A3 Book Law

[pom-pom]

here is a 2599 Book Law as per an advertisment, advertised as 'removed from box only for photo'  but clearly has had the ashpan lever removed, I wonder what else might have been done if anything to render the running plate straight?

 

2599_1a_r1200.jpg

 

I have taken a closer look as several of my A3s (various) and A1s (Great Northen and Flying Fox)  and then just after thinking that I had far too many of these lovely models I saw 2569 'Gladiateur for sale UKP75 , and what else could I do?

 

2569_A1_Gladiateur_1abc_r1200.jpg

2569_A1_Gladiateur_2abc_r1200.jpg

 

It too lacks the ashpan lever, but it is in the packet....  with three Pullmans, old-type. 

 

speaking of bits missing, can anyone tell me where I might find a cutoff lever for an A3 for under the running plate, to replace one lost from one of my models?  (edit; problem solved bought a body only R850 for pennies, looks to have the right-shape lever, out with snips, file and glue)

 

I have to say that these models including Book Law are beautiful examples of LNER history, and at under UKP100 for Book Law I think very good value even if you have to disassemble and re-assemble it,  (reminds me of British Leyland cars of the1970s...   )

 

Hi Rob,

 

if you're ever looking for detail pieces for A1/A3s then you can obtain a detailing etch from http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/a3_details.htm

 and this includes items that drop off the Hornby models quite easily.

 

I look forward to your A3 efforts if you will be so kind to post them here.

 

As to 2569 Gladiateur, yes the cream of the crop from Hornby as far as I can see. I have two of them - much better assembled, much finer lining and a much better refined motion bracket. One of mine was so nice that all I did was replace the nameplates for 247-Developments brass etched versions. The other one I replaced the body with Hornby's Royal Lancer effort so that I had 4473 Solario built to the original GNR loading gauge and with the correct tender. As for Royal Lancer herself, well modification of the corridor tender and a Gladiateur body has given me 4472 running as an A1 in the 1930s.

 

And bent, twisted running plate woes... well I personally think this is an area of weakness on the Hornby models. It's just too flimsy and its complexity combined with potentially bad tooling and assembly indifference leads to most models having problems in one area or another. However, the 'ski slope' effect on Book Law and Minoru seem to be the worse instances...

 

Nick

[pom-pom]

Talking of Gladiateur, here's something that may be of interest. The bottom plate is original Hornby, the middle one is Modelmasters and the top one is 247 Developments. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about quality.

 

Modelmasters can also supply the correct circular NBL works plates for Gladiateur although they are the same quality as the nameplate.

 

[robmcg]

Kernow now have Book Law on for £99.99 !!!!!

 

I know, I bought one.  

 

Also bought a weathered version from Rails, which will appear in the 'best ever' thread in due course, although no-one would say the assembly of Book Law wins any prizes!

Edited February 25, 2016 by robmcg

[Black 5 Bear]

I know, I bought one.

 

Also bought a weathered version, which will appear in the 'best ever' thread in due course, although no-one would say the assembly of Book Law wins any prizes!

I keep telling the wife, the more you spend the more you save. Unfortunately when it comes to railway modeling, she never believes me. Edited February 25, 2016 by Black 5 Bear

[robmcg]

Hi Rob,

 

if you're ever looking for detail pieces for A1/A3s then you can obtain a detailing etch from http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/a3_details.htm

 and this includes items that drop off the Hornby models quite easily.

 

I look forward to your A3 efforts if you will be so kind to post them here.

 

As to 2569 Gladiateur, yes the cream of the crop from Hornby as far as I can see. I have two of them - much better assembled, much finer lining and a much better refined motion bracket. One of mine was so nice that all I did was replace the nameplates for 247-Developments brass etched versions. The other one I replaced the body with Hornby's Royal Lancer effort so that I had 4473 Solario built to the original GNR loading gauge and with the correct tender. As for Royal Lancer herself, well modification of the corridor tender and a Gladiateur body has given me 4472 running as an A1 in the 1930s.

