A3 Book Law

[pom-pom]

I have just been reading up on A4 tenders in the RCTS Green Guide and can now give (I think) the answer to what sort of wheels BOOK LAW's tender should have.

 

The 1928 Corridoor tenders (11 of them) were built with spoked wheels.  When they were refurbished in 1936 to go onto A4s they exchanged wheelsets with 1931/1934 "new type" tenders attached to A3s, giving those tenders spoked wheels instead of the disc wheels previously attached.  The RCTS Green Guide does not mention which A3s had the tenders concerned, but it was the majority of those with such tenders, if not all (and may also have included the Raven A2s).

 

SO, looking at the cab cut-out, BOOK LAW is pre-1936, so its tender would have disc wheels.  If the cab had had the later cutout then it would have disc wheels for a few months THEN spoked.

 

The model is correct in its tender wheels, which SHOULD be A4 wheels as they were the same wheels on 11 of the prototypes....

 

On worksplate position, some A3 boilers had the plate above the steampipe, others aft of it.  Looking at photos, locos changed worksplate position when they changed boilers at times. Presumably the plate was refitted to the holes that were already there.  Again a 1937 pic will not tell what was right in 1935 on any given loco, nor will one from 1934 since A3s rarely ran more than 2 years with the same boiler.  In this respect the model may or may not be correct.

 

Les

 

Note the section on the NT tender wheels is contained under A4 tenders, the corresponding section under A3 does not mention it, though it talks about brakewheel and scoop control positions on the New type tenders attached to A3s.

 

Damn! Looks like I will have to return the disc wheels to my tender to be accurate then...

 

Shame as the green spoked ones look considerably better with this loco/tender. I wonder... does anyone know if the disc wheels on these "new type" A3 tenders were painted green to match the loco wheels? The A4s in the 1930s all appear to have had their disc tender wheels painted the same maroon colour as the loco wheels?

 

Thanks for the research tip Les. As you say, the cab cut-out dates Hornby's Book Law to pre-1936 but I believe the small cabside wind deflectors were fitted in 1932 so we can further date it as 1932 - 1935.

 

Nick

[micklner]

Black Wheels.

[Tony Wright]

Thanks for sharing these photos - I'm inspired and can only aspire to such realism! The permanent way is also very impressive. You set your attainment bar very high.

 

Nick

Thanks Nick,

 

Your comments are very much appreciated. 

 

My apologies for not replying sooner - I just didn't look.

 

With regard to the permanent way, its excellence is entirely down to Norman Solomon. In case you may not know, he and I did a DVD on trackwork and LB (in part) featured on it. 

 

With regard to setting the attainment bar 'very high', this is very much down to the work of several friends. Though I've built most of the locos and most of the carriages, I don't think it's fair to 'bask' in the work of what is largely that of others. 

[pom-pom]

Thanks Nick,

 

Your comments are very much appreciated. 

 

My apologies for not replying sooner - I just didn't look.

 

With regard to the permanent way, its excellence is entirely down to Norman Solomon. In case you may not know, he and I did a DVD on trackwork and LB (in part) featured on it. 

 

With regard to setting the attainment bar 'very high', this is very much down to the work of several friends. Though I've built most of the locos and most of the carriages, I don't think it's fair to 'bask' in the work of what is largely that of others. 

 

Apologies not needed as I myself spend some time on the site and then, when life does not permit, I am elsewhere for protracted periods of time and frequently miss things. One thing I would like to note Tony is thanks extended for the advice on changing the front bogie wheels on A3s... I have furnished myself with a set of Gibson wheels and very fine they look too. As far as other work on goes on Hornby's errant "Book Law", I have been working on lowering the ride height of the tender as several comments have suggested it is too high. The wheels appear to be spot-on diameter wise.

 

Incidentally, "Book Law" is now available new again from Hornby for anyone feeling brave or foolhardy. I would have loved to obtain another one but the growing list of corrections needed dissuades me entirely. Here is the link to the Hornby site page and note that there is now a brutally honest 3/4 front-view available showing all her running plate/frame distortions off to full effect!

