(Dapol) Nine Plank, 20T, Unfitted (ER) coal wagons

[kevinlms]

It was in the days when hardly any enthusiasts paid any attention to wagons, so I'd say it was almost certainly 'official', or at least carried out at the nearest wagon works.

Hmm, not sure about this. I've seen photos of wagons that have had remaining bits of livery highlighted in chalk, before being photographed.

 

An example of this, is in Midland Wagons Vol 1, plate 127. It is of wagon No. 95811 post 1948. It is a Loco Coal wagon to Diag 204, with BR lettering & numbering. The old M R & Loco Coal lettering is highlighted in chalk, with no apparent LMS lettering. The photo is credited to Roye England, so I would consider this to not be faked, although it seems odd that a paint job lasted for 25 years.

[Fat Controller]

Hmm, not sure about this. I've seen photos of wagons that have had remaining bits of livery highlighted in chalk, before being photographed.

 

An example of this, is in Midland Wagons Vol 1, plate 127. It is of wagon No. 95811 post 1948. It is a Loco Coal wagon to Diag 204, with BR lettering & numbering. The old M R & Loco Coal lettering is highlighted in chalk, with no apparent LMS lettering. The photo is credited to Roye England, so I would consider this to not be faked, although it seems odd that a paint job lasted for 25 years.

This wasn't highlighted or outlined, but a straight repaint; not just the lettering panels, but the whole wagon had been done. I didn't have access to a camera at the time, so have to rely on memory, but the vehicle was sufficiently distinctive to remain fresh in my memory. I saw many other ex-loco coal wagons around during the same period (the coal trains to Carmarthen Bay power station often had several examples), but, in the majority of cases, only traces of the black panels remained.

[garethashenden]

No problems about 'pedant' mode. I'm really enjoying starting to learn about the world of wagons. Thanks.

P

It's a good thing to learn about. Wagons are the point of the railways. Goods shipments are how the railways made money and that was their goal. The locomotives are just tools to achieve the goal.

[hmrspaul]

The Coal wagons built for the GWR, LMS and LNER (and I suspect the SR but can't be bothered to look up the books) are unsuitable for general coal and other minerals traffic simply because they lacked end doors, and end door tippling was very commonly used, especially for shipment coal and in industries (see other RMWeb topics). I'll agree that LOCO does not appear in the BR book of wagon markings for 1959, but I suspect a lot of works (there were hundreds of them) simply repainted wagons as they appeared to them - or relettered as this was more common than a complete repaint

 

Paul

[teaky]

Fortunately, setting aside the matter of whether the model is accurate or not, the Dapol wagon is modelled with an end door.    According to Peter Tatlow, the first batch of LNER wagons had bottom, side and end doors.  The other similar wagons shown in Tatlow do not appear to have end doors

[Fat Controller]

The Coal wagons built for the GWR, LMS and LNER (and I suspect the SR but can't be bothered to look up the books) are unsuitable for general coal and other minerals traffic simply because they lacked end doors, and end door tippling was very commonly used, especially for shipment coal and in industries (see other RMWeb topics). I'll agree that LOCO does not appear in the BR book of wagon markings for 1959, but I suspect a lot of works (there were hundreds of them) simply repainted wagons as they appeared to them - or relettered as this was more common than a complete repaint

 

Paul

I wonder if anyone has ever worked out how many wagon repair shops there were around the country? In my home town, Llanelli, there were two still active in the 1960s (Lewis's at Sandy Gate and BR at Llanelly goods yard) , and at least one defunct one at Sandy (Amalgamated Anthracite) and another in the docks area. Burry Port, five miles away, had Marcroft's and another BR facility. This pattern of numerous small works would have been repeated around all the coal exporting ports, as well as in many inland areas.

[Mallard60022]

Fortunately, setting aside the matter of whether the model is accurate or not, the Dapol wagon is modelled with an end door.    According to Peter Tatlow, the first batch of LNER wagons had bottom, side and end doors.  The other similar wagons shown in Tatlow do not appear to have end doors

Thanks mate. Glad someone has the LNER info, although I always go to Paul's amazing photo collection for inspiration. I don't think he has any of this possibly ficticious wagon type?

Phil

[teaky]

Thanks mate. Glad someone has the LNER info, although I always go to Paul's amazing photo collection for inspiration. I don't think he has any of this possibly ficticious wagon type?

Phil

No, I couldn't find anything to match on Paul's site either, which is an astonishingly comprehensive collection that I have had bookmarked for years.

 

Tatlow does say that the multi-doored version was the least common and the first batch to be built by the LNER, so it seems likely that later versions (wooden and steel) would dominate post war stock.

