?Cornish Riviera Express? in the 1950s running in two parts

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

In the mid 1950’s the ‘Cornish Riviera Express’ was the 10.30 off Paddington. On summer Saturdays there was often too much demand for it so a relief 10.35 ‘Cornish Riviera Express’ was run. Often each would be King hauled.

The main train did not call at Newton Abbot and the train loco was taken off on a through road at Newton Abbot (to be substituted by a pair of locos over the Devon Banks), but it was added to the following relief portion and if the second portion was also ‘King’ hauled, as it usually was, one had the spectacle of double headed ‘Kings’ between Newton Abbot and Plymouth.

However the following was printed in the Railway Observer in 1953 (sorry I do not have the issue number) but it would be Aug or Sept.

 

“The practice of changing the engine of the

" Cornish Riviera Express " at Newton

Abbot on Saturdays for the non-stop run to

Truro, and of sending the original engine

on as pilot to the second part has come back

with the summer services, and has again

produced the running of two Kings together ;

on July 19th 6019 piloting 6002.”

 

So the question I have is as follows:

Is this correct or an (unusual) error in the RO where Truro should read Plymouth?

If it is correct and the ‘Cornish Riviera Express’ did not stop at Plymouth North Road to drop off passengers, would the two Kings have enough coal to reach Truro (neither had been replenished at Newton Abbot so had run from OOC) and would they be permitted to do so by weight restriction on the Saltash Bridge?  One operational solution would be it stopping short of the station for loco changing so the Kings did not carry on to Truro but did this really happen?

 

Tony

[Fat Controller]

Weren't 'Kings' Double Red restricted, and thus barred west of Plymouth? In that case, I can imagine the locos might be changed adjacent to Laira, if there was a convenient loop. 'Non-Stop' quite often meant no stopping for commercial reasons, though there might be one for operational purposes.

[Rail-Online]

Brian W - yes I too though they were barred, and yes there were loops around Laira depot but I have never seen pics of engine changing there (unlike North Road).

 

 

 

It has been suggested that the MAIN train ran non-stop through to Truro (with the pair of engines put on at NA), but the relief stopped at North Road to have the pair of Kings replaced.

 

Gosh this is complicated 60 years after the event!

 

Can anyone clarify/confirm this?

 

 

Cheers Tony

[Kris]

Kings were barred from the Royal Albert Bridge so either they were taken off at Plymouth, possibly not in a station so it could be called a non stop run or the train engines were not Kings. 

[chrisf]

My understanding [term used cautiously] is that the 10.30 discarded its King at NA and took on a pair of smaller engines, perhaps Halls/Granges, for the run into Cornwall.  The King then dropped on the front of the 10.35 and piloted its King over the banks to Plymouth where both were replaced, again by a smaller engine.

 

Chris 

[edcayton]

I thought the Cornish Riviera called at Par.

 

Ed

[Adrian Wintle]

I thought the Cornish Riviera called at Par.

 

Ed

 

Presumably the second section did most of the stopping in Cornwall. As chrisf suggests, the probable scenario would be that the 10:30 took on smaller locos at NA and then ran to Truro, St. Erth, and Penzance, while the second part took on the second King and ran to Plymouth, changing to smaller loco(s) to run as the stopper through Cornwall.

 

Truro (Falmouth),  St. Erth (St. Ives), and Penzance were the prestige destinations, so it makes sense that the first portion of the train was geared to serve them.

 

Adrian

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Public times for 1953 (SO) were:

 

Padd 10.30 Cornish Riviera Express (TC Padd - St Ives & Penzance; RC to St Ives)

 

Truro 16.28/32

 

St Erth 17.12  (dep 17.15 for Lelant 17.18, Carbis Bay 17.27 and St Ives 17.35)

 

Penzance 17.25

 

 

Padd 10.35 (TC Padd - Falmouth & Penzance; RC to Penzance)

 

Truro 16.45/50 (dep 16.55 for Perranwell 17.08, Penryn 17.20, Penmere Platform 17.25 and Falmouth 17.30)

 

Gwinear Road 17.15

 

Penzance 17.40

[Rail-Online]

Thanks Guys,

 

You help is greatly appreciated

 

Tony

[brianusa]

Somewhere it is written that at one time engine changes were made at Keyham.  Why there, I have no idea; anyone else read the same book thing?

 

Brian

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I believe that Keyham was the furthest west that "Kings" were allowed to run to.

 

Some other thoughts:

 

10.30 Down King to NA

Hall + Grange (or Manor, or other similar combination) NA - PZ

x2 45XX took the St Ives portion (the main train) from St Erth

 

10.35 Down King to NA

King + King (off 10.30) NA - PLY

Hall + Grange (or Manor, or other similar combination) PLY - PZ

Not sure what worked the Falmouth portion from Truro

[The Stationmaster]

I believe that Keyham was the furthest west that "Kings" were allowed to run to.

 

 

Correct

[rab]

Having dug out Stephen Austin's book on the CRE to add some info to the thread on St. Ives trains, I've read through some of it again. For what it's worth he quotes:

Although the public timetable listed the trains as nonstop Padd to Ply, (Truro for 130 on Sat), in fact they all stopped at N.Abbot to attach (or detach) a second engine. Not advertising the stop meant it did not have to take place at a platform. On summer Saturdays train 130 could stop beside Laira depot to change engines and crews.

