Mk2C coach liveries

[Derekstuart]

Bomag,

 

it was a standard open. I don't recall it being a down-graded FO either- not specifically because of the seating arrangement, but for the colours- blue. It had not long been painted outside as I remember thinking it odd that they painted such an old coach in IC* and certainly that they hadn't done the interior.

 

The only thing that I can think of that MIGHT explain an unusual rake was that this was AROUND the time that they stopped splitting the train at Carstairs and instead ran the whole set through to Edinburgh (still at that point with a change of 86/87 to a much nicer 47, but without splitting the rake)- perhaps they were re-organising sets as a result and used this substitute set or collection of spares etc. It was only the once that I saw this.

 

(*IC= it was dark grey, with a white stripe, red stripe and beige underneath. I don't recall whether it said inter-city, intercity or INTERCITY, though as a guess it would not have been the latter- unlikely to be Swallow as it wasn't internally refurbished(.


If of course I AM wrong on this, I would love to know what else it could have been then? It definately had the lowered ceiling that you would find in a 2C- were any of the last 2B's so fitted?

[Flood]

I feel some clarification for Derekstuart  from myself is required.

 

As I stated in post # 20 I don't model after 1988 so my amount of research material is limited.

 

Like Bomag states the summer 1989 Platform 5 book does have 5595 as some form of InterCity livery. I do have the Railway Observers for 1988 and 1989 and a quick 20 minute scan does not show 5595 but this is nothing to go by. The information in the Railway Observer was from enthusiasts that noted differences; some of whom were employed at works and others who stated what they saw day to day. It was easy for incorrect information to be sent in or for something to be missed completely for months.

 

Platform 5 books are also known to produce errors (the 1988 book has all Mk2D TSO stock at Craigentinny as painted in ScotRail when only the Provincial sector ones were and the East Coast sector ones were either blue and grey or InterCity).

 

I like to have more than one source for information and the search through the Railway Observers has shown a small number of Mk2a BFK stock being repainted in 1989 into InterCity so the repainting of 5595 is easily possible.

 

I am therefore going to keep an open mind and it may well be that 5595 was the InterCity coach that you travelled in that day.

[Derekstuart]

A 2A being repainted into intercity? I've never seen that (that means "I've never seen that personally" and NOT "I don't think so"- it's very easy to cause mis-understandings).

 

As Bomag pointed out, 2D's were not common on the WCML. I am GUESSING that after the withdrawal of the Deltic's and their problems powering 2E/F there was no problem with letting 2E/F go East and 2D go West. I wish I'd taken a photo of it as I had a camera with me at the time, but I didn't think a quarter of a Century on that it would be a topic of conversation.

 

As I said earlier, I cannot think of any specific reason for this unusual rake other than the change of procedures at Carstairs.

[mjkerr]

From memory, there were eventually two Mark 2C TSO painted into InterCity executive livery, but they were short lived due to their poor internal condition and lack of maintenance
Sadly I binned all my photos years ago, so can't check which ones they were
However, I suspect one of them was repainted at Polmadie depot to cover up extensive graffiti damage and the other was due to extensive panel damage
I remember seeing the first one (as Mark 2C TSO were used on the Glasgow / Edinburgh - Manchester) then looking inside to see there was no internal change, and it then sat at Polmadie depot for a few weeks

[Derekstuart]

MJKerr, to answer a previous point, did those 2c's ever operate in a set with 2d's? If so then that would explain where the 2d's at Euston came from.

[sub39h]

I dunno if this is any help but when looking for Lima coaches to use as a basis for a conversion I came across a Lima non air con Exec coach with the running number 1883. I know Lima isn't the last word in modelling fidelity but I can't imagine they plucked a number out of thin air?

[keefer]

I think 1883 was the Mk 1 'Bar' coach.

Is this the Lima coach with 'Restaurant' on the side? In which case it's fictional.

[mjkerr]

MJKerr, to answer a previous point, did those 2c's ever operate in a set with 2d's? If so then that would explain where the 2d's at Euston came from.

I assume you mean 2C at Euston, as 2D at Euston would be quite common, especially at weekends (sleepers, substitutes, diversions, etc)

 

PC and WB kept a number of strategic spares, but it was rare for the 2C to be mixed with the 2D

PC had five sets of 2C, four in use with one spare, used between Glasgow / Edinburgh and Manchester

 

I don't know what diagrams the WB based 2C coaches were allocated

However, two rakes operated between Stranraer and Euston, until the end of that service

Pretty much after this service ended the 2C coaches were withdrawn

From memory this is where I eventually saw the InterCity livery carried coaches

[keefer]

I dunno if this is any help but when looking for Lima coaches to use as a basis for a conversion I came across a Lima non air con Exec coach with the running number 1883. I know Lima isn't the last word in modelling fidelity but I can't imagine they plucked a number out of thin air?

