Euston pre-electrification

[Joseph_Pestell]

Cornish Train Jez's thread "This is Euston" (much recommended) has a post with some great photos of an EM layout based on Camden Bank which I remember seeing a few years back in one of the magazines.

 

Got me thinking about how the station was worked in pre-25kV days.

 

I know that it was laid out on a very traditional scheme with main line arrivals on one side and main line departures on the other, with the suburban/outer suburban platforms between the two. What I don't know (and I no longer have a copy of the trackplan) is the extent to which some longer distance trains could have accessed the Departure platforms or left from the Arrival platforms. Or was everything shunted via the subway over to the other side? Which trains were dealt with at the western carriage shed and which sent back out to Stonebridge Park?

 

Also, so far as I can see (old-maps.co.uk), any carriages to be stored in the east side carriage shed would have had to be propelled out from the station. So was this just used for outer suburban trains?

 

So far, I have not had much luck on t'internet. But perhaps someone can direct me to a good link or to some good books. SRS (surprisingly) and signalbox.org have not got anything, although signalbox.org has a great drawing of the junctions at Primrose Hill (Camden no 2 box) which would make a great layout!

[30851]

The book "The Great British Railway Station Euston" by Irwell Press (K, J, Ellaway) lists all the platforms mentioning what they were for and how to trains got in and out of them.

 

 

Rob

[stewartingram]

I seem to recall that the old Eagle comic produced one of its famed cut-away centre spreads on Camden Bank.I might even have a copy of it somewhere, I believe it could also be found on the net somewhere?

 

Stewart

[luckymucklebackit]

The 1952 resignalling diagram can be found here http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/ArchiveSignals/brmr.php the file is downloaded as a pdf, click in 620G 1852.  The diagram shows that arriving trains  from the up fast and slow can only access platforms 1 - 9, but theoretically any platform can access the down fast and slow

 

Jim

[phil-b259]

Cornish Train Jez's thread "This is Euston" (much recommended) has a post with some great photos of an EM layout based on Camden Bank which I remember seeing a few years back in one of the magazines.

 

Got me thinking about how the station was worked in pre-25kV days.

 

I know that it was laid out on a very traditional scheme with main line arrivals on one side and main line departures on the other, with the suburban/outer suburban platforms between the two. What I don't know (and I no longer have a copy of the trackplan) is the extent to which some longer distance trains could have accessed the Departure platforms or left from the Arrival platforms. Or was everything shunted via the subway over to the other side? Which trains were dealt with at the western carriage shed and which sent back out to Stonebridge Park?

 

Also, so far as I can see (old-maps.co.uk), any carriages to be stored in the east side carriage shed would have had to be propelled out from the station. So was this just used for outer suburban trains?

 

So far, I have not had much luck on t'internet. But perhaps someone can direct me to a good link or to some good books. SRS (surprisingly) and signalbox.org have not got anything, although signalbox.org has a great drawing of the junctions at Primrose Hill (Camden no 2 box) which would make a great layout!

 

Its worth noting that the LMS in the mid 30s were preparing a scheme to to totally demolish the station and start again as even they realised the layout with the great hall and the legacy from having separate 'arrival' and 'departure' sides (even if they were no longer used as such) was a serious inconvenience.

[Joseph_Pestell]

A bit more surfing - just a question of finding the right words to enter in Google - gave me quite a lot of info from postings in railforum. That includes a diagram which confirms the above points.

 

I had quite forgotten that the suburban traffic was handled on the east side of the station (where it is now having been primarily parcels platforms) on platforms 4 & 5 ( so between the mainline arrivals platforms 1-3 & 6.

 

The East Side (up) shed was indeed used just for suburban and outer suburban trains but I had not realised that it was fitted with 4-rail electrification.

 

I guess that one would need a Working Timetable to establish whether any main line trains departed from the low numbered platforms, i.e. were turned around without being serviced at the carriage sidings.

 

Not for the first time, I have found that railway-produced diagrams do not match OS maps. On one point, it is quite clear that the OS map is wrong but I would like to see a few photos to confirm some of the other turnout locations as the diagram is not to scale.

[30851]

"Not for the first time, I have found that railway-produced diagrams do not match OS maps. On one point, it is quite clear that the OS map is wrong but I would like to see a few photos to confirm some of the other turnout locations as the diagram is not to scale." -

 

the 1952  re-signaling mentioned above included a complete re-organization of the track and extensions to the platforms. It may be the OS maps show the older layout. I should mention that the book I listed above describes the platforms (and problems) as of 1944 - it possibly comes from a document trying to get approval for the re-signaling.