 

At present I still think this is a model of an RCH wagon pretending to be a similar LNER one.  I find it an acceptable compromise but everyone has their own standards.

[hmrspaul]

No, I couldn't find anything to match on Paul's site either, which is an astonishingly comprehensive collection that I have had bookmarked for years.

 

As I say on too many occasions, I'm, too young. I can just remember the last of the wooden POs. It is a bloody long time ago.

 

Paul

[petethemole]

A rather different 9 plank http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Horwich&objid=1997-7059_HOR_F_2546

With a lot of rivets and strapping and an end transplant (no end door) this could be converted from the Dapol wagon.

 

Pete

[Il Grifone]

I read somewhere that most large yards had wagon repair facilities. Wooden wagons facilitated this, but probably needed attention more frequently than steel vehicles. The larger capacity wagons were generally used for industrial traffic rather than domestic, for which the smaller wagons were preferred' There was a reluctance by smaller merchants to go up from 8T to 10 or 12T and 20T was really a step too far. I think BR would have preferred to standardise the 21T and 24½T size, but were forced to compromise with the 16T. Some info on loco coal wagons here

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/foxfield/lner_loco_coal_wagon.htm

 

I would agree that the Dapol model is probably an RCH 9 plank design, but have not found anything definite, beyond this

 

http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/GRCW_Wagon_Hire.htm

 

There is a picture of the LNER 8 plank loco coal wagon here  https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/search.htm?subtype=4&company=LNER

Edited May 4, 2015 by Il Grifone

[robmills]

I was interested to see this thread as I have had a couple of these since they were released as part of Airfix's original range, back in the 70s (and  assumed they were of NER origin).

 

Attached is a photo of a Mainline iteration in the Charringtons livery - which I always thought was fictional -  matching the photo found above.

 

So what we can draw from all this is that we have is a quite nice model of an RCH wagon which Airfix muddled with the LNER loco coal eight-planker as described and pictured in the early Tatlow book. It is not inconceivable I presume that some PO nine-plankers were repainted in the BR unfitted livery, so all that is demonstrably incorrect with the Airfix/Mainline/Hornby/Dapol grey version is the number, which should be P prefix as opposed to E, and the lack of the end door stripe. 

 

Learning new stuff every day! 

 

Cheers

Rob

[Mallard60022]

 

There is a picture of the LNER 8 plank loco coal wagon here  https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/search.htm?subtype=4&company=LNER

That's a great photo.....thanks.This 8 Plank coal is almost exactly what Dapol have done (except the extra plank!!!)

Phil

[robmills]

Isn't the photo of the cupboard door LNER version, not the drop down door as per Airfix, Dapol etc?

[31A]

I wondered whether the design was altered to cupboard doors to make it easier to unload them against coaling stages (at platform height), where it might not be possible to lower drop doors right down?  Just had a look at my original Tatlow and reminded myself that the GN had some 20T Loco Coal wagons of similar outline, but these also had drop doors.

[Mallard60022]

Isn't the photo of the cupboard door LNER version, not the drop down door as per Airfix, Dapol etc?

Yes , you are correct as there are no bang bars are there. Shows how much I know!

P

[Invicta]

A rather different 9 plank http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Horwich&objid=1997-7059_HOR_F_2546

With a lot of rivets and strapping and an end transplant (no end door) this could be converted from the Dapol wagon.

 

Pete

 

 

There used to be a decent 4mm plastic kit for that type of L&Y 20-tonner. IIRC, the kit was described as a loco coal wagon - the small metal plate between the doors above the 'To carry 20 Tons' lettering is a 'for loco coal traffic' branding.

 

Going back to the Dapol wagon, I'd agree with the consensus that it's a model of an RCH PO wagon design, and that Dapol/Hornby have produced several releases in BR grey with spurious 'ER' wagon numbers, given it's similarity to the LNER 8-plank loco coal and similar wagons.

 

As I recall, it's not the first time it's origins have been discussed on RMWeb, and I'm pretty sure I've seen photos of a very similar PO 9-plank (slightly different ironwork IIRC) fitted with raves for coke traffic - another potential conversion from the Dapol wagon.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Invicta

[Invicta]

A couple more sightings of an apparent prototype for the Dapol 9-plank!  Just pulled a couple of volumes of the Keith Turton PO wagon books off my bookshelves and the front cover picture of Vol 5 is an official Charles Roberts works pic of a 20T 9-plank, fitted with coke raves in the livery of 'Dinnington Coke' (Wagon #2320). Apart from the coke raves and an unusually narrow third plank, it's a good match for the model.

