(Dapol) Nine Plank, 20T, Unfitted (ER) coal wagons

[Mallard60022]

Good evening. I've spent hours today trying to identify these wagons on the net. I also don't have any info in my personal (small) collection of books about wagons. 

I got three weathered versions of these direct from Dapol at a very good price and they are all numbered E30910. I know it is a bit 'fussy', but I would like to renumber two of them and want to get the numbers correct for circa 1960. Where might I find the 'number list'?

Also, is it possible that any of these became BR(SR) numbered wagons or did they all remain on the ER and numbered E+++++?

Many thanks,

Phil

[colin penfold]

They also sell 30946 which gives you one more definite and would suggest other numbers in between would be ok?

[petethemole]

I bought 2 unpainted examples a while ago but I've been unable to find evidence of a LNER 9 plank 20t wagon. They had an 8 plank mineral and a loco coal version with cupboard doors. The SR had an 8 plank mineral very similar to the LNER diagram. I think they were a type used by some private owner fleets but I don't recollect seeing an actual photo of one, let alone an example of any of the PO liveries used by Airfix or their successors. I have a version finished as a Charrington's wagon. I finished one unpainted wagon as a BR grey version with a P serial number; I'm not sure what to do with the other. I wonder if Airfix intended it to be an 8 plank but the designer or toolmaker miscounted the planks?

 

Pete

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Pete. Ah, that explains why they were cheap as chips! Ah well, I shall have to fudge them somehow and pretend they are SR 8 planks maybe........

Phil

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I've been unable to find evidence of a LNER 9 plank 20t wagon. They had an 8 plank mineral and a loco coal version with cupboard doors. ...I wonder if Airfix intended it to be an 8 plank but the designer or toolmaker miscounted the planks?...

This smacks of a long ago mix up to me.

 

There was a 9 plank RCH design 20 tonner, which the LNER used as  a basis for their design of 20T loco coal wagon, the side sheeting reduced to 8 plank to fit under the loading screens it would have to work through. This was diagram 44 with twin drop side doors, end door and bottom doors. Features like the circular depression, one in each side door corner are found on this prototype, and reproduced on the 9 plank model which then carries LNER loco coal wagon numbers,. (You can have 30987, 31896, 157853 - 952 too.) 325 built. All information in this para can be seen and read in Tatlow LNER wagons 4A.

 

Now, it is not at all difficult to slice off the top plank, and then it looks right. Later the LNER built over 2,000 of the similarly overall dimensioned but twin cupboard doors on a side type, also eight plank, diagram 77; and then progressed to an all-steel equivalent. Kits covering some of these types from Parkside -Dundas.

[teaky]

I think the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby wagon is based on a GWR one and they just did the common RTR trick of rebadging it to get their money's worth.

 

If you don't count the planks, I think it has the right look to get away with it but it all comes down to what level of inaccuracy you can tolerate.

Edited May 2, 2015 by teaky

[Mallard60022]

Thanks guys. I'd be quite happy if it was based on a GW design as it would be more likely to appear in the west! I'll have a search for the wagon in GWR web territory.

P

[Il Grifone]

Thanks guys. I'd be quite happy if it was based on a GW design as it would be more likely to appear in the west! I'll have a search for the wagon in GWR web territory.

P

 

 

AFAIK it's not a GWR design. They had moved on from wooden body coal wagons - the steel LWB Dapol wagons are based on a GWR design. (Don't ask me what 'N' diagram off hand - there were several variations of 20 ton steel mineral wagons). However in the BR period* these were all common user so could well have appeared in ex GWR territory.

 

* Even before, unless branded to the contrary, most company wagons were common user (from the '20s, though some were before and back loading was permitted even before this - 1911?). Early in WWII, all P.O. coal wagons were commandeered by the government and also became common user.

 

(I like your avatar by the way!)

439

Edited May 3, 2015 by Il Grifone

[teaky]

Mallard60022, I think you should ignore the GWR idea.  I must have it mixed up with something else.  Il Grifone is much more knowledgeable than I am about the GWR.  I cannot find anything on the web with a wooden body.  Apologies of you've wasted any time searching blind alleys.

 

I am now convinced that 34theletterbetweenB&D has it correct and that this is an RCH design which is also what Iain Rice thinks in his RTR Wagons book.  I only have the earlier Peter Tatlow LNER Wagons book and this shows a wagon (30987) that looks very similar (albeit 8 planks).  There is also an ex-GNR wagon that has a wooden underframe and a 7-plank body.  There is some variation in plank width.  The ex-GNR wagon has only 7-planks but the accompanying drawing shows it as 9'  3 1/8" above rail height.  A drawing for the similar LNER design but with cupboard doors shows 8'  9 7/8".

 

All the Tatlow wagons are Loco coal though which may close that avenue off for a non-LNER layout.  I wonder how protoypical the Charringtons wagons are?

[petethemole]

Just found this: http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p210252395/h754CB76#h754cb76

 

Pete

[Il Grifone]

The loco coal distinction was abolished around 1952 (after all, the coal was all 'ours' at the time), so the branding would not be relevant after this, though it would have taken some time to disappear. i can remember seeing wagons so marked in the fifties.