Further to my post, I'd completely forgotten about a previous thread:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89668-intercity-mk2-buffet-lima/

[Bomag]

I assume you mean 2C at Euston, as 2D at Euston would be quite common, especially at weekends (sleepers, substitutes, diversions, etc)

 

PC and WB kept a number of strategic spares, but it was rare for the 2C to be mixed with the 2D

PC had five sets of 2C, four in use with one spare, used between Glasgow / Edinburgh and Manchester

 

I don't know what diagrams the WB based 2C coaches were allocated

However, two rakes operated between Stranraer and Euston, until the end of that service

Pretty much after this service ended the 2C coaches were withdrawn

From memory this is where I eventually saw the InterCity livery carried coaches

 

In the relevant period (87-89) I cannot remember a service train with mostly Mk2Ds south of Birmingham. They were all with Anglia, Scotrail, Cross Country and charters. Later on they were daily visitors via Stagecoach on the Sleepers.

[mjkerr]

PC had a very large fleet of 2D coaches, mostly TSO but also BFK
They were typically formed TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO
Two of these would form the service south of Carstairs, typically with a Mark 1 buffet between the two sets (and normally remaining attached to the Edinburgh service north of Carstairs)

 

On a Saturday there was one service southbound to Birmingham, which then continued to Euston
This then returned early on Sunday morning (also routed via Kilmarnock)

This initially took over from the Stranraer service and was not included in the public timetable
It was a bit of an oversight, but was put together due to the continued high demand after Sprinters took over (Stranraer to Newcastle), and at weekends the amount (lack) of First Class was not an issue
 

The other was the daily Edinburgh to London Paddington, again also via Birmingham
This also used one of the PC rakes, but slightly modified as there was no Glasgow portion

[Flood]

PC had a very large fleet of 2D coaches, mostly TSO but also BFK

They were typically formed TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO

Two of these would form the service south of Carstairs, typically with a Mark 1 buffet between the two sets (and normally remaining attached to the Edinburgh service north of Carstairs)

 

On a Saturday there was one service southbound to Birmingham, which then continued to Euston

This then returned early on Sunday morning (also routed via Kilmarnock)

This initially took over from the Stranraer service and was not included in the public timetable

It was a bit of an oversight, but was put together due to the continued high demand after Sprinters took over (Stranraer to Newcastle), and at weekends the amount (lack) of First Class was not an issue

 

The other was the daily Edinburgh to London Paddington, again also via Birmingham

This also used one of the PC rakes, but slightly modified as there was no Glasgow portion

PC had a large fleet of Mk2E TSO coaches, not Mk2D. These ran with, as you have said, Mk2D BFK coaches. Looking at the 1989 Platform 5 Summer Special they have forgotten to put the title in for the Mk2E TSO stock on Page 55.

 

The Mk2D TSO coaches were allocated to NC (Norwich Crown Point for Anglia), MA (Longsite for Cross-Country), EC (Craigentinny for ScotRail and until May 1988 East Coast), EN (Euston Downsde for Midland Mainline) and OM (Old Oak Common for West of England) in 1988. By 1989 the vast majority were at NC and MA with twelve at EC for ScotRail, four at OY (Oxley) and one at PC (Polmadie).

[Derekstuart]

Just as a quick reminder that this "abnormal" rake was around the time of the "through" trains to Edinburgh- I don't mean the electrickeryfication as that was years later, but for several years prior to the through electrics (spit) the Euston-Edinburgh train went as a complete rake (initially still changing loco in the station and then later on the 'branch' just off Carstairs junction.

 

Perhaps due to changes in diagrams this resulted in this peculiar rake, or perhaps it was just an engineering spare. I don't know.

 

I take it WB is Wembley.

PC is????

[Flood]

PC is????

Polmadie.

[sub39h]

Just to let people know, I managed to pick up a copy of M. Harris' excellent book on Mk2s from German Amazon which was cheaper posted than buying from the UK Amazon.

 

Also I've mentioned this in another thread but I've come across a photo of a Mk2A or Mk2B (I can't tell from the photo but maybe someone else can) in InterCity livery. Maybe there were other non air-con coaches that made it into this livery?

 

http://www.hondawanderer.com/47475_Oxford_1991.htm

[giz]

Looking in the 1991 Platform 5 book, there were several BFKs in InterCity livery. 3 were Mk2, 6 Mk2a and 8 Mk2c. 2 of the Mk2 and 1 of the Mk2a were vacuum braked, the rest air.