 

Rob

[Joseph_Pestell]

"Not for the first time, I have found that railway-produced diagrams do not match OS maps. On one point, it is quite clear that the OS map is wrong but I would like to see a few photos to confirm some of the other turnout locations as the diagram is not to scale." -

 

the 1952  re-signaling mentioned above included a complete re-organization of the track and extensions to the platforms. It may be the OS maps show the older layout. I should mention that the book I listed above describes the platforms (and problems) as of 1944 - it possibly comes from a document trying to get approval for the re-signaling.

 

Rob

 

To some extent that could well be true. It's a 1954 map so quite likely revised before the 1952 reorganisation which is what I have diagrams for.

 

What is interesting me is the location of the crossovers between the Down Slow and the Down Main. OS shows them under the covered way, diagram has them a bit further north.

 

But one must be wrong whatever the date. To get ECS workings from Willesden (that had not used the rathole) across from the Up Slow to the Backing Sidings (Edit: Up Engine Line No 1) would require two diamond crossings. The OS only shows one with the link being between the Down Slow and the Backing Sidings.

[DaveF]

 

 

Not for the first time, I have found that railway-produced diagrams do not match OS maps. On one point, it is quite clear that the OS map is wrong but I would like to see a few photos to confirm some of the other turnout locations as the diagram is not to scale.

 

OS maps often show incorrect track layouts - perhaps because the surveyors are not railwaymen, also some detail can get lost because even the 25" maps are quite small for track plans.

 

Many years ago I worked in the office of a large country estate in the East Midlands as a holiday job and took the opportunity to have a good look at OS maps of land they owned.  I think every railway station had an error in either the track plan, signal post positions or both.

 

David

[30851]

To some extent that could well be true. It's a 1954 map so quite likely revised before the 1952 reorganisation which is what I have diagrams for.

 

What is interesting me is the location of the crossovers between the Down Slow and the Down Main. OS shows them under the covered way, diagram has them a bit further north.

 

But one must be wrong whatever the date. To get ECS workings from Willesden (that had not used the rathole) across from the Up Slow to the Backing Sidings would require two diamond crossings. The OS only shows one with the link being between the Down Slow and the Backing Sidings.

I don't think I have ever seen a diagram of the pre-1952 layout so I am not sure what was there. However the book does say that ECS could be brought down to the Up Slow to Euston Box #4 and then moved over there to the Up Engine Line 1. Euston Box #4 became Euston Carriage Sidings Box in 1952 - so I presume that connection would be (or close to) the same one as shown on the 1952 diagram.

 

Rob

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't think I have ever seen a diagram of the pre-1952 layout so I am not sure what was there. However the book does say that ECS could be brought down to the Up Slow to Euston Box #4 and then moved over there to the Up Engine Line 1. Euston Box #4 became Euston Carriage Sidings Box in 1952 - so I presume that connection would be (or close to) the same one as shown on the 1952 diagram.

 

Rob

 

Yes, it looks as though that was unchanged. The turnout from the Up Slow would have been immediately after crossing the underpass and below the Mornington St bridge. Quite a feature visually even if it saw little use as the "rathole" was the preferred route to avoid blocking down trains departing and also because it had access to the four "Backing Roads".

[Joseph_Pestell]

Almost a year, I see, since last posting on this thread. But I still have it in mind to base a layout on this area. So to work out an operating timetable (probably not the whole 24 hours) and what is needed by way of fiddleyard capacity at the "country" end, a couple of questions:

 

Just prior to electrification, was all the outer suburban traffic still steam-hauled?

And ditto, all  the station pilots moving trains to/from carriage sidings?

Were all long-distance (i.e. at least as far as Northampton/Birmingham) serviced in carriage sidings or were some simply turned around, departing from a platform on the arrivals side?

[The Stationmaster]

Almost a year, I see, since last posting on this thread. But I still have it in mind to base a layout on this area. So to work out an operating timetable (probably not the whole 24 hours) and what is needed by way of fiddleyard capacity at the "country" end, a couple of questions:

 

Just prior to electrification, was all the outer suburban traffic still steam-hauled?

And ditto, all  the station pilots moving trains to/from carriage sidings?

Were all long-distance (i.e. at least as far as Northampton/Birmingham) serviced in carriage sidings or were some simply turned around, departing from a platform on the arrivals side?

 

Some (?eventually most?) outer suburban trains were definitely diesel hauled several years prior to electrification - Derby Sulzer Type 2s (later Class 24) and the same went for coach pilots but if my memory is working reasonably well some steam lasted on coach pilot working to/from Willesden etc right up to the end.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Rugby and Northampton ceased steam operation at the start of the 1965 Summer timetable. Bletchley followed suit a few weeks later and Willesden lost its steam locos at the end of the Summer 1965 timetable.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm thinking of being a bit flexible in the time period portrayed (1955-65) so that looks like a mix including some Class 2 diesels is reasonable. That is helpful in terms of what is readily available in N.

 

I was also pleased to find some photos on the internet showing BR Standard 4MTs as I had thought that it was the preserve of ex-LMS types.