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/locomotives/steam-locomotives/lner-4-6-2-book-law-a3-class.html

 

Nick

[micklner]

Perhaps Hornby could list them a models of the front deck of a Aircraft carrier  , the slope would be lovely for a Harrier take off.

 

 

Cant believe they have the nerve too

 

1. sell them it such condition and

 

2. still trying to get over £150 for them.

[pom-pom]

Perhaps Hornby could list them a models of the front deck of a Aircraft carrier  , the slope would be lovely for a Harrier take off.

 

 

Cant believe they have the nerve too

 

1. sell them it such condition and

 

2. still trying to get over £150 for them.

 

Let us imagine for one moment, in a parallel universe... "Book Law" came out after all the waiting... it was almost flawless. But not only that, it came with an easily dismantled cab and a small collection of interchangeable large cutout/small cutout cab sides and bucket/non-bucket seats. Now in this little collection of cab sides there could even be ones with different cabside numbers for those not want or able to deal with tiny transfers.

 

So far, we are talking about little pieces of plastic costing... well, probably costing very little. But imagine the possibilities with that little lot... both for us and Hornby sales. How about if Hornby sold LH/RH drive conversion kits and tenders on their own... what about an A1 GN tender in apple green...

 

Now that sounds more like 150 quid's worth... ahh, I'm dreaming....!

[micklner]

Sadly I cant see no obvious reason why it couldn't be done , the A1/3 are designed for exactly that. Different cabs , boilers and various other detail parts are all separate fittings as are the various Tenders .

The only reason I have ever seen is that they reckon they don't sell !!  = Bonkers and total nonsense in todays world. Perhaps when Locos where at a much lower retail price then that may have been true. Now days at £150 and rising prices they need to make their products more affordable , attractive and useable, producing  them as part built kits would cover all of those problems to people who are railway modellers and not just collectors and reduce the prices at the same time.

Along the same lines Simon Kohler claimed that a Apple Green A4 wouldn't sell and they have simply totally ignored the post war LNER Pacifics which have only been done in BR Liveries. The B1 again done in LNER Black and the forthcoming Apple Green version is BR lettering !.

 

DJM I believe may be selling Tenders etc in the future. Variations on the Q6 and others would be a nice option in the future.

[pom-pom]

Would it be possible to correct the front end by gently heating it and then clamping it in position once its correct. Then again why should modellers have to correct a manufacturers foul up.

 

Introducing heat to a plastic-bodied and nicely finished body is for the very brave only! If you trace this thread backwards you will come across my little endeavour to correct the banana-shaped front end. And yes, agreed re., manufacturers mess up... particularly so at this price point.

 

Nick

[pom-pom]

Sadly I cant see no obvious reason why it couldn't be done , the A1/3 are designed for exactly that. Different cabs , boilers and various other detail parts are all separate fittings as are the various Tenders .

The only reason I have ever seen is that they reckon they don't sell !!  = Bonkers and total nonsense in todays world. Perhaps when Locos where at a much lower retail price then that may have been true. Now days at £150 and rising prices they need to make their products more affordable , attractive and useable, producing  them as part built kits would cover all of those problems to people who are railway modellers and not just collectors and reduce the prices at the same time.

Along the same lines Simon Kohler claimed that a Apple Green A4 wouldn't sell and they have simply totally ignored the post war LNER Pacifics which have only been done in BR Liveries. The B1 again done in LNER Black and the forthcoming Apple Green version is BR lettering !.

 

DJM I believe may be selling Tenders etc in the future. Variations on the Q6 and others would be a nice option in the future.

