'Cambrian Street'

Andy WD · February 28, 2022

On 27/02/2022 at 19:30, GWR57xx said:

Hi Bob,

A few shots of Didcot:

You have to also take into account the 'non-scale' sleeper and rail heights. If you look at the real thing and the model trackwork they are miles apart in depth.
I'd just go with the old axiom, "If it looks right...."

The Stationmaster · March 1, 2022

14 hours ago, Andy WD said:

You have to also take into account the 'non-scale' sleeper and rail heights. If you look at the real thing and the model trackwork they are miles apart in depth.
I'd just go with the old axiom, "If it looks right...."

The depth of the track is irrelevant except in respect of what is or isn't stting on and the part that plays in establishing the position of the railhead. The key area in this particular context is the comparative height of the railhead in relation to the foot of the pedestrian doorway. And then the comparative height of whatever - be it an arch or a beam - above the railhead which helps establish the overall representation of the proportions of that part of the building.

Harlequin · March 1, 2022

On 26/02/2022 at 19:56, BobM said:

Cheers Phil,

This is with a 5 plank wagon (albeit a private one), will probably go ahead and see what transpires?

Regards always

Bob

In light of what @The Stationmaster says, then, this looks pretty good! I didn;t realise there was so much variety in the design of these buildings.

And from your photo, the apparently low height of the wagon portal in the model now makes sense - it's a "Slough" style coaling stage.

BobM · March 3, 2022

Welcome to 'meteorological spring'.......

Hope to post a bit of progress on the coal stage project soon...?

As I have been a bit 'off colour' last week or so, so I have not done anything further, but should make some positive steps in the not too distant future.....

Regards always

Bob

Edited April 7, 2022 by BobM

BobM · March 3, 2022

Evening all,

Just an operational question.

I am assuming that locomotives were not allowed to enter the coal stage building?

Regards always

Bob

Harlequin · March 3, 2022

8 minutes ago, BobM said:

Evening all,

Just an operational question.

I am assuming that locomotives were not allowed to enter the coal stage building?

Regards always

Bob

No. There’s usually a cast iron sign on the wall saying, “Engines must not pass this point” or words to that effect . The exact wording varies.

BobM · March 3, 2022

Hi

Presume that the wagons were propelled up the slope, once the brakes applied uncoupled on the flat? To be then ‘pinch barred’ into the building. Emptied then again ‘pinch barred’ back out for the loco to pick up and take back down to the sidings?

The trap point protecting from the possibility of a runway?

Regards always

Bob

Edited March 3, 2022 by BobM

BobM · March 3, 2022

Hi

Noticed on GWR’s kind posting this sign

and in the Slough image

Regards always

Bob

Harlequin · March 3, 2022

1 hour ago, BobM said:

Hi

Presume that the wagons were propelled up the slope, once the brakes applied uncoupled on the flat? To be then ‘pinch barred’ into the building. Emptied then again ‘pinch barred’ back out for the loco to pick up and take back down to the sidings?

The trap point protecting from the possibility of a runway?

Regards always

Bob

I don’t know. That’s a really good question.

I believe that the track on the other side of the shed was still rising gently and that must have been done to help operations in some way.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Harlequin

Tortuga · March 3, 2022

52 minutes ago, BobM said:

Hi

Presume that the wagons were propelled up the slope, once the brakes applied uncoupled on the flat? To be then ‘pinch barred’ into the building. Emptied then again ‘pinch barred’ back out for the loco to pick up and take back down to the sidings?

The trap point protecting from the possibility of a runway?

Regards always

Bob

Might a reach wagon (or two) have been used to push loaded loco coal wagons through the shed?

Then would the gentle slope mentioned by @Harlequinbe used to let the wagons roll back through the shed, stopping each inside the shed for unloading?

GWR57xx · March 4, 2022

17 hours ago, BobM said:

Hi

Presume that the wagons were propelled up the slope, once the brakes applied uncoupled on the flat? To be then ‘pinch barred’ into the building. Emptied then again ‘pinch barred’ back out for the loco to pick up and take back down to the sidings?

The trap point protecting from the possibility of a runway?

Regards always

Bob

That’s a pretty good description Bob.

I know I’ve read this recently, I just can’t remember where at the moment but I’ll check and confirm my references when I find it.

A ‘typical’ coal stage had a slope up to the stage at 1 in 35, then the ‘flat’ section through the stage and beyond still had a slope but only 1 in 80. This was to assist wagons to be manually rolled through the stage using pinch bars.