 

And bent, twisted running plate woes... well I personally think this is an area of weakness on the Hornby models. It's just too flimsy and its complexity combined with potentially bad tooling and assembly indifference leads to most models having problems in one area or another. However, the 'ski slope' effect on Book Law and Minoru seem to be the worse instances...

 

Nick

 

Thanks for that information Nick.

 

I have some nice photos coming along, the assemby and/or tooling issues do appear to be pretty bad on Book Law and Minoru, but just looking at my Book Law models and other A3s here on my desk, they really are beautiful.  I wonder if the bent-upwards running plate thing is a plastcs-manufacturing issue, design issue or assembly ssue? A bit of each I suspect.

 

Actually the worst examples of Book Law I've seen are the one pictured on the box and web advert picture.

Edited February 25, 2016 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Please bear with me as I show some more photos of Book Law.

 

It means a lot to me to have a go at fixing this model, I have very limited skills, and let's face it  the model isn't too brilliant in manufacture nor assembly, and can be bought for under UKP100 now, and is heavily discounted by Hornby themselves.

 

My apologies in advance if I repeat what has been so ably demonstrated by others in this thread before me.

 

My issues are that I am somewhat limited with a good left hand but a very damaged right hand, the latter only works as a numb claw.

I received a Book Law from an Ebay seller, UKP84  and it lacked the ashpan lever, also the body proved to be loose, someone may have tried to fix the bend in the running plate. It was advertised as 'no apparent faults'.

 

I was able to place the engine upside down on a suitably soft surface for work, surprised to see a devil's 4-pin plug into the tender, I didn't remove it though I do have the tool, there aren't any fragile bits on the Gresley large tender. The front steps had both come off in the mail, so the bogie rotated freely to expose the front body retaining-screw.  This was not tight, it was in fact very loose, someone had cross-threaded it, explaining a loose body at the cab end. The red wire on the motor was undamaged.

 

With the screw removed, the engine body came away freely, the distortion of the front running plate was matched by a not-very-accurately placed cab structure.

 

I held the boiler as best I could with my numb right hand. With left thumb under the base of the smokebox and used my forefinger to bend the front buffer and frame assembly downwards, first with a gentle but firm pressure. It seemed to have little effect and tended to bounce back to its original upward-bend. So I applied a more serious pressure, a 'this could snap something' pressure, for a short period.  Something happened, not quite a 'crack' but a distinct change in shape. The room was around 25C if that's relevant.

I suspect that the first attempts at pressure may have stressed the assembly slightly, the sudden quite severe pressure certainly made it change to approximately straight and stay there. I cannot say whether this would be true for all models! 

 

I was aware that the retaining screw had a metal insert  for the female part on body, this had been slightly proud, there was no washer. I replaced the body on the chassis and the metal part moved a little, it was now flush with the surrounding plastic, as I presume it is designed to be.

 

With a little bit of tighten-release, tighten-release I was able to overcome the cross-threaded section of the retaining screw.  The photos show the difference before and after this adventure, or nervous drama, call it what you will.

 

Here are the 'before' and 'after' photos of each side.

 

before

after

 

before

after

 

I also took the opportunity when the body was off to give the cab assembly a finger-and-thumb 'tweak' to improve its squareness. The tender body needed attention of a similar type so the body was fully home on its chassis.  The valve gear motion bracket is bent downwards on the rh side, maybe I will remove the body again and bend it upwards to suit the plastic moulding.

 

Finally I am relieved that I don't think I broke anything obvious with my ham-fistedness, and I'm pleased to report that Book Law can be made into a half-decent model.  I don't think the running plate is as straight as on some Hornby A3s but at least the upwards bend at the front can be fixed with a fairly robust finger-and-thumb bending motion, and possibly a smidgeon of luck.

 

Cheers, and apologies again for repeating what others have so ably pointed out earlier in this thread.

