Plain Green Brush Type 4 D1507?

[60526]

This is not the best of photos but was taken by my brother with a box brownie in early 1963 I suspect, it's D1507 on the down side of Wood Green Station on a class 4 goods. No yellow ends and no two tone either?. One of the websites shows that the loco was new to 34G Finsbury Park in January 1963, I don't know if this date was when it was officially taken over by BR or when it was originally released by Brush, the only thing I can think of is that Brush were running late and released the loco for trials before it was finished? Any ideas?

[stewartingram]

Looking at the pic as shown, I initially tended to agree with you. My first thought was that a number of Brush 4 were initially released from works (for testing?) in undercoat such as pink or brown (red oxide?), but I think this was later in the build programme.

However....just as a quick experiment, I saved the pic, then just played around with Photoshop. I'm no expert with it btw! I found that by simply adjusting sliders to control things such as saturation or exposure etc, it appears to me that the front does have a yellow panel. It is darker than the body, the vertical sides are straight and about in line with the ends of the handrail under the windscreens, and it also appears to wrap over the top of the "nose" where the handrail is. Compaired to a pic I took of a brand new loco at Derby, this seems to be a yellow panel?

As for the sides, the jury is out on that one. There could be a similar trace of a different shade, on the bottom left of the body, hinting at the lighter green. However the poor original shot (no offence intended), and possibly the quality of scanning, has left many marks on the pic making a judgement very difficult.

I agree with the date of the photo though, what with the use of the 4... headcode etc, so it does look as if it is new (or only just in service).

It would be interesting if a much better scan could be done - if that is even possible?

Thanks for posting and posing the question!

 

Stewart

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Stewart

 

Can you post your "played with" version, please?

[slilley]

The loco looks as though it is actually in service. Crewe works certainly ran Brush Type 4s on test in primer of various shades, but it is not something I have seen with Brush built ones. Also as the loco was to traffic in Jan 1963 if it was on test at that time Brush would not have sent so far from home. Early test trips tended to be nearer Loughborough before going on to Doncaster for final acceptance by BR.

 

One other point to note is that when the loco entered service in 1963 we were in the grip of a very severe winter. It snowed on Boxing Day 1962 and even in London there was still snow about in March. Looking at the picture there isn't any snow visible.

 

I have seen pictures taken early on where the two shades of green and the yellow have ended up looking pretty similar and suspect this is the case here.

[kenw]

Looking at the photo as posted, difficult to tell, but there does appear to possibly be a change in tone along the bodyside at about the level of the bottom of the cab windows - just where the change would be. 

 

Worth noting, I've seen no other photos, or reference to, Brush 4s without a yellow panel and they were introduced after this was standardised. The change appears to have been fairly rapid too, I've noticed previously  when looking through albums, where photos are dated, the changeover period having both locos with and without yellow panels seems to be limited to only a few months mid '62

[Evertrainz]

Looking at the photo as posted, difficult to tell, but there does appear to possibly be a change in tone along the bodyside at about the level of the bottom of the cab windows - just where the change would be. 

 

Worth noting, I've seen no other photos, or reference to, Brush 4s without a yellow panel and they were introduced after this was standardised. The change appears to have been fairly rapid too, I've noticed previously  when looking through albums, where photos are dated, the changeover period having both locos with and without yellow panels seems to be limited to only a few months mid '62

Ken - There is most definitely a change in tones on the bodysides. However, from what I can see, the tonal change happens below the number. On the production duffs, the change between dark and light happened above the number. This was no doubt an early paint scheme, with yellow panels (maybe?).

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I agree with Stewart et al above, that this is a Brush Type 4 in the standard two-tone green/small yellow panel livery.

 

I too have seen black/white photos where these features APPEAR to be absent, when it's actually the photo process which gives that impression.

 

Regards,

Peter

[keefer]

lens mounted colour filters used to control contrast etc with b/w can also affect the shade of grey produced by a coloured object

[jonny777]

The loco looks as though it is actually in service. Crewe works certainly ran Brush Type 4s on test in primer of various shades, but it is not something I have seen with Brush built ones. Also as the loco was to traffic in Jan 1963 if it was on test at that time Brush would not have sent so far from home. Early test trips tended to be nearer Loughborough before going on to Doncaster for final acceptance by BR.

 

One other point to note is that when the loco entered service in 1963 we were in the grip of a very severe winter. It snowed on Boxing Day 1962 and even in London there was still snow about in March. Looking at the picture there isn't any snow visible.

 

I have seen pictures taken early on where the two shades of green and the yellow have ended up looking pretty similar and suspect this is the case here.

 

There is no snow, and the large trees in the background appear to have no leaves.  I know that spring was somewhat late that year, but the photo would not have been taken any later than April, surely?  Easter was mid-April (Easter Monday the 15th) that year so maybe taken in the school holidays?

 

The best I can do with net searching is this - http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=0146020076000

 

But that was taken in July.

[60526]

Ok, thanks for the replies, the photo was taken with a Box Brownie, I'm off to see if we still have the original negative.

[stewartingram]

Hi Stewart

 

Can you post your "played with" version, please?

If you really want it I will...but I'm away in Donny for the weekend, so be patient.

 

Stewart

[45125]

The loco looks as though it is actually in service. Crewe works certainly ran Brush Type 4s on test in primer of various shades, but it is not something I have seen with Brush built ones. Also as the loco was to traffic in Jan 1963 if it was on test at that time Brush would not have sent so far from home. Early test trips tended to be nearer Loughborough before going on to Doncaster for final acceptance by BR.

 

One other point to note is that when the loco entered service in 1963 we were in the grip of a very severe winter. It snowed on Boxing Day 1962 and even in London there was still snow about in March. Looking at the picture there isn't any snow visible.

 

I have seen pictures taken early on where the two shades of green and the yellow have ended up looking pretty similar and suspect this is the case here.

Some of the Brush examples in the 17xx series were painted at Derby, so would have worked across in primer

 

 

Al Taylor.

[BrushVeteran]

Here is a scan of an official Brush Traction image of D1507 with D1506 awaiting collection from Falcon Works. The copyright of this photo I believe is still with Brush so I would rather it stay within this forum, its reproduction here only to clarify a query. Hope this is useful.

[kenw]

Ken - There is most definitely a change in tones on the bodysides. However, from what I can see, the tonal change happens below the number. On the production duffs, the change between dark and light happened above the number. This was no doubt an early paint scheme, with yellow panels (maybe?).

 

Sorry, but any pictures I've seen of green 47s are always in the same scheme, even from the first, D1500, when new, and by the time they were introduced yellow panels were obligatory - this was introduced as a safety feature

 

Some of the Brush examples in the 17xx series were painted at Derby, so would have worked across in primer.

 

Brush (Loughborough) to Derby for painting, via London??

Picture's at Wood Green (now know as Alexandra Palace) station

[slilley]

Sorry, but any pictures I've seen of green 47s are always in the same scheme, even from the first, D1500, when new, and by the time they were introduced yellow panels were obligatory - this was introduced as a safety feature

 

 

Brush (Loughborough) to Derby for painting, via London??

Picture's at Wood Green (now know as Alexandra Palace) station

D1507 was painted by Brush, it was delivered in Jan 1963 in the depths of winter with D1506. Hence the Brush official pic of it and D1506 about to depart.