 

Ex private owner 'P' numbers for these, or any other, wagons are a matter for conjecture. AFAIK only partial records remain.

409

[colin penfold]

As someone else who has found out after buying that a Dapol livery was bogus (banana vans) I think they should be up front about this. One cottage industry I have bought PO wagons from lists whether their wagons are fully genuine, have some licence or are made up. I feel the big players should do the same.

[Mallard60022]

OK so I will look at my 'coal for 72A from Yeovil train'  and if it looks like these were nowhere near any shown I shall use them for 'experimentation' with hacking and weathering.

Great picture link mole....thanks. That is very very similar to the ones I have although rated at 21T. That little fact is easily changed on mine.

P

[Il Grifone]

346

I always assume that P.O. liveries are bogus, without evidence to the contrary. The practice has a long history. For example, 'Hornby', 'Meccano', 'Trix' and 'Bassett-Lowke' wagons exist from before WWII.

 

Of course, there were so many owners of coal wagons that it's fairly safe.... P.O. vans in particular are suspect. I believe that most of the legions of Continental beer vans are also of dubious authenticity.

[teaky]

Just found this: http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p210252395/h754CB76#h754cb76

 

Pete

Thanks.  Nine planks too.

[colin penfold]

just remembered the company I refer to above http://www.wessexwagons.co.uk/

[Il Grifone]

 

Also beware of wagons masquerading as what they are not - a BR standard 12T van is not GWR style for example. (The hinged doors are of GWR (and SR) origin it's true, as are the 'bonnet' end ventilators, but the corrugated steel ends hail from the LMS and the LNER (obviously 'committee' designed).

 

Also R.C.H. regulations specified a 9 foot wheelbase underframe for 12T (raised to 13T in WWII) coal wagons. The common 10 foot wheelbase model is a result of 'one size fits all' economics.

 

(Sorry - Pedantic mode again!)

396

Edited May 3, 2015 by Il Grifone

[Mallard60022]

No problems about 'pedant' mode. I'm really enjoying starting to learn about the world of wagons. Thanks.

P

[PenrithBeacon]

Without a photo of the model (or a reference to the Dapol catalogue) I'm finding this conversation difficult to follow. That aside, I've always understood that the GWR didn't have any 'traffic' as opposed to 'departmental' coal wagons. They did however occasionally utilise merchandise wagons on this capacity.

 

I suspect this 'model' is one of Dapol's fantasy products.

 

Regards

[teaky]

Different livery but one of these.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

 

The loco coal distinction was abolished around 1952 (after all, the coal was all 'ours' at the time), so the branding would not be relevant after this, though it would have taken some time to disappear. i can remember seeing wagons so marked in the fifties.

 

Ex private owner 'P' numbers for these, or any other, wagons are a matter for conjecture. AFAIK only partial records remain.

409

 

In the late 1960s, at Llanelli Stabling Point, I saw an LNER steel-bodied loco coal wagon. Nothing odd about that, you may think; however this one had been relatively recently re-painted, including the word 'LOCO' in large white letters on a black panel....

[hmrspaul]

In the late 1960s, at Llanelli Stabling Point, I saw an LNER steel-bodied loco coal wagon. Nothing odd about that, you may think; however this one had been relatively recently re-painted, including the word 'LOCO' in large white letters on a black panel....

It remains quite clear on this one taken in 1977 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lnermineral/e3c12e45

 

Paul

[kevinlms]

In the late 1960s, at Llanelli Stabling Point, I saw an LNER steel-bodied loco coal wagon. Nothing odd about that, you may think; however this one had been relatively recently re-painted, including the word 'LOCO' in large white letters on a black panel....

But had it been repainted as such officially, or had a group of enthusiasts got hold of it?

[Fat Controller]

But had it been repainted as such officially, or had a group of enthusiasts got hold of it?

It was in the days when hardly any enthusiasts paid any attention to wagons, so I'd say it was almost certainly 'official', or at least carried out at the nearest wagon works.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

The loco coal distinction was abolished around 1952 (after all, the coal was all 'ours' at the time), so the branding would not be relevant after this, though it would have taken some time to disappear. i can remember seeing wagons so marked in the fifties... 

The evidence of photos suggests to me that these higher capacity loco coal wagons of all LNER designs were kept on the intended traffic to at least some extent subsequently on ER. There were only some thousands against the quarter million plus 12T - 16T coal vehicles cluttering up the BR network, yet views of major ER sheds and especially those with 'cenotaph' coalers generally have a greater proportion in view than the 50:1 ratio. The cupboard door feature of the majority generally make them fairly easy to pick out. (The operational advantages of fewer lifts and wagon moves and less siding space used, would appeal to me if I had to manage such an operation.)

 

The change in the later versions to 'cupboard doors' in the side only also has me intrigued. The side drop door was standard on coal wagons, why this different feature on the LNER's loco coal wagons? Clearly a decision to make this change occurred, and was then adhered to throughtout the LNER's existence. Could it be as simple as making the wagon unsuitable for supplying most customers, so there was one fewer factor tending to divert them from their intended traffic?