DavidH Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I dread to think what you believe visitors to Stonehenge should be dressed in. Tongue-in-cheek, of course! Paul Depends on whether they run themed galas ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 I dread to think what you believe visitors to Stonehenge should be dressed in. Tongue-in-cheek, of course! Paul I bet someone would be saying that their woad is the wrong shade and they're wearing a pre-henge colour when it should be post-henge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I try to visit several preserved railways each year and always enjoy the days out. In my view it does definitely add something to the experience if locos and stock are matched up appropriately where possible. I have never worked on a preserved railway but following a 30 year career working and commuting on the railway I do know there are all sorts of reasons affecting train formations and things can change at very short notice. The railways I visit in the South West all seem to try to match up locos and stock when I have visited. I often pick up back copies of the various society magazines to read and note that there are often articles where they proudly report that an old item of stock has been restored to make up a complete rake of matching heritage stock. If it is mum dad and the kids who pay the bills and they are only interested in something on the front that goes 'chuff chuff' then perhaps the Severn Valley Railway, for example, could save themselves a bit of work, and carriage shunting, by sending out random coaching stock sets of mixed Western, Midland or teak stock! cheers I'm not making it up, how much data do you want? I have 34000 words of research here conducted at several large preserved railways plus as much raw data as you could possibly want. Do a bit of research into demographic segmentation in the heritage rail industry if you don't believe me. To be blunt to many visitors/passengers a preserved railway (I don't really like the term customers) is viewed as a theme park that runs trains rather than roller coasters. I've got to agree with the "gold braid brigade" comment, but lets not forget the hat so large you could land a Chinook on it. There is definitely a certain "type" of volunteer who puts a shiny uniform on and changes into Hitler in a waistcoat! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Enthusiasts often go too far in their complaints about historical inaccuracies in railway preservation, but it sounds like the two examples in Colin's OP are fair enough as they certainly sound like authenticity could have been easily improved. It also sounds very frustrating to visit for the quad-arts only to find a diesel at the front. I certainly wouldn't be impressed. I think that running them on a normal running day behind the 4MT would be more than excusable, but when advertising a specific running day for these particular coaches, appropriate motive power should surely be provided if possible. I was at the Bluebell last weekend for their model railway weekend. The BR liveried Q class was on the 6 coach olive liveried train, with the olive liveried S15 on the mix of crimson cream/green mk1s. I thought that was a little odd, but that may be down to the fact that a the Mk1 train would be heavier and the S15 more powerful. This was, however, as close to an enthusiast day as you could expect on the Bluebell at the moment, and a little more attention to detail would have been appreciated. As I say though, it can go a bit too far. There are Bluebell members who are furious at the influx of crimson cream Mk1s, as some wouldn't have carried the livery and some have the incorrect bogie for the livery. If you're going to let a coach bogie ruin your day, you need to sort out your priorities! Besides, it is a smarter, more interesting livery than all over malachite and something a little different for the cameras. With regards to the over-zealous staff issues, briefly mentioned earlier, on this same visit I witnessed a young member of staff trot the length of the platforms of Horsted Keynes to tell off a couple who had ventured onto the ramp at the North end of platform 2 (rarely used by timetabled trains). He patronisingly informed them that trains ran through the station and that they should return to the platform, and they did so, looking a bit sheepish. The couple were presumably hoping to get a good look at Blackmoor Vale which was on display just beyond the platform, and it is also worth noting that this ramp in particular leads to a crossing to the picnic area which is often open to the public. Whilst the member of staff was not technically wrong to challenge them, I felt that in the circumstances, his actions were particularly over the top, and got the impression that he was enforcing the rules for the sake of it. On the other hand it was nice to see a teenage volunteer who was clearly very passionate about the railway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted July 7, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 4th & 5th was a 1960's gala. Sorry, I was referring to the diesel gala. It was on 12th - 14th June Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted July 7, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 Just had a look at the pictures (preserved and working) of 76084 on the owners web site, it looks pretty authentic to me - what did you have in mind? http://www.standard4.com/gallery.html No problem with the loco, it's an absolute cracker. Just that when they sorted out the roster it would have been much better if it had taken the steam turn on the sunday of the diesel gala rather than the B12 in apple green, and stayed in the shed this week and let the B12 haul the quad arts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 If the general public aren't bothered if the stock doesn't match then it follows that they're not bothered if it does. I'm fairly sure they don't want to see a diseasel on the front though. BUT having non-matching stock clearly does matter to the enthusiast, and presumably that includes the staff on the railway. I would like to think that they do their best to assemble matching trains where appropriate. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 BUT having non-matching stock clearly does matter to the enthusiast, and presumably that includes the staff on the railway. I would like to think that they do their best to assemble matching trains where appropriate. Ed Important point. The staff, especially volunteers and those within the operating department will also be enthusiasts and want to see authenticity where possible. I'm sure that most railway volunteers would prefer to run beautifully restored pre-nationalisation carriages. The situation at the NNR outlined by Colin however, is still rather perplexing. Whilst enthusiasts make up a small percentage of the customer market for preserved railways, there would be no preserved steam for Joe-public to enjoy if railway enthusiasts didn't exist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 There is, of course, an answer to these niggles - get involved, every railway is crying out for volunteers. Then you might realise that there is always SO much more to it than meets the eye. I wonder, did the OP ask at the railway why X wasn't running with Y? Most don't, but then take every opportunity to carp without finding out reasons why. I am sorry if I come across as a tad cynical about these matters but nearly 30 years on the MHR has opened my eyes somewhat...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted July 7, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 I didn't ask them Phil, I just didn't go. I pop down from time to time as I live nearby and spend a couple of quid in the café and bookshop, but only if there's something worth looking at. Iusually combine it with a nice walk in Sheringham Park (NT.) On top of that a few times a year take a ride. I'm the sort of marginal customer that cares what's running. On that basis I hardly ever visit the Mid Norfolk! I understand that your experience gives you a certain outlook and I respect the input you give on lots of preservation related conversations. I wouldn't argue with you but this seemed such a no brainer that I thought it worthy of comment on here. My experience of volunteering on preserved railways (albeit lots less than you and not on the NNR) is that the rank and file volunteers get very little chance to influence stuff like rostering policy so my chances of influencing this by joining up would be slim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 Fair enough Colin. As you say,even as long standing volunteer we scratch our heads sometimes and wonder why no one takes any notice of us, but when it all comes out there is usually a valid reason for decisions taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twright Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 As a volunteer myself involved with restoration and operations, I know that some form of compromise has to be made with everything. Steam engines need washouts and have to have light maintenance done moderately frequently and so often it can be difficult to get the correct stock and locos together at the same time. Getting the right coaches would generally need shunting to be done to put the right rakes in the right places which is both time consuming and not free - at least 1 loco is needed which uses fuel - this happens for photographic specials as people are paying but can't be applied to normal running days. Off topic, while I agree that on galas and photographic specials some effort should be put in to make it look 'right', on normal running days it isn't the enthusiast that is being catered for, it's the non-enthusiasts (and some enthusiasts) who don't mind what the 'train' is. I also haven't noticed any mention of the principle being applied to diesels, how many times have you been to a diesel gala and seen a BR blue loco on Blue/grey coaches and equally how many railways can supply a whole (accurate for the loco - NNR Quads/B12) pre-nationalisation rake of coaches for the pre-nationalised loco. These are my views and not those of the railway I volunteer at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 As a volunteer myself involved with restoration and operations, I know that some form of compromise has to be made with everything. Steam engines need washouts and have to have light maintenance done moderately frequently and so often it can be difficult to get the correct stock and locos together at the same time. Getting the right coaches would generally need shunting to be done to put the right rakes in the right places which is both time consuming and not free - at least 1 loco is needed which uses fuel - this happens for photographic specials as people are paying but can't be applied to normal running days. More OT, while I agree that on galas and photographic specials some effort should be put in to make it look 'right', on normal running days it isn't the enthusiast that is being catered for, it's the non-enthusiasts (and some enthusiasts) who don't mind what the 'train' is. I also haven't noticed any mention of the principle being applied to diesels, how many times have you been to a diesel gala and seen a BR blue loco on Blue/grey coaches and equally how many railways can supply a whole (accurate for the loco - NNR Quads/B12) pre-nationalisation rake of coaches for the pre-nationalised loco. These are my views and not those of the railway I volunteer at. Hi Tom, All fair points, and I certainly appreciate all of the effort that goes into running preserved railways, and the lengths required to achieve accuracy. However, as Colin has pointed out a few times since his OP, as far as we can tell, the compromises you mention don't seem to apply to the situations he mentioned. As someone else put it, on both occasions, there was a 'choice' of two available locomotives, and that is what we find puzzling! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 I can recall many years ago seeing quad-art sets in traffic, latterly of course they were diesel hauled. So in order to get the train 'right' for my memories the stock should be in grubby BR livery and hauled by what became a Class 26 (among others) so perhaps a slightly 'breathed on and renumbered Class 27 would suit (with de-updated bodywork details of course). Can heritage, or whatever you care to call them, railways always get the exact loco and stock match to suit whoever demands it - well to be honest i doubt it because so many factors mitigate against availability. Most railways advertise what locos they hope to have in traffic, especially for galas and I suspect the 'net might provide ways & means of finding out what stock they are currently using, So if you want a particular mix time your visit to suit, if you just want a day out simply go along and enjoy it. Recently a small group of us who associate on another RMweb thread paid a visit t the GCR for a trip on their lunch train (organised as it happens by someone posting on this thread) and we had a great day out. Now as it so happens the engine which worked our train was in unlined black livery - a livery which as far as I know it never wore while in BR ownership and indeed on the only occasions when I saw it in BR traffic it was in lined out livery. But that didn't spoil my day at all (in fact I found it rather amusing). We went for a day out but we still found some interesting things to look at and photograph - there's usually far more to most heritage railways than the trains they are running 'on the day'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 The 27 is probably more authentic on the quad set than the B12 in a tenuous sort of way as 26s hauled them briefly on GN suburban services. B12s probably never have them at all,also the NNRs insistence of running the teak pigeon van with the quads is just wrong http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p675790157/h1AC6991#h645e23c4 Just need them in a shade of weathered grot, probably crimson underneath. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twright Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Hi Tom, All fair points, and I certainly appreciate all of the effort that goes into running preserved railways, and the lengths required to achieve accuracy. However, as Colin has pointed out a few times since his OP, as far as we can tell, the compromises you mention don't seem to apply to the situations he mentioned. As someone else put it, on both occasions, there was a 'choice' of two available locomotives, and that is what we find puzzling! While I agree it was very strange for the first steaming, there may have been minor maintenance/a washout needed for the second which (correct me if I'm wrong), as we haven't heard from someone on the operational side (only hearing people's guesses), may have been a possibility. I'm also speaking with a slant of the way the GWSR is run stock-wise which may have clouded my point. The second half of my post was more aimed at the sub discussion of why railways don't run the right stuff, not the OP, and has been modified. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Isn't the issue here one of communication? As Phil points out, there's usually ultimately a reason why someone in the ops dept has taken a decision. If that was communicated out, there'd be less frustration. It may be that some enthusiasts then need further explanation to answer detailed questions, but I can't see why that would be an issue. After all, on boards like this, there's usually several people ready to chip in and offer an explanation (eg to my query as why diesel galas are necessary) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Isn't the issue here one of communication? As Phil points out, there's usually ultimately a reason why someone in the ops dept has taken a decision. If that was communicated out, there'd be less frustration. It may be that some enthusiasts then need further explanation to answer detailed questions, but I can't see why that would be an issue. After all, on boards like this, there's usually several people ready to chip in and offer an explanation (eg to my query as why diesel galas are necessary) The problem with communicating the facts in any detail is that it invariably gives the professional outrage merchants/whingers/armchair experts* more ammunition to aim in your direction. (*delete as appropriate) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I had to go to Weybourne on Monday for a work related visit. Didn't even know trains were running. Saw a 31 on the Quad Art set, I thought that was nice. The 4MT was heading to Holt and you could hear it nicely all the way to Holt. Nice cup of coffee on the platform with the wife. Nice bit of the day. It was being run like a real railway, so got a big tick from me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted July 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2015 There's a possibility that I could be owner's repping with Nellie on the NNR in September. I shall do my utmost to lobby for a sort of malachite green Southern engine to pull the quad arts at least once..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted July 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2015 There's a possibility that I could be owner's repping with Nellie on the NNR in September. I shall do my utmost to lobby for a sort of malachite green Southern engine to pull the quad arts at least once.....Except of course it's Wadebridge not Nellie. Oops. Wrong gala, but the other criteria apply. Oh yes..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Personally I have my doubts that quad arts were ever seen on the MGNR, no matter what pigmentation the paint had. If I ran a preserved line, I'd mix the colours up, and install turning at both ends so I could always run locos tender first. Mostly to annoy the parasitic photographer types who trespass in the neighbours field and don't buy a ticket, but still have the brass neck to whinge about what gets run. Not that I'm accusing anyone here of that, but when I was involved with preservation those were the types who really wound me up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 If I ran a preserved line, I'd mix the colours up, and install turning at both ends so I could always run locos tender first. Mostly to annoy the parasitic photographer types who trespass in the neighbours field and don't buy a ticket, but still have the brass neck to whinge about what gets run. A much easier (and cheaper) way of upsetting photographers is to adopt the NNR trick of running an unexpected diseasel instead of the advertised steam engine. I'm sure it's the scourge of all preserved railways, but there are usually a handful of photographers that think the world revolves around them and are usually not averse to shoving others out of the way (and worse)... One of my neighbours (part of the aforementioned retired gold braid/big hat brigade) told me of a chap that travelled some distance to Sheringham to photograph something or other only to find that the only thing "in steam" was the two car DMU. Apparently before storming off. he spat at the DMU and gave one of the doors a hefty kick... Nice. Note that I'm not anti-photographer, I'm just anti-moron... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted July 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2015 Maybe the NNR attracts them - there were some pretty ill- mannered ones there when I visited last summer. They weren't travelling but didn't seem to mind telling people who were to get out of the way, before walking in front of other people's shots. People often talk here about young people's lack of maners, but these two were well into the 60s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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