Thoughts please - do I need a fiddle yard?

[MartynJPearson]

Hi,

 

The house move is over, and while I still have to do a prudent amount of DIY to make sure that the better half doesn't think that I am shirking, I can at least now start to think about my layout.

 

I have a 12' x 12' office, in which I've got planning permission for a layout (The actual words were "Well, it's your room so I guess you can do what you want, but it's not how I thought it would end up looking." I took that as a go-ahead).

 

I'm thinking of an around the wall layout, with each board being between 12 - 18" deep. One thought is to have the board on one wall deeper, with the extra depth accommodating a fiddle yard, but as I am using DCC another thought came to mind.

 

Rather than a fiddle yard, I thought I could have two more circuits on the outside of the layout, i.e. closest to the wall. These would be hidden by a backscene, but with sufficient crossovers to form passing loops, I wondered if that might work for train storage. I'm modelling modern image, so there is no real manipulation of trains "out of sight", apart from maybe running a loco from one end to the other. Trains I need to accommodate vary - an 8 car HST set, 10 or so TEA tankers, and around 16 MGRs at the long end, down to two car DMUs / Sprinters at the other.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Martyn

[Ray H]

Have you thought of using cassettes that form part of the continuous run but can also facilitate the exchange of trains as required?

[edcayton]

For full-length HST's? I think they would be far too difficult to handle. ISTR that something similar to the OP's idea was used on the N gauge California coast layout built by RMWebber Roundhouse,although "inside out" compared to what he wants here.

 

Ed

 

California coast and Roundhouse easily found in the search facility. I'm sure Ian (RH) will give advice.

[Kris]

Fiddle yards can take many forms. I would consider 3 lines rather than 2 as it would give more flexibility. 

[Dungrange]

How would you get access to the tracks behind the back scene in the event of a derailment?

 

Apart from that, I see no reason why you couldn't do as you propose, although you will have to draw up a plan and then carefully think about how it would operate it.  With sufficient crossovers between your visible and hidden circuits, you may find that you have rather a lot of point-work required.  In particular, you will probably have a lot more diamond crossings that you would with a more traditional fiddle yard.

[DCB]

The hidden loops sounds like a really good idea.  A cheap Web Cam and monitor, or several, can show where the trains are. I operate a layout with hidden loops with Peco code 100 3ft radius live frog points and I get very few derailments.  Far fewer than the dead end fiddle roads.   obviously you need access but a retaining wall with a roadway over can be a good scenic break, lift the road or the wall for access.

maybe 3 lines with crossovers, dont go too complicated with scissors and avoid sharp radius points and it should be fine

 

My over complicated unfinished loft layout has hidden loops off a clockwise continuous run with two triangular junctions so trains can run either clockwise or anticlockwise round the layout. Like I said its a nightmare! Nineteen years after starting its still not even running. Even for Historic non Modern image doing your fiddling on view in carriage sidings and marshalling or goods yards makes a lot of sense;

 

Cassettes are a joke for anything but a micro layout. Three coaches and a loco is the max practical in OO. Even my 6X4 and a bit bed layout runs six coach trains

[Ray H]

How about Y or 3-way points back to back instead of scissors style crossovers?

[gordon s]

Trying to get my head round this one.  You have 12' length to play with and allowing 6" clearance each end and then a minimum radius of 2'6" that's 6' of your 12' taken already.  The pointwork to create parallel sidings in a fiddle yard will also take up space, so I can't see how you can hold an 8 car HST set in the space available.

 

Personally, I would avoid anything hidden from view as things will always fail in the most inaccessible area. 

 

I'm sure you can create a very satisfying layout in the space you have, but may have to think carefully about long trains in the space you have.  I'm still struggling with these aspects of modelling and have 18' at my disposal.

[Ross34]

I assume you model in 4mm. 

 

I think you need to ask yourself a few questions before you start - rather than "I have 12' x 12', how do I fill it" ?

 

Do you like shunting / sitting and watching trains go by / realistic operation or maybe something very scenic?

 

How long to do you envisage the build time to be? .. and will you get bored before its complete?

 

But my opinion FWIW - full length HST and 10 TEA tankers trains?... no. .. for that switch to N gauge.