 

typo edit

Edited February 27, 2016 by robmcg

[robmcg]

here is my 'Book Law' as 'finished', with steps and cylinder drains on....   I have altered the photo very slightly here and there, but it is essentially something close to what Hornby might have wished?

 

My crude lighting doesn't allow very good rendition of the body colour, there was flickering pale sunlight on the boiler in the lower pic., exposure was about 13 secs at f29.

 

 

 

Now to add scenery, steam, smoke and all kinds of visual effects!  Not allowed here in a thread I didn't start, but will appear somewhere in the 'best ever' thread maybe.

Edited February 27, 2016 by robmcg

[pom-pom]

Well it's getting there Rob! It's interesting that you had the same problem with the tender body not clamping down on the chassis properly. That front plastic lug is about as mush use as an ashtray on a motorbike. I substituted two tiny self-tappers in suitable pilot holes in the corners.

 

Right-hand side (fireman's side) you have locating lugs showing at the base of the rearmost splasher and this is a problem associated with the assembly of the running plate again. It's not affixed to the cab properly and I myself think this is a result ultimately of the boiler join not being correct at the second boiler band from the front - the whole running plate is pulled forward slightly. A very common problem on these models by the looks of it. I had a go at tackling it somewhere back in this thread.

 

When you said the front steps had fallen off I was about to say don't bother reattaching them but I see you have. Not only do they restrict the track curvature that can be navigated due to bogie wheel clearance but also, as far as I recall, the new footstep types weren't fitted until 1935. Book Law as modelled has the original large cab cut-outs which were replaced about the same time with the restricted cut-outs designed to protect the new bucket seats so is pre-1935... but post-1932 as it has the cabside wind-deflectors fitted. I intend to take the footsteps off mine but Hornby have glued them on with the most almighty-sized blob of hard glue which I may need to drill through.

[robmcg]

Thanks pom-pom, I had forgotten that the front steps were not fitted until later...   my models seem to be ok on the radius of curves I subject them to, but placement can cause issues.

 

I agree that 2599 'Book Law' has suffered somewhat from the vagaries of production, but hopefully some will think it worth it, especially if it can be bought at a good price.

 

I know that this thread and others in the past have delved into the many subtleties of A1 and A3 Gresley Pacifics, far beyond my current knowledge, even though I do have the 'Green Book' from the RCTS.  I enjoy Peter Coster's Irwell Book of the A3 Pacifics as well, so there is really no excuse for me!

 

As to the correct rendition of LNER greens, I will leave that to people with better eyesight and colour sensitivity in the blue-green range than I possess. I have taken a series of photos of 2599 and I also own Great Northern and Flying Fox, with Gladiateur en route to me, also just bought the NRM LNER green Flying Scotsman with double chimney, so there is no doubting may loss of sanity....  

 

Best

[DonnyRailMan]

Great photo`s as always Rob I think Hornby should employ you to do that job.. 

[No Decorum]

Great photo`s as always Rob I think Hornby should employ you to do that job.. 

Hornby did! Some of Rob’s picture appeared on Hornby coasters.

[robmcg]

Hornby did! Some of Rob’s picture appeared on Hornby coasters.

 

Indeed and all down to Simon Kohler, who has been extremely supportive of my efforts over the years. 

 

Cheers

[robmcg]

After all this, I am still in the dark as to the existence or otherwise of a Hornby version of the Flying Scotsman in A1 form in LNER colours, with right-hand drive.

 

With proper boiler lining, running plate red lining, cylinder lining if applicable, cab glazing and some lining, and proper 4472 lettering.... some tender drive versions have all these qualities but are A3 left-hand-drive.   Equally the Australian tour R2687 version is beautiful but is a single-chimney LNER A3 with left-hand drive.  Did 4472 run in 1947-8 in this condition?

 

I rather like the idea of picking up a well-painted factory body from a tender drive non-runner and putting the engine body on a current version R3086 chassis with tender all very cheaply...

