metal right on the end of the sides.
45 doesn't appear to have these chains.

What I can't work out is if these latter metal strips, are just that flat metal strips OR are they right angled and go round the ends and keep the end plates in position, the previously mention chains with some form of pin, keeping the end plates in place, when required.

Edited by Penlan

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Another grovel. In post 32 I said the descriptions of brake gear are in the LYR wagons book. I should have said volume 1 LNWR wagons, which is why one correspondent (Penlan, I think) couldn't find them. My apologies.

 

Jonathan

Edited by corneliuslundie

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Here at last are the Mid Wales Railway timber wagons. No lettering because it is quite likely that there wasn't any and no-one really knows. They were built from a Metropolitan Wagon Co drawing obtained from the HMRS. A bit basic - and I mean my modelling rather than the design.

 

I'll probably put any future wagon photos on my Sarn thread under the Railways of Wales. Thanks for your interest and help.

post-13650-0-58863900-1423246429_thumb.jpg

 

Jonathan David

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Corniliuslundie, I came across this photo earlier today - looking for something else - Ebbw Vale wagons at Victoria Wharf, Newport Docks.
There doesn't appear to be a bolster in the middle..

This is an extract from P.A.Peden's photo ref. C1872.

 

Edit - I wonder why they had to chalk the number on the end too - 2238 ?

post-6979-0-71028800-1424612283.jpg

Edited by Penlan
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Very interesting. They can't be more than about 7ft wheelbase. The end looks as if it might be hinged, I'm not certain, but possibly down onto the buffers rather than in - and there doesn't seem to be a recess in the floor at the far end. So perhaps rails were just laid on the floor of the wagons. And with those ends the iron ore load can't have been that great - assuming that they are iron ore and rail wagons. Either that or the ends are actually fixed and the rails lie on them, restrained by the sides so bolsters would not be needed. I wonder if they had any brakes.

 

Jonathan

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As far as I can see the ends hinge down onto the buffers, they are also the same thickness as the floor so once they are down the floor is extended over the buffers. Is that a hole on the floor just above the left hand end hinge? maybe to hold a stanchion to hold rails?

Edited by billbedford

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