 

The text of the book mentions that similar wagons were built by Gloucester for Benzole & By-Products Ltd, of Bedwas in Wales in 1928- these are illustrated in Vol 2 (which I don't have, but I think I've seen a photo of one of these in one of the railway magazines a while back, in an article about the demise of the ex-PO wagons under BR ownership)

 

Turton Vol 7 has a couple of pics of Denaby & Cadeby Main Collieries #3246, part of a batch of 50 built by Charles Roberts in 1936- the example photographed was fitted with coke rails a year later, and the pics show it in both guises. Again, it's almost a dead ringer for our old friend from Dapol, right down to those odd circular recesses in the doors (albeit with a slight difference in position)

 

So apart from the Charringtons version modelled by Mainline, we've got at least two or three more known PO liveries for the Dapol wagon, or something very close to it. A quick Google reveals that both the Dinnington and Denaby liveries have been modelled by Hornby and Dapol respectively.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Invicta

[Mallard60022]

Ah well. If any survived until 1960 in BR unfitted form then I can just about tolerate the compromise. I suppose I should have thought harde before 'jumping' at the bargain price tag, but they were so cheap I can use them to practise weathering techniques etc.

Thanks all.

Phil

[hmrspaul]

Isn't the Dapol model very like the CR ones built in 1930 for  Gas Light & Coke (Southall) 20T 9-plank http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/photoinfo.php?id=AAR814(there are several more photos in the collection)?

 

Paul

Edited May 6, 2015 by hmrspaul

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Paul. Much appreciated.

I'll take a pic of one tomorrow so we all know what I'm on about! Should have done it earlier!

Phil

[Trains&armour]

Isn't the Dapol model very like the CR ones built in 1930 for  Gas Light & Coke (Southall) 20T 9-plank http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/photoinfo.php?id=AAR814(there are several more photos in the collection)?

 

Paul

Thank you very much! Very useful photo collection.

[Sasquatch]

Recently doing a bit of research on the 9 plank 20 tonner I stumbled across this thread.

 

The model introduced by Airfix and now marketed by Dapol is of a Railway Clearing House 9plank coal wagon. 

Suitable liveries for  this vehicle would be private owners and BR with a P prefix.

 

I do have in my collection the Hornby version in NE loco coal wagon which although not prototypical could represent a diagram  44  LNER loco coal type which was based on the RCH design. 

Airfix, Hornby and Dapol all numbered the fake Dia.44 correctly, which makes for a nice looking wagon if you are prepared to overlook the extra height.  I must remember to swap out the spoke wheels provided by the manufacturer for 3hole disc type as per the pic in Tatlows vol 4A.

 

Anyway to shed a little more light on the OPs question please check out this link.

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/ince-waggon-ironworks-wigan-20t-9-plank-2xsd-no-20-op-side-photograph-to-demo-brake-gear-regd-lner-91854-1924.html

 

No doubt here, that this wagon was painted for the photograph which demonstrates the very odd looking brake gear. Interesting point in the caption is that the RCH type was registered with the LNER and if so along with any others would have received an "E" prefix if passing into BR ownership!

 

Wagon modeling has come a long way since Airfix introduced the very pleasing looking 9 planker, still one of my favorite RTR wagons albeit inaccurate. 

 

Well I find it all rather fascinating at least. Squatch

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sasquatch

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

14 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

...a nice looking wagon if you are prepared to overlook the extra height...

For LNER / BR(ER) 8 plank loco coal purposes, to my eyes it still looks good after the the top plank is carefully removed by razor saw. 

 

One of several Airfix GMR wagons that have stood the test of time and remain exceedingly useful. Very clever subject selections, especially the LMS van body and a five plank general merchandise open good enough to 'pass' as an example from any of the big four.

[Tony Burgess]

Well, although a thread which started rather a long time ago, I have found it useful.  Yes, I too have one of the "unpainted" Dapol wagons to finish (though mine is painted in a rather attractive very dark grey), and it recently came near the top of my "to do" list.

 

For those still interested, Hornby's "The Collector" Issue 129 Autumn 2021 featured an item on the Stainmore route - Barnard Castle to Kirkby Stephen East - with a photo attributed to D Sutcliffe on 20 Sep 1961 at Kirkby Stephen East yard.  In the photo we see a planked wagon, presumed 20 or 21T, two side doors, and of the NE 8-plank type.  Enquiring of the heritage folk at KSE  I got the impression they might have been unaware of this photo.

 

What I thought interesting about the wagon was its apparent excellent condition, in fairly fresh BR Grey.  It looks to be where the locos were coaled.

 

For my part I will probably paint it in grey and give it a P prefix, this being not so difficult when using BR B-number transfers..