CAF to build new LHCS for Caledonian Sleeper

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello there,

 

Thanks for the links to the drawings. Are the bogies shown illustrative, or accurate? They appear to be inside-bearing, similar to Voyager bogies, and I thought these had proved not to be a total success.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[mjkerr]

Are the bogies shown illustrative, or accurate? They appear to be inside-bearing, similar to Voyager bogies, and I thought these had proved not to be a total success

Those are the actual drawings, but whether the bogies are technically correct won't be known until the first appears!

CAF appear to have used two different designs for the bogies on coaching stock, so they are probably for illustrative purposes

The ITT requirement was for a central monitoring point.  No idea what Serco's solution proposes.

As above, this is currently in the Lounge Car and for the new rolling stock is in the Club Car

[Joseph_Pestell]

Here we go, coach plans

Password :

visitor

 

Sleeper 

 

Club Car

 

Seated

 

Pod

 

Combined

 

Thanks for posting those. Very informative.

 

I am deeply unimpressed. They could surely have come up with better solutions than that.

 

I may not have fully understood the drawings (only had a quick look) but I thought they were to have en-suite showers.

[david.hill64]

Thanks for posting those. Very informative.

 

I am deeply unimpressed. They could surely have come up with better solutions than that.

 

I may not have fully understood the drawings (only had a quick look) but I thought they were to have en-suite showers.

I have to agree. I can see nothing in these designs that improves the lot of the existing sleeper passengers in either class. The pod class could probably have been constructed out of spare loco hauled Mark 3's (if there are any) and the existing sleepers could have had a major refurbishment and upgrade for a fraction of the cost of the new stock. I could sort of understand the Scottish government going for new build if it were supporting jobs in Kilmarnock or Glasgow, but throwing money at the Spanish rather than supporting English factories does seem to be a wild waste of my taxes. Rant over.

[Talltim]

I could sort of understand the Scottish government going for new build if it were supporting jobs in Kilmarnock or Glasgow, but throwing money at the Spanish rather than supporting English factories does seem to be a wild waste of my taxes. Rant over.

Haven't the Scots got as many links with Spain as England

[mjkerr]

I may not have fully understood the drawings (only had a quick look) but I thought they were to have en-suite showers.

Yes, the en-suite berths include a shower

A generic toilet has been used in all of the drawings, but it is in there!

If you look at the berths you will see a handbasin

In the en-suite there is no handbasin

[david.hill64]

Yes, the en-suite berths include a shower

A generic toilet has been used in all of the drawings, but it is in there!

If you look at the berths you will see a handbasin

In the en-suite there is no handbasin

To me it looks like the en-suite berths have a private toilet and a handbasin, which is pretty much an essential. There is also an additional circle that might represent a shower head, the position of which suggests you may take a shower while sitting on the throne - Asian style. So water everywhere. It will be interesting to see the drainage arrangements and  how they plan to keep water out of the sleeping area.

[Fenman]

To me it looks like the en-suite berths have a private toilet and a handbasin, which is pretty much an essential. There is also an additional circle that might represent a shower head, the position of which suggests you may take a shower while sitting on the throne - Asian style. So water everywhere. It will be interesting to see the drainage arrangements and  how they plan to keep water out of the sleeping area.

 

"Wet rooms" are all the rage in interior design...

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

"Wet rooms" are all the rage in interior design...

 

Paul

Wet rooms are nothing new - the ENS stock had wet rooms (well the ones that were finished that is) and the idea makes sense, until you wonder where to keep thing like towels and toilet rolls and how to keep them dry.  The MetCamm factory (to use its old name) finally found the answer, and banged in a whopping great VO (Variation Order) as it wasn't part of the original design   

 

Far more interesting will be the plumbing and disposal arrangements as they can get quite complex and if they use small bore plumbing (might be all that space will allow?) it comes with its own headaches - so it will be very interesting to see how they tackle practical issues like that.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Wet rooms are nothing new - the ENS stock had wet rooms (well the ones that were finished that is) and the idea makes sense, until you wonder where to keep thing like towels and toilet rolls and how to keep them dry.  The MetCamm factory (to use its old name) finally found the answer, and banged in a whopping great VO (Variation Order) as it wasn't part of the original design   

 

Far more interesting will be the plumbing and disposal arrangements as they can get quite complex and if they use small bore plumbing (might be all that space will allow?) it comes with its own headaches - so it will be very interesting to see how they tackle practical issues like that.