Once a wagon had been emptied it was rolled down the slope on the brakes, stopping above the trap point.

There was typically room for five full wagons on each delivery. So two in the stage and three beyond.

Obviously larger stages would accommodate more.

edit:

E. Lyons, Great Western Engine Sheds 1947 p21 gives the gradients as above and also says the level (1:80) section was about 100 feet long.

Chris Hawkins & George Reeve, Great Western Engine Sheds London Division, p346 says: “The first empty wagon was led carefully down the bank and the brakes set firmly on. Successive wagons were coupled against it, and several slowly developing runaways, due to less than perfect brakes, were halted by frantic remedial action. The catch points at the base of the coal stage caught those wagons that eluded the coal stage men”.

Edited March 4, 2022 by GWR57xx

GWR57xx · March 4, 2022

Another couple of thoughts:

Engines would always work chimney first up the slope to ensure the firebox crown was always covered with water.

I assume that the main reason for the “Engines must not pass this arch” is the sharp change of gradient which would be too much for any engine other than an 0-4-0 to accommodate and would probably cause damage. As well as to not fill the stage with smoke, making an already difficult working environment even more unpleasant?

Harlequin · March 4, 2022

3 hours ago, GWR57xx said:

That’s a pretty good description Bob.

I know I’ve read this recently, I just can’t remember where at the moment but I’ll check and confirm my references when I find it.

A ‘typical’ coal stage had a slope up to the stage at 1 in 35, then the ‘flat’ section through the stage and beyond still had a slope but only 1 in 80. This was to assist wagons to be manually rolled through the stage using pinch bars.

Once a wagon had been emptied it was rolled down the slope on the brakes, stopping above the trap point.

There was typically room for five full wagons on each delivery. So two in the stage and three beyond.

Obviously larger stages would accommodate more.

1 hour ago, GWR57xx said:

Another couple of thoughts:

Engines would always work chimney first up the slope to ensure the firebox crown was always covered with water.

I assume that the main reason for the “Engines must not pass this arch” is the sharp change of gradient which would be too much for any engine other than an 0-4-0 to accommodate and would probably cause damage. As well as to not fill the stage with smoke, making an already difficult working environment even more unpleasant?

Lyons "An historical survey of great western engine sheds 1947" gives the ramp gradients (for standard Churchward coaling stages).

I doubt that empty wagons would have been allowed down the ramp using their brakes only. I don't see how a shunter (a man) could walk alongside the wagon on the ramp and the danger of it running away from him would be too great. The trap points at the bottom of the ramp don't seem to provide enough protection to me. A runaway wagon would derail with some force, possibly doing a lot of damage.

(Is there a sharp change of gradient at the top of the ramp?)

It would be great to get some first hand knowledge from someone.

Edit: I've just looked through all the photos in the Lyons book and there are a few showing rafts of wagons standing on the slope of the ramp without a loco: Treherbert, Croess Newydd and Machynlleth (although the Machynlleth ramp is a bit different). Always a raft...

BTW: There's also a photo of a 94xx with a raft of wagons on the ramp at Wolverhampton (Oxley) with bunker-first if it's propelling up the ramp.

So I wonder if it worked like this:

Loco propels a raft of full wagons plus one reach wagon up the ramp.
The brakes on all the full wagons are pinned down and the reach wagon is uncoupled.
The loco draws the reach wagon down to the bottom of the ramp, before the trap points.
The brakes on the reach wagon are pinned down and the loco uncouples and moves off to other duties.
As wagons are emptied in the coaling stage, they are released onto the ramp, brakes partially set and allowed to roll down using the reach wagon as a temporary buffer stop.
When all wagons are empty the loco returns buffers up again and draws them away.

?

Edited March 4, 2022 by Harlequin

GWR57xx · March 4, 2022

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Lyons "An historical survey of great western engine sheds 1947" gives the ramp gradients (for standard Churchward coaling stages).

I doubt that empty wagons would have been allowed down the ramp using their brakes only. I don't see how a shunter (a man) could walk alongside the wagon on the ramp and the danger of it running away from him would be too great. The trap points at the bottom of the ramp don't seem to provide enough protection to me. A runaway wagon would derail with some force, possibly doing a lot of damage.

(Is there a sharp change of gradient at the top of the ramp?)

It would be great to get some first hand knowledge from someone.

Edit: I've just looked through all the photos in the Lyons book and there are a few showing rafts of wagons standing on the slope of the ramp without a loco: Treherbert, Croess Newydd and Machynlleth (although the Machynlleth ramp is a bit different). Always a raft...