On winter Saturdays train 130 took on two fresh engines and crews at N.Abbot and the relieved engine then assisted train 131 (the relief) through to Plymouth. On summer Saturdays this could not happen as the assisting engine had to run through to Truro so had to be of a type permitted to cross the Royal Albert Bridge.

Elsewhere in the book, which is based on a summer CRE relief down run, he refers to a Grange being added at N.Abbot and another Grange taking the train from Plymouth into Cornwall.

One amusing (supposedly true) incident referred to in the book is an occasion when the King on an up CRE failed close to Paddington. As the crew left the failed loco they took the CRE headboard with them and placed it on the front of the relief engine, a 5700 pannier!

 

All info quoted from 'Cornish Riviera Express - From The Footplate' by Stephen Austin, published by Ian Allan, ISBN 0-7110-2536-3

[railway mad ant]

Can any one out there help me. My mother has been saying to me for a while that she once stood on the footplate of the Cornish Riviera. She seems to remember that it was in September 1956. I would like to know - if possible - the actual locomotive(s) that headed this express?

[Gwiwer]

The two-portion Cornish Riviera Express had a spilt stopping pattern.  The respective portions served different stations other than a very few key stops in Cornwall.  

 

Reading the original quote carefully it appears to me that the King from the 10.30 was removed at Newton Abbot (unadvertised stop) in favour of two smaller locos which took the train through to Penzance first stop Truro.  The King so released was added to the front of the 10.35 and both those were removed at (or in the vicinity of) Plymouth as they were banned farther west under normal circumstances and certainly in pairs.  

 

The 10.35 was the relief train so served the less busy and perhaps less prestigious towns the length of Cornwall whereas the 10.30 was geared to getting the most number of people to the farthest west holiday resorts in the shortest possible time.

 

In much more recent years a similar situation has existed.  In summer 1973 for example the by then 11.30 Cornish Riviera Limited was booked first stop Plymouth (but called for a crew change at Exeter St. Davids IIRC) then only at St. Austell, Truro, St. Erth and Penzance,  The 10.56 relief as advertised as first stop Totnes (again changing crews before then) then Plymouth and all major stations.  More recently still two HST sets have departed close together with the first one non-stop to Plymouth (which it achieved on the accelerated schedule) then making fewer stops and reaching Penzance in as little as 4h 30m - still the fastest ever advertised service - while the later served most intermediate stations from Taunton taking over 5 hours.  I know that 4h 30m timing to have been achieved and likewise the non-stop run to Plymouth.  

[Rail-Online]

Can any one out there help me. My mother has been saying to me for a while that she once stood on the footplate of the Cornish Riviera. She seems to remember that it was in September 1956. I would like to know - if possible - the actual locomotive(s) that headed this express?

Depends where she went in the cab at. If Paddington it would most likely be a King. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_6000_ClassIf at anywhere else it could be any smaller GWR loco.

Tony

[The Stationmaster]

Having dug out Stephen Austin's book on the CRE to add some info to the thread on St. Ives trains, I've read through some of it again. For what it's worth he quotes:

Although the public timetable listed the trains as nonstop Padd to Ply, (Truro for 130 on Sat), in fact they all stopped at N.Abbot to attach (or detach) a second engine. Not advertising the stop meant it did not have to take place at a platform. On summer Saturdays train 130 could stop beside Laira depot to change engines and crews.

 

All info quoted from 'Cornish Riviera Express - From The Footplate' by Stephen Austin, published by Ian Allan, ISBN 0-7110-2536-3

Certainly couldn't change engines 'beside Laira depot' as the gradient was far too steep and the line there was in the block section between Laira Jcn and Lipson Jcn which would have involved a long movement in the wrong direction to get the fresh engine onto the train.  Even if the gradient hadn't prevented use of that site the time taken would have been considerable as a Wrong Line Order would have to be taken from the train to Lipson Jcn 'box in order to authorise the move of the fresh engine onto the train.  

 

It would however have been feasible to change engines on a train standing at Laira Jcn's Inner Home Signal (i.e. Tavistock Jcn side of the tramway crossing) where the line was level and, of course, wholly within Laira Jcn's Station Limits.  But it would have been a time consuming job as the engine going to shed would have to run over a route common with the engine coming onto the train unless the latter was stood ready in the auto-trailer sidings on the Up side.

 

(In many respects it would have been quicker and easier to do the change at either North Road or Keyham.   And one has to wonder quite why 'Kings' were authorised to run as far as Keyham?)

[Coach bogie]

At times the Up service, when in various sections, one part ran non stop through Plymouth and changed engines to a King at Brent, the King having run light engine from Laira

 

Mike Wiltshire

[railway mad ant]

Depends where she went in the cab at. If Paddington it would most likely be a King. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_6000_ClassIf at anywhere else it could be any smaller GWR loco.

Tony

Thanks Tony I did suspect such. It would have been nice to know which King it may have been. But without being there I suppose it would be impossible to know unless someone unearths a picture. My mum was only 3 or 4 at the time. Thanks again

 

Anthony