 

I'm sure this may have been discussed elsewhere in the forum but I often look at various RTR models and think.. "if only I could have that dome/chimney or that cab or that tender... not the whole loco". The possibilities for creating further models would be greatly enhanced. Perhaps I've got it wrong - are specific parts available from Bachmann, Hornby, et al.? I keep staring at all these GCR tenders coupled to RTR O1/O4/J11 locomotives and think of the possibilities for further GCR models... having the tender readily available and various other difficult to make sundries such as boiler fittings makes the prospect of scratchbuilding a whole lot more approachable.

[micklner]

Hornby only sell Chassis parts and even then not all the parts, what is available is on the service sheets.

 

Bachmann sell some parts , I have tried to get a A2 chassis as I have a Complet Body and Tender going nowhere without any luck. I suggest ask the Bachmann service centre you maybe lucky or not.

 

As usual they will probably say no money in supplying other parts !!.

[pom-pom]

Look out - there's another Hornby A3 on the horizon and the photo on the website is not a computer-generated graphic but a photo.

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/locomotives/steam-locomotives/br-4-6-2-minoru-a3-class-br-1955.html

 

 

Now this one has it all - later cab cut-outs, LH-drive, a GN tender, absolutely straight running plate/frame, no kinks under the smokebox and no ski-jump at the front! It must surely be constructed in a different factory. I'm not sure if this tender match is accurate for Minoru if the livery was backdated to grouping times.

 

And... it's not in LNER livery so a total repaint job for me. I normally shy away from repainting because lining out is just the wrong side of the limits of my skills. Clearly I need practice. Perhaps I should go for this A3 instead/in addition... get the paints out instead of the scalpel.. ;-)  Of course, it would be complete buffoonery to purchase another bent frame A3... bitten once I am very much twice shy.

[HOTTODDY]

Let us imagine for one moment, in a parallel universe... "Book Law" came out after all the waiting... it was almost flawless. But not only that, it came with an easily dismantled cab and a small collection of interchangeable large cutout/small cutout cab sides and bucket/non-bucket seats. Now in this little collection of cab sides there could even be ones with different cabside numbers for those not want or able to deal with tiny transfers.

 

So far, we are talking about little pieces of plastic costing... well, probably costing very little. But imagine the possibilities with that little lot... both for us and Hornby sales. How about if Hornby sold LH/RH drive conversion kits and tenders on their own... what about an A1 GN tender in apple green...

 

Now that sounds more like 150 quid's worth... ahh, I'm dreaming....!

You missed out there. Almost 10 years ago Hornby released an A1 "Flying Fox with a GN tender, all in superb LNER livery, a 60th birthday present.

A great runner too, though it spends most of its time on display in my show case, it is currently on duty on the layout. It looks the part with 8 Pullmans in tow!

 

Tod

[Ian Hargrave]

You missed out there. Almost 10 years ago Hornby released an A1 "Flying Fox with a GN tender, all in superb LNER livery, a 60th birthday present.

A great runner too, though it spends most of its time on display in my show case, it is currently on duty on the layout. It looks the part with 8 Pullmans in tow!

 

Tod

I agree.A lovely loco. But they do frequently appear on eBay...so you may still not miss out.

[thefin]

You missed out there. Almost 10 years ago Hornby released an A1 "Flying Fox with a GN tender, all in superb LNER livery, a 60th birthday present.

A great runner too, though it spends most of its time on display in my show case, it is currently on duty on the layout. It looks the part with 8 Pullmans in tow!

 

Tod

 

Lets not forget the RHD A1 No.2569 'Gladiateur' in the R2598M concession trainpack 'Queen of Scots' of the same vintage (and quality) of R2549 'Flying Fox' ---- which is more than can be said about the triang pullmans in the set!   Fortunately, there are now some rather nice new 1930's K class pullmans available to make a correct QoS of that period (assuming, of course, you run it behinnd an A1)..