 

There was also a photo of a Jinty on ecs movements which quite surprised me as I thought that was done by ex-LMS Class 3 2-6-2Ts.

[LMS2968]

I'm thinking of being a bit flexible in the time period portrayed (1955-65) so that looks like a mix including some Class 2 diesels is reasonable. That is helpful in terms of what is readily available in N.

 

I was also pleased to find some photos on the internet showing BR Standard 4MTs as I had thought that it was the preserve of ex-LMS types.

 

There was also a photo of a Jinty on ecs movements which quite surprised me as I thought that was done by ex-LMS Class 3 2-6-2Ts.

From memory, a swop was made between the Watford shed and somewhere on the Southern (alas, can't remember where) so that Watford's Fairburn tanks joined their comrades south of the Thames, and the Standards took their place. They were not well received: they were in poor condition unlike the recently departed Fairburns, and there was a wailing and gnashing of teeth!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Well that's very useful in an N context as well. I had not so far found any photos with Fairburns.

 

Another question if I may. Between the Down Carriage Sidings and the Down Main were four roads described as "Backing Roads". Does that mean that the train loco came down from Camden or Willesden and then propelled its stock from these roads into a departure platform? I had rather assumed that all trains would be hauled into a departure road by a pilot, not least because that loco could then offer assistance up the bank. But that might apply only to the heaviest trains.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I remember travelling to Euston in the early 1960s behind 46240 on the early morning train from New St. Many of the tanks on view were Jintys or Standard 2-6-4s. Around that time I remember seeing 12 of the LMS Pacifics through Rugby in one 8-hour visit. Birmingham trains in the late 1950s were often Bushbury Jubilees, with Coronations appearing from the Camden end as they were displaced by diesels and electrics. The Twins and Triplets also appeared regularly around 1955-60, singly when on the Birmingham run in the morning.

 

Edit:- Possibly crossing two visits, the Standard tanks would have been about 1959, both Watford and Bletchley having quite a few up to then. 46240 must have been about 1963.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Backing Out roads were used for propelling stock out of the station. I think it was usually stock dealt with at the carriage sheds on either side of the line.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The Backing Out roads were used for propelling stock out of the station. I think it was usually stock dealt with at the carriage sheds on either side of the line.

Well that's what one would expect it to mean. But if you propelled a train out of the arrival platforms to these roads, it would block the whole station throat. Avoiding that was surely the main reason to have the underpass.

[Fat Controller]

I'm thinking of being a bit flexible in the time period portrayed (1955-65) so that looks like a mix including some Class 2 diesels is reasonable. That is helpful in terms of what is readily available in N.

 

I was also pleased to find some photos on the internet showing BR Standard 4MTs as I had thought that it was the preserve of ex-LMS types.

 

There was also a photo of a Jinty on ecs movements which quite surprised me as I thought that was done by ex-LMS Class 3 2-6-2Ts.

Somewhere, I have seen photos of EE Type 1s on outer-suburban working during the period in question.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Well that's what one would expect it to mean. But if you propelled a train out of the arrival platforms to these roads, it would block the whole station throat. Avoiding that was surely the main reason to have the underpass.

Most trains arriving at the low numbered platforms were main line workings going to Willesden for servicing or locals going to the Up side shed. The Backing Out roads seemed to get more use from trains arriving in the middle and going to the Down side shed.

[Grovenor]

 

The Backing Out roads were used for propelling stock out of the station. I think it was usually stock dealt with at the carriage sheds on either side of the line.

in the '60s at least, IIRC, they were used for arriving ECS for Down trains that backed from those roads into the departure platforms, which was why they were on the Down side. The carriages would be brought in from Wembley etc and berthed in the backing out roads. Then the loco would drop on from Camden and back the set into the platform. The '60s resignalling was designed for that, I always assumed it was the same arrangement before.

Regards

[LMS2968]

Somewhere, I have seen photos of EE Type 1s on outer-suburban working during the period in question.

I remember at least one appearing in BRILL many, many years back.

[roythebus]

D8000 was a 1A loco. I'll have to consult my spotting notebooks which still survive, though undated. Yes, the type 1's were used on suburban trains, though not in winter as they didn't have steam heat!

 

To re-tell a story of the backing out roads (west side carriage roads) in the 1970's in my year on the LNWR, a train was being propelled back into the platform with a new shunter supervising the movement from the rear brake van. He was told to apply the brake when the train was near the stops. He did, the train hit the stops.  When the driver "had words" with him, "why didn't you put the f****g brake on?".  "De ting won't turn any further".   He'd put the handbrake on, not the air/vacuum brake which of course would actually have stopped the train.

 

I remember seeing a BR standard tank on ecs at Stonebridge a while after electric services had started, but wouldn't know what date.