I'll take another look at the drawings re the showers.

 

I think that the way they have spread the en-suites evenly along the coach suggests large-bore wastes going to several tanks rather than small bore to one large waste tank.

 

PS: Very keen on wet rooms in this household (3 in the building and one more yet to instal). Much easier on maintenance according to SWMBO. I do put in partitions though to keep the loo roll dry.

[Joseph_Pestell]

No, I still don't "get" the showers. Any chance of a drawing just of the en-suite? Perhaps they could put a basin next to the berth (same as the other compartments)  and get more room for the shower in the WC compartment.  That's what some of the French modular hotels do (albeit on a rather roomier layout).

 

I am pleased to see a return of the connecting door between compartments for two people travelling together (very Murder on the Orient Express). But if you want one of those, you can't have en-suite facilities. So one person gets a bathroom, two people don't. That does not seem optimal.

 

I have not laid out the drawings side by side but I think they have managed to do it all with one basic shell and that will be why windows are not a great match in the Club Car.

[Joseph_Pestell]

By comparison with many sleeping cars, interesting to see hinged doors opening inwards to compartment. Much better than hinging outwards and thus blocking the corridor or covering the steward in hot drink.

 

But wouldn't sliding doors make better use of space both there and for the en-suites?

[Joseph_Pestell]

And finally....only disabled accommodation is sleeping berth????

[mjkerr]

No, I still don't "get" the showers. Any chance of a drawing just of the en-suite? Perhaps they could put a basin next to the berth (same as the other compartments)  and get more room for the shower in the WC compartment

The artist impressions have been removed from the Serco website, so this is the next best I can find :

http://blogs.ft.com/businessblog/files/2014/05/PB39668593.jpg

[mjkerr]

only disabled accommodation is sleeping berth????

No, there are a variety of disabled access features

However, the only restriction is that such passengers MUST reserve in advance

 

Seated coach, one fully accessible seat with one assistance seat

The accessible seat can be folded up and removed for wheelchair access

One wheelchair accessible toilet (although the drawings don't appear to show this)

 

Combined coach, one fully accessible berth with adjoining (but not connected) assistance berth

One Wheelchair accessible toilet

[russ p]

Basically what they want is what the nightstar coaches had with the exception of pods

[nightstar.train]

I have not laid out the drawings side by side but I think they have managed to do it all with one basic shell and that will be why windows are not a great match in the Club Car.

Flicking between them on my iPad I would say there are five body shells. The Pod car and seated car have the same window spacing, but then quite different at the baggage end. But the other three types are all different, no similarity in the window spacing at all. They probably could have done it better, but that's what they've done and Serco have agreed to the price. They're all obviously the same design, let's call it the Mk 5.

 

Edit to add: earlier in the thread it was said all the coaches will have conventional draw gear and buffers. The diagrams show more like the anti roll devices that modern units have between coaches, and Buckeyes. Is this what buffers need to be nowadays? Or is that just an early draft. I assume they'll have drop head Buckeyes like the Mk3s, or will the 92s and 73/9s be fitted with buckeyes?

Edited March 2, 2015 by nightstar.train

[nightstar.train]

Basically what they want is what the nightstar coaches had with the exception of pods

Yep. Unfortunately all the nightstar coaches got sold to Canada for 96 pence and a Mountie hat.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Flicking between them on my iPad I would say there are five body shells. The Pod car and seated car have the same window spacing, but then quite different at the baggage end. But the other three types are all different, no similarity in the window spacing at all. They probably could have done it better, but that's what they've done and Serco have agreed to the price. They're all obviously the same design, let's call it the Mk 5.