 

"The pre-war ‘Queen of Scots’ was the only all-Pullman train to be formed entirely of all-steel cars, which (in 1932) the following were available:-

 

NILAR, BELINDA, THELMA, PHYLLIS (FK) 1st Kitchen cars --- Hornby's R4663 'LORAINE' needs renamed)

SHEILA, AGATHA (FP) 1st Parlour cars --- Hornby R4664 'Agatha' 

TC67, TC68, TC69, TC70, TC71, TC72 (TK) 3rd Kitchen cars ---- Hornby R4660 No.72

TC73, TC74, TC75, TC76 (TP) 3rd Parlour cars ---- Hornby R4661 No.73

TC77, TC78, TC79, TC80 (TBP) 3rd Brake Parlour cars ---- Hornby R4662 No.79

 

A 1932 ‘Queen of Scots’ formation (North bound) comprised LOCO, TBP, TK(ktr), TP, FP, FK(ktr), TK(kl), TBP (NB: ktr=Kitchen trailing, kl=Kitchen leading)"

 

Note: the info is not my own research per se, but a crib, a long time back, from somewhere on tthe net and i cannot recall exactly where.  Apologies to the author's concerned...

[micklner]

Strange and bizarre mix with Thompson and Gresley Suburbans works out at about 1/2 a Coach for free   

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/52451/R3132K-WSL-Hornby-Class-A3-Book-Law-Train-Pack

[teaky]

Hmmm, three coaches with dodgy teak finish and a locomotive with a distorted footplate?  Nope, think I'll pass on that "bargain" Kernow.

[Bernard Lamb]

Strange and bizarre mix with Thompson and Gresley Suburbans works out at about 1/2 a Coach for free   

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/52451/R3132K-WSL-Hornby-Class-A3-Book-Law-Train-Pack

Not to mention that some of the coaches were not built until well after the loco was in a rather different livery/condition.

Bernard

[phil-b259]

Not to mention that some of the coaches were not built until well after the loco was in a rather different livery/condition.

Bernard

 

That may be true but if you step back from the railway modellers rather precise view of things it is worth noting that the contents do vaugely complement each other in general terms terms*.

 

That is to say we have an apple green loco with LNER on the sides, teak finish coaches with LNER on the sides, a mixture of 1st and 3rd (unbranded) accommodation for passenger plus one of the coaches being a brake type.

 

* Its certainly a lot better than some offical freight "train sets" we have seen in he past mixing say a class 58 with private owner wagons or a steam pack having a TTA as one of the wagons - Neither 'look' right.

[pom-pom]

A little update on modifications.

 

For those that would like red-lined cylinder covers, it makes quite a difference to the overall appearance. I'm not great at painting such fine lining in a straight line yet so I cheated and fitted Hornby's spare part No. X9561.. lined cylinders at about £3. Why Hornby couldn't just fit this part in the first place will probably remain a mystery. And yes, add another £3 to the cost!

 

Note that some fine adjustments to the ride height of the tender has not only lined it up better vertically but also the difference in height between the cabside numbers and the tender lettering is now not so pronounced. I found that the single little plastic lug holding the leading edge of the tender body down was not doing so sufficiently and is very much a weak point. There is room underneath to drill clearance/pilot holes for the tiniest self-tappers available, in my case 1.4 x 6mm, these will pull the front down nicely onto the chassis.

 

Nick

[pom-pom]

And no, I still haven't swapped the green spoked tender wheels back for the discs as I need to see all wheels turning on the track whilst I make adjustments. Similarly, I have not yet swapped the bogie wheels out for the much better Gibsons - at present I am at a loss on how to paint and line these wheels... does anyone have any tips on this please? I presume that mounting the axle in a drill chuck would be an option.

[robmcg]

Well folks I have always wanted an LNER A3 and was disappointed in the bent running-plate issue with Book Law, but in a rash move today bought an example on Ebay which appeared to have straightish assembly...

 

I have noticed bent running plates at the cab end common on earlier versions from c2005 (Windsor Lad among others)  and had a bad experience with the REF weathered Flying Scotsman BR era 1963 condition, returned to Hornby, badly-assembled boiler smokebox area, and they were not very quick to replace it either.