 

Mk2b BFKs had all been withdrawn by the time of the photo.

 

The coach in the photo isn't a 2c and at the time the IC livery Mk1s seem to have been either dual or(mostly) air braked, I reckon it is one of the air braked Mk2 or 2a.

[kenw]

 I wanted to know if any of the Mk2Cs made it into BR Sector liveries, and if so which coach running numbers made it into which liveries. If there is a long list, i'd ideally be after any in Regional Railways or NSE liveries.

 

The Newcastle - Liverpool Mk2 sets finished up with air-braked non-a/c stock in Regional Railways livery, although mostly with 'Trans-Pennine' branding on the side.

Probably a mix 2a/b/c

[Vin]

Just to let people know, I managed to pick up a copy of M. Harris' excellent book on Mk2s from German Amazon which was cheaper posted than buying from the UK Amazon.

 

Also I've mentioned this in another thread but I've come across a photo of a Mk2A or Mk2B (I can't tell from the photo but maybe someone else can) in InterCity livery. Maybe there were other non air-con coaches that made it into this livery?

 

http://www.hondawanderer.com/47475_Oxford_1991.htm

Hi all,

I think this might be a spare IC set as the IC loco hauled BHM-PAD trains at the time where made up from air con stock and booked for class 47/8. The loco (47475) was at the time a Parcels sector engine. By the roof layout of ventilators on the first coach, I would say it is a mk2 BFK and the most probable number is 17042.

 

Regards

Vin

[acourtrail]

Some MK2c coaches got Network Southeast livery, I am not sure of all of the numbers, but the ones I remember are.

 

TSOs 5523, 5525 (both early build, with the MK2b style toilet windows)

TSO(T)s 6500 (late toilet windows), 6517 (early toilet windows)

FK 15515 (early toilet windows)

BFKs 17121 (early toilet window), 17132, 17133 (late toilet window)

 

A few MK2b and MK2c coaches also went into Provincial Services/ Regional Railways/ Trans-Pennine livery.

 

TSOs 5453, 5463, 5479 (MK2b TSOs)

TSOs 5505, 5520, 5554 (early toilet windows), 5614 (late toilet windows)

FKs 13527, 13532 (early toilet windows)

 

The MK2b & MK2c coaches used on the Bristol - Weymouth trains 1996 - 2000 were provided by West Coast Railways.

 

The aircraft blue ones were.

 

TSOs 5453, 5478, 5491 (MK2b TSOs)

BSO 9440 (late toilet window)

 

The maroon ones were.

 

TSOs 5463, 5487 (MK2b TSOs)

TSO 5569 (late toilet window)

BSO 9448 (late toilet window)

 

After 2000, the blue ones were repainted into maroon, and there were two other maroon MK2c coaches used by West Coast Railways on the main line.

 

TSO 5600 (late toilet windows)

TSO(T) 6528 (late toilet windows)

[ess1uk]

Which had red suspension springs on their bogies? Was it just NSE ones?

[acourtrail]

Unfortunately, I cannot help 100% regarding the red suspension springs, but I think the NSE ones may have been the only ones.

['CHARD]

Which had red suspension springs on their bogies? Was it just NSE ones?

 

 

Unfortunately, I cannot help 100% regarding the red suspension springs, but I think the NSE ones may have been the only ones.

 

Red primary suspension coil springs were so painted to indicate their rating, IIRC.  It wasn't anything to do with livery.

 

http://www.jamessteward.plus.com/coaches/images/gallery/sj007316.jpg

[ess1uk]

Red primary suspension coil springs were so painted to indicate their rating, IIRC.  It wasn't anything to do with livery.

 

http://www.jamessteward.plus.com/coaches/images/gallery/sj007316.jpg

so looks like i need to paint them red on all my Mk2a BFKs regardless of livery?

[Flood]

so looks like i need to paint them red on all my Mk2a BFKs regardless of livery?

They would have been red for the main springs and white for the secondary ones underneath the grime. Just depends how much grime you have really.

 

This photo shows the amount of variation pretty well: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/7148279085/in/album-72157629613114436/

['CHARD]

so looks like i need to paint them red on all my Mk2a BFKs regardless of livery?

 

As Flood implies, they were oily black with grease and soot after a short time in traffic, so unless your stock is ex-works there's really little need to.

 

It's not just the BFKs either, it was the norm on B4s under Mk2s.  Not sure about B4s under Mk1s....

 

 

EDIT: make that a tentative yes to Mk1s  http://www.traintesting.com/images/Leyland%20coach%20EKR.jpg