BTW: There's also a photo of a 94xx with a raft of wagons on the ramp at Wolverhampton (Oxley) with bunker-first if it's propelling up the ramp.

So I wonder if it worked like this:

Loco propels a raft of full wagons plus one reach wagon up the ramp.

The brakes on all the full wagons are pinned down and the reach wagon is uncoupled.

The loco draws the reach wagon down to the bottom of the ramp, before the trap points.

The brakes on the reach wagon are pinned down and the loco uncouples and moves off to other duties.

As wagons are emptied in the coaling stage, they are released onto the ramp, brakes partially set and allowed to roll down using the reach wagon as a temporary buffer stop.

When all wagons are empty the loco returns buffers up again and draws them away.

?

I’ve added references to my earlier post which answer some of your questions.

BobM · March 4, 2022

All good stuff here guys thank you.

Given the limited space I have, I'm going to make a fair 'cosmetic' representation rather than a prototypical one, which'll be fine for me?

Regards always.

Bob

BobM · March 4, 2022

Found this posted in another topic - posted here for info......

...........The loaded loco coal wagons were in a coupled rake of five and pushed right to the buffers at the top of the bank. Therefore, here was no room for a locomotive in the 'shed' section. They went up the bank, propelled by the shed pilot loco, as far as was needed to unload them so

there was no need to put a loco inside. I think there is a plate to tell you not to let locos in on the wall but I am not sure... They were then let down on the handbrake individually under gravity as they were emptied. A warning that the loaded tub of coal was due was given by the coal crew by either tapping the metal floor or the water tank feed pipe.

There were instances of runaways from the stage - fairly frequently according to Bernard Barlow in his book Didcot Engineman (darn good read!) and to prevent these causing anything other than the requisite mischief, a trap point is fitted near the bottom of the bank. We don't want coal wagons ending up at Paddington now do we?

Sounds fun!

Regards always

Bob

GWR57xx · March 4, 2022

On 24/02/2022 at 16:27, BobM said:

Afternoon all,

Hope that all are safe and well?

This is an indication of what I would like to attempt to include into the engine shed / mpd area?

A bit of thought needed to incorporate this but the incline ramp angle doesn’t seem excessive for the distance available?

This may well just be a ‘scenic’ addition without the intention to have wagons being propelled up the incline anyway?

As always will keep you posted with developments as we go along.

Regards always

Bob

These first shots you showed looked fine to me.

The photos of Didcot I posted were more to show the grass embankment and wall of the rising slope than anything else, as you were proposing something similar.

I’m sure whatever you decide to do will look great, as does the rest of the layout.

One thing’s for sure, your engine shed area will look much better with a coal stage than without.

The Stationmaster · March 5, 2022

I think Harlequin has git it explained fairly well although I do wonder if a reach wagon would be left above the trap point (see below). So the method of working was as has already been explained and obviously varied a bit from depot to depot depending on its rate of coal use etc. But if the stage was being fully stocked with loaded wagons there would be some 'spotted' in the working area and others beyond them on what amounted to the feeder slope.

But what happened than I suspect varied according the degree of sense and experience on the part of the men working the coal stage. A loaded wagon descending 1 in 80 would take a lot of stopping as it built up momentum and two would take even more stopping so the brakes would definitely not be fully released (if they were released at all) and the empties already within the stage might well remain attached to them to give some extra brake power as the wagons were let down and were only moved down the slope after the fresh loaded wagons had been stopped in the right place.

I think the suggestion of a wagon as a buffer stop doesn't really grasp the inability of a handbrake to hold a wagon when it is hit by others, even empties, moving under their own momentum. Having experienced how a train of loaded wagons with all brakes pinned down can, in barely a couple of miles, push over 100tons of loco up to a speed of 40mph descending a 1 in 40 gradient I wouldn't even let an empty run down a short 1 in 35 with the brakes off in the vain hope that a wagon standing further down is going to stop it. I (and anyone who is taking a little bit of care) would let down subsequent empties with only a part released handbrake and a brakestick ready in place to try and slow them to a stand well before they reached the trap point/any wagons already there. A bit of bravado and some slap-dashery and you'd just let an empty go against some already standing at the bottom.

Spragging the wheels a wagon standing at the bottom would increase its holding power - but not by much.

BobM · March 7, 2022

Evening…..

Sorry for the pause in posting, have not been too chipper once more recently but have over the last few evenings got back into matters concerning the coal stage and have constructed a basic ramp and building platform out of balsa wood will keep at it when