 

Edit to add: earlier in the thread it was said all the coaches will have conventional draw gear and buffers. The diagrams show more like the anti roll devices that modern units have between coaches, and Buckeyes. Is this what buffers need to be nowadays? Or is that just an early draft. I assume they'll have drop head Buckeyes like the Mk3s, or will the 92s and 73/9s be fitted with buckeyes?

 

The window spacings are indeed different. But I think that if you start from the frame of the seating car, all the other versions fit just with smaller windows (or none) in each space in the frame. So in serious engineering terms, i.e. structural strength, they are really the same bodyshell.

 

And the seated coach is very similar to the CIE coaches shown further back up the thread.

[nightstar.train]

I've managed to superimpose the images one on top of the other to have a good look at it. The seated coach, the club car and the pod people coach are all the same in terms of window spacing. However the sleeper and combined car don't match fully. Some of the windows are small ones where big ones would be as you suggested, but the sleeper has windows much nearer the doors, and the combined has windows essentially cutting through what would be a support pillar on the seated coach. So there will be some difference in engineering. It also depends on how the coaches are built, whether they are stretched skin over a frame or aluminium monocoque.

 

I do think though Jospeh we are arguing semantics. Whilst the mk3 FO, SO, RFM, TRUK, TFO, TSO, TGS are all the same on the deep engineering level, most people would only say the SO and FO share a body shell, as all the rest have differing window arrangements.

 

Anyway, hope CAF release more drawings and 3D images soon, and get the coaches built on time.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The artist impressions have been removed from the Serco website, so this is the next best I can find :

http://blogs.ft.com/businessblog/files/2014/05/PB39668593.jpg

 

That does make it clearer.

 

A "waterfall" shower. So it is that small circle in the middle of the en-suite enclosure plan - meaning that towels and loo rolls, as well as the WC itself, will all get a good soaking.

 

I note also from that artist's impression that the cabin has two bunks. So all rather cramped.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I've managed to superimpose the images one on top of the other to have a good look at it. The seated coach, the club car and the pod people coach are all the same in terms of window spacing. However the sleeper and combined car don't match fully. Some of the windows are small ones where big ones would be as you suggested, but the sleeper has windows much nearer the doors, and the combined has windows essentially cutting through what would be a support pillar on the seated coach. So there will be some difference in engineering. It also depends on how the coaches are built, whether they are stretched skin over a frame or aluminium monocoque.

 

I do think though Jospeh we are arguing semantics. Whilst the mk3 FO, SO, RFM, TRUK, TFO, TSO, TGS are all the same on the deep engineering level, most people would only say the SO and FO share a body shell, as all the rest have differing window arrangements.

 

Anyway, hope CAF release more drawings and 3D images soon, and get the coaches built on time.

 

Thanks for taking the time to look at that in a bit more detail. I wonder of we can find drawings of the CIE stock and see how much change there is from that?

 

I still think that I would have looked to increase passenger accommodation by only having two doors/one vestibule per coach, although that might need bigger windows in the sleeper for emergency exit.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Joseph_Pestell

[mjkerr]

earlier in the thread it was said all the coaches will have conventional draw gear and buffers. The diagrams show more like the anti roll devices that modern units have between coaches, and Buckeyes. Is this what buffers need to be nowadays? Or is that just an early draft. I assume they'll have drop head Buckeyes like the Mk3s, or will the 92s and 73/9s be fitted with buckeyes?

These are the initial drawings and NOT all elements are exact

These were used to illustrate the internal arrangements BEFORE the order was placed

Yes, there will be different bogies and coach interfaces (buffers, coupling, etc)

The window spacings are correct, as are the seating arrangements

Note the coach length at 22 metres

 

One of the bodyshells is nearing completion (which I suspect is a Hybrid Coach) and will initially be prepared as a mockup for presentation by July 2015

[mjkerr]

I note also from that artist's impression that the cabin has two bunks. So all rather cramped.

Berths already have two bunks, so no change there

The franchise also specifies the berth measurements, and the minimum is identical to present

[The Stationmaster]

Basically what they want is what the nightstar coaches had with the exception of pods

And without lots of other things they had - like the small bore plumbing!