 

If its the current scene you're modelling  ("modern image" can now cover about 50 years!) a Scottish or Cornish single line type operation springs to mind. 

 

Keep the track plan as simple as possible - do you actually need a station for example. If you keep train lengths to dmu and maybe 8 to 10 wagons (which means you can still run large locos) a fiddle yard could be accommodated... an "out n back" rather than "roundy round" as somebody else has suggested also merits serious consideration IMHO

 

Portchullin or Glenuig are great examples of modelling restraint yet are still interesting and convincing.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 It's storage you are describing, not a fiddle yard at all, and no reason why this should not be concealed. A two level layout is eminently possible in the space available, and the bottom level with the storage roads can have small height clearance. The gradients can be pretty fierce - 1 in 40 is possible - if centre motor twin bogie drives are used, as these have ample traction. Look at 'Crewlisle' as an example in less space than you propose using. You can operate such a layout 'roundy-roundy' or 'point to point' as you choose: just because the circuit is continuous - handy for testing - doesn't mean operation has to be.

 

However, all the above hangs on reliable running, which in turn requires a stable support and a suitable standard of track laying. Wanting much the same myself, I experimented at length to see what my constructional ability required to deliver truly reliable running with the trains I proposed to operate. My formula is an absolute minimum 30" radius, no point smaller than Peco medium radius, smooth joints on curves, smooth and gentle gradient transitions for the trackwork; and for the running items, smooth drives with adequate traction, all metal wheels, free-rolling stock, careful adjustment for matching coupler height, smooth and realistic operation. I am pretty ham fisted, so if I can make it work...

 

...The actual words were "Well, it's your room so I guess you can do what you want, but it's not how I thought it would end up looking." I took that as a go-ahead...

 

Any thoughts?

That's a real problem. That needs to be sorted to her satisfaction before anything else.

[edcayton]

I disagree with Ross and Gordon. In a 12x12 room you get a circle with a circumference of 36 ft, so an 8 ft train is feasible. But make it into a looped eight you double the track mileage. A good example of this is the "loft layout" at Pecorama. If the full-length train does look too long, well I'm happy enough with five coaches representing an express.

 

I do agree about keeping it simple. I f you want to see long trains running then you don't want too much in the way of stations etc.

 

Ed

[cromptonnut]

Have you considered a U shape with a small helix at each end for accessible fiddle yard/storage tracks underneath the layout in the same vertical space?  Argos cupboards such as these can go underneath the lower level, providing storage space for whatever is required, then lengths of material can be attached to the front of the upper level (at small overlapping intervals for easy access) similar to most exhibition layouts, providing a neat and aesthetically pleasing view to anyone who may see it.

 

I would not recommend that the layout rests on top of the Argos bookcases, but a batten around the wall to rest the layout on then legs at the front equally spaced so that bookcases slide in between them. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

The basic idea is good. With fairly narrow boards it can work perfectly well so long as you do not have too high a backscene and the datum level for track is no higher than 48".

 

I do agree that three tracks is likely to work better than two and keep it simple.

[Grovenor]

 

I do agree that three tracks is likely to work better than two and keep it simple.

Might be OK in N gauge but three tracks is going to take to much width out of 12" deep boards, I would stick with two.

Regards

Keith

[Crewlisle]

 It's storage you are describing, not a fiddle yard at all, and no reason why this should not be concealed. A two level layout is eminently possible in the space available, and the bottom level with the storage roads can have small height clearance. The gradients can be pretty fierce - 1 in 40 is possible - if centre motor twin bogie drives are used, as these have ample traction. Look at 'Crewlisle' as an example in less space than you propose using. You can operate such a layout 'roundy-roundy' or 'point to point' as you choose..............

 

 

 

Thanks for the mention, but what luxury - 12ft x 12ft'!  Perhaps this might give you some ideas as you can stretch it to 12ft to allow a longer terminus, steam shed and continuous run or out and back.