 

Here is the vendor's picture of what I hope will look good with my teak Gresleys...   and already I notice a slight misalignment with the 2nd boiler band... shades of the BR  Flying Scotsman.  I notice Hornby still have this 2599 Book Law model for sale on their website at UKP102  but was never willing to overlook the running plate thing, the rest I can live with, and wouldn't take a chance on an unseen purchase.

 

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, a good read with a nice cup of tea..

 

 

no doubt pics of this model will appear in the 'Hornby's best ever' thread in due course.  

Edited February 19, 2016 by robmcg

[robmcg]

A little update on modifications.

 

For those that would like red-lined cylinder covers, it makes quite a difference to the overall appearance. I'm not great at painting such fine lining in a straight line yet so I cheated and fitted Hornby's spare part No. X9561.. lined cylinders at about £3. Why Hornby couldn't just fit this part in the first place will probably remain a mystery. And yes, add another £3 to the cost!

 

Note that some fine adjustments to the ride height of the tender has not only lined it up better vertically but also the difference in height between the cabside numbers and the tender lettering is now not so pronounced. I found that the single little plastic lug holding the leading edge of the tender body down was not doing so sufficiently and is very much a weak point. There is room underneath to drill clearance/pilot holes for the tiniest self-tappers available, in my case 1.4 x 6mm, these will pull the front down nicely onto the chassis.

 

Nick

 

I greatly admire what you have achieved with 'Book Law', Nick.

 

So much so that I have bought a second model from Kernows at UKP99 which ends up here in NZ at UKP92 all up including air post.

I am bound to be able to make at least one nice model by coercion of bent running plates, tender bodies and smokebox tweaks!

 

This thread is a valuable resource thanks to you and other who have contributed. I will keep disc wheels on the tender. The front of the running plate will become straight by coercion and washer-removal and a long stern stare.

 

As an aside I have started to notice slight errors on other A3s I own, similar to those evident on Book Law but never so pronounced. Even Sanda Kan produced versions with slight rises in front running plate, and misalignment of the 2nd boiler band, neither being really evident unless you look for them. One wonder why the tooling and assembly was so poor with Book Law.

 

Here is an earlier-version lightly-weathered A3 in this case re-named but it shows what I thought was good assembly of a great model. You can just make out a curve in the running plate and a possible boiler band 'thing', but all else is good to my eye.  This is what I will aim for with both Book Law models, one to be weathered.  pic not edited beyond background, if I recall doing it correctly

 

 

edit; another unedited pic (as in, not altered beyond focus, tone, colour, brightness and so on) showing how 'wavy' a running plate can be on a Sanda-Kan-assembled A3

 

 

I look forward to seeing my 'Book Law' models!  

Edited February 23, 2016 by robmcg

[robmcg]

here is a 2599 Book Law as per an advertisment, advertised as 'removed from box only for photo'  but clearly has had the ashpan lever removed, I wonder what else might have been done if anything to render the running plate straight?

 

 

I have taken a closer look as several of my A3s (various) and A1s (Great Northen and Flying Fox)  and then just after thinking that I had far too many of these lovely models I saw 2569 'Gladiateur for sale UKP75 , and what else could I do?

 

 

It too lacks the ashpan lever, but it is in the packet....  with three Pullmans, old-type. 

 

speaking of bits missing, can anyone tell me where I might find a cutoff lever for an A3 for under the running plate, to replace one lost from one of my models?  (edit; problem solved bought a body only R850 for pennies, looks to have the right-shape lever, out with snips, file and glue)

 

I have to say that these models including Book Law are beautiful examples of LNER history, and at under UKP100 for Book Law I think very good value even if you have to disassemble and re-assemble it,  (reminds me of British Leyland cars of the1970s...   )

Edited February 23, 2016 by robmcg

[robmcg]

For what its worth Rails now do a weathered version of Book Law for less than Hornby's original retail price.   

 

Probably not to everyone's taste but I like it.

[Black 5 Bear]

Kernow now have Book Law on for £99.99 !!!!!