 

oops wrong thread, apologies, I have now asked this in the Flying Scotsman thread

Edited February 29, 2016 by robmcg

[micklner]

Renumber/name Flying Fox or Gladiateur versions.

Edited February 29, 2016 by micklner

[Guest spet0114]

Did 4472 run in 1947-8 in this condition?

 

 

No. 4472 ceased to exist between 1946 and 1963. During that time it was variously numbered 502, 103, E103 and 60103. 

[robmcg]

Renumber/name Flying Fox or Gladiateur versions.

 

What place does logic have here?       You are quite right of course.

 

As an aside, Hornby produced wartime black A3 'NE' 103 R3080 or R3100, and these have disappeared from the second-hand market... complete with double chimney and deflectors as per restored condition. I wonder if this model could be used as a basis for a genuine 1947 A3 rebuild of 'Flying Scotsman'... ?

[micklner]

A4 Boiler is the main problem and wrong Tender .

[robmcg]

Thanks, I had forgotten those aspects.

 

Out of interest, did LNER ex-4472 NO.502 103 or E103 ever run in LNER Apple green? In other words as an a left-hand-drive A3? With non-corridor tender?

Edited February 29, 2016 by robmcg

[Guest spet0114]

A4 Boiler is the main problem and wrong Tender .

The black Scotsman models depict the loco in post-2011 condition with an A3 boiler.

[Guest spet0114]

Thanks, I had forgotten those aspects.

 

Out of interest, did LNER ex-4472 NO.502 103 or E103 ever run in LNER Apple green? In other words as an a left-hand-drive A3? With non-corridor tender?

Yes, 103 was in green, shortly after conversion to an A3. However, the first boiler that the newly-converted A3 had was of the 'original' A3 type without a banjo dome. From memory, Hornby modelled this incarnation back in the 90s.

 

Edit - R2146 is the model to look for.

.

Edited March 1, 2016 by spet0114

[robmcg]

Thanks for the R2146 reference, I didn't realise that even as A3 103 she was right-hand-drive, presumably not for long.  Also I see the body of that version has good boiler and cab lining.   there may be hope yet for a cheap hybrid model using various parts  

 

edit, looked at prices for this model.   Oh dear....    

Edited March 1, 2016 by robmcg

[micklner]

The black Scotsman models depict the loco in post-2011 condition with an A3 boiler.

 

Good spot, thanks.

[jessy1692]

Not being an expert on such things just seen a queen of scots train pack with gladiateur in at 50 quid with 15hrs to go on ebay looks good n no bids so far.. if any one fancies a punt. From reading through thid thread thought id drop it in if any one fancies it

Edited March 2, 2016 by jessy1692

[robmcg]

It will be interesting to see how that goes.

 

Meanwhile I have just received two more 'Book Law' models, one from Kernows at UKP92 delivered to NZ and one weathered by Rails, both have a degree of warp in the running plate, the Kernow one not too bad... the ashpan lever needs to be replaced on other side, and you can see in the following 4 photos the degree of assembly error...  motion bracket too low on both sides, warped running plate on l/h or driver's side at front, otherwise pretty straight. The tender for once is good, but the tender-engine coupling was bent so rear driving wheels were a few mm off the ground... 

 

 

Pics of weathered version to follow.    I'm actually quite enjoying this.  Nearest thing to actual modelling I've done for some time!

Edited March 2, 2016 by robmcg

[robmcg]

By comparison with the last photo above, here is the result of a firm finger-and-thumb downward 'tweak' of the front of the running plate, which although having some effect does not fix the distortion in the housing below the steam pipe, in fact the steam pipe moves forward if you bend too hard.

 

Isn't plastic wonderful...!

I probably bent the motion bracket fractionally too much up, it being thin metal, but it's now nearer where it should be..

 

Overall it's a fair model, very attractive in fact, and the detailing and proportions are beautiful. The Canon camera does not really do justice to the colours, being a mix of reading-lamp and natural light...  and my ineptitude with finding the right filter, using 'auto'.

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by robmcg