 

This is my exhibition 00 gauge DCC layout 'Crewlisle' with three interconnected levels which has been on the exhibition circuit for 30 years, will be appearing at the NEC for the fifth time this year, has appeared at Alexandra Palace, Taunton and other exhibitions in the Southwest over the last few years. It represents the WCML with OLE from the mid fifties to the mid eighties.  One of the reasons it is popular with visitors is that it entertains and (subject to loco movements) I let children have a go.  I am the first to say it is not 100% prototypical, the largest or most detailed, but it has always provoked many compliments and surprise at how much can be built in a bedroom without looking too overcrowded.  I normally run a minimum of two locos and often as many as four simultaneously. The exact size of mine is 8.5ft x 7.5ft and the section missing from the bottom right hand corner is to allow the door to open!  The top baseboard is 18” wide, the RH side is 24”, LH side is 12” wide and the bottom baseboard is 27” + the 15” wide hinged section outboard.  To provide maximum operating flexability, there are hidden crossovers on the continuous run under the top LH corner.  So if you want a layout to maintain your interest why not use ‘Crewlisle’ as a starter for ten?

 

Be careful in planning to add higher or lower levels at a later date as unless you are good at woodwork, you could damage/weaken parts already built. Think what you want from your layout right from the initial planning stage. When I planned mine I wanted the WCML from my train spotting days, a terminus for 6 coach expresses, steam and diesel sheds, turntable, shunting yard, double track main line with overhead catenary and a reversing loop so the trains could leave and return from the terminus. This was almost forty years ago and I have never wanted to change it because as many visitors to the exhibitions I have attended say, "It has something for everyone".  I have lost count of the number of people who have said something along the lines of, “I was planning a terminus and fiddle yard in this space but you have changed my way of thinking!”.

 

My total stock comprises 25 steam locos (from Stanier Pacifics to 0-6-0 Jinty), 13 blue/green diesels (including black BR version of 10001 and prototype Deltic), HST, Midland Blue Pullman, 5 electrics (1 x Class 85 + 1 x Class 81, both in early BR electric blue livery, 2 x Class 86 and 1 x Class 87) APT and Thomas the Tank Engine; 65 passenger/parcel coaches; 114 wagons including, with modeller's licence, a rake of private owner coal wagons. There are representatives from the main ex-LMS classes and standards which worked the WCML and examples of diesel/electrics as seen in WCML service together with a couple of visitors. 10 locos are fitted with sound decoders.

 

The big question everyone asks is , "Where is your fiddle yard?". To me, fiddle yards are wasted space. On the reversing loop on the inside of the operating well is a 4.5ft lift out 'cartridge'. Underneath there are 14 other identical ones on a rack which can be lifted out and secured in position as part of the reversing loop. Each one can hold a complete train of, for example, a Class 47 + four Mk.1 coaches or 11 short wheelbase wagons. That is my fiddle yard. You can add as many racks as you want.  Stock is removed/replaced from the cassettes from stock storage boxes.  I have built two special ones to hold either my 6 coach expresses, 5 coach HST or 6 coach Blue Pullman.

 

Operating positions are inside operating well and at exhibitions, bottom LH corner by diesel stabling point and by turntable.  Anyone who wants further details (for example gradients, radius of curves, etc) can contact me via this forum or e-mail via RMWeb.

[kevinlms]

Hi,

 

 

I have a 12' x 12' office, in which I've got planning permission for a layout (The actual words were "Well, it's your room so I guess you can do what you want, but it's not how I thought it would end up looking." I took that as a go-ahead).

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Martyn

Do you have an idea of what SWMBO had in mind, since she saw it differently? Its a huge leap to assume that its a go ahead!

 

My wife's sister, reckons it would be much better if her other half, had a set of golf clubs as a hobby!

 

Personally I believe, every man ought to be able to select his own hobby & time, assuming the budget & space allows.

[Graham Walters]

I agree that 'N' would be a better option in that size room, I have a 12 x 8 shed and started out using 00, but soon realised that the available space gets swallowed up far too quickly "to look right", far easier to build in 'N' which enables you to get everything in.

 

'N' and DCC would also allow you to dispense with a fiddle yard and have a scenic marshalling yard, great for storage and shunting

[MartynJPearson]

Hi again,

 

Sorry for not replying sooner, that's down to the aforementioned DIY Thanks for the comments, there's certainly some food for thought there. At this stage, I'm at the early phases of planning so it is all really helpful, thank you!

 

Sadly I don't have a 12 x 12 room to fill, it's one that needs to act as an office as well, hence the round the wall approach. I had discounted any sort of helix or incline through trying to stick to the "keep it simple" mantra but I will think again as I can see the advantages on offer. I am tied to 00 though, over the years I've collected a lot of stock that I really couldn't bear to part with. Again, my thinking was the round the wall approach would give a decent run even for the longer trains.

 

I guess the best thing to do is to map it all out on lining paper and / or AnyRail. I will of course share my progress.

 

In terms of approval, as long as the room can be used as an office as well, that's fine as long as I take full responsibility for dusting and hoovering in that room. Now, off to google those robotic cleaners....

 

Thanks once again,

Martyn

[cromptonnut]

Helixes (Helii?) can be tricky to build properly but there are a number of ready-made kit options available to you nowadays.  Admittedly more expensive than "do it yourself" but a lot less grief!

[Izzy]

 

If this room also has to be a usable office, while I would think a round the wall approach could be a good idea if set at the right height using cantilever wall supports so that desks, cabinets etc could be placed underneath as needed, perhaps the first aspect to consider is how would you get into the room? Either a lifting section would be required, or a duck-under. The first would impact on the whole layout design, but the latter may prove un-workable/not acceptable for a room also an office, re ease of access with anything, people, furniture, any item.

 

Izzy

[kevinlms]

I agree that 'N' would be a better option in that size room, I have a 12 x 8 shed and started out using 00, but soon realised that the available space gets swallowed up far too quickly "to look right", far easier to build in 'N' which enables you to get everything in.

 

'N' and DCC would also allow you to dispense with a fiddle yard and have a scenic marshalling yard, great for storage and shunting

Not a better option, if like me, you simply don't like it. Too small.

[cromptonnut]

N is great for boring boxes on wheels hauling lengthy but monotonously similar wagons or set of coaches, which let's face it is truly what modern image is all about.

 

[Admin - original content criticising another member removed]

 

I'll steer clear of criticising another modeller's work, but if you think N gauge (and modern image) is "boring" then there are a lot of good modellers you have just upset.

 

There are plenty of great steam era N gauge layouts (which presumably don't have these "boring boxes on wheels" you decry) as well as plenty of great "modern image" layouts in N gauge that can be seen on this forum and elsewhere.

[Zomboid]

If long trains in the scenery is the aim, then N is the answer. Not for me though, HO is as small as I can manage... (at least for now).

I don't subscribe to the view that a FY is essential to all layouts. If you only want to operate a couple of trains then staging/ FYs are a waste of space in my opinion (Which is mostly Mr. Mindheim's, to be honest).

Of course, If you want to operate lots then you'll need somewhere to park them.

In that kind of space I'd be looking at a shelf layout round 2 or 3 walls, from a (part of a) classification yard to a switching district, the whole of which would be scenic.

[ParkeNd]

I have found that on a two track roundy roundy then a passing loop at the front of the layout comprising three additional sections of track serves very well - and without them running is limited. The passing loops allow three trains to be paused whilst others run into and out of the station. With no such facility then running options are boring. The passing loops on my layout are ballasted and have scenery - a traditional fiddle yard tends to be bare, inconveniently sited, and wastes a lot of space.

 

But - yes - you do need something to allow the interchange of trains however you achieve it.

 

In OO with mainline express steam locos hauling even 5 coach trains you will need to devote about 8 ft 6 ins to the passing loops - but this is a function of your chosen scale in a limited space rather than the concept of fiddle yard/passing loops and you will need to live with any limitation it imposes.

[S&DWatty]

Hi Martyn, there's loads of good advice above.  For what it's worth my solution was to have only the platform ends of the station visible and scenic with the station overall roof (Bournemouth) acting as scenic break one end of the fiddle yard and a road overbridge the other end.  This arrangement allows for trains to be stopped in a platform or off-scene.  I have got 4 roads available (platofrms for the outer two nly- again imagine Bournemouth pre- simplification) so can have a max of 4 full trains on the layouts' main double track circuit and a branch train in the branch station.  With DCC I regularly have 4 trains tail chasing and shunt the branch goods yard.  Everything is on one level for simplicity and the longest off-scene loop will hold a 6 coach train plus mainline engine, the shortest 4 coach plus engine only.  The off-scene area is at the shorter room side (where the door needs to open) and on a curve planned to be no steeper than third radius.

 

Hope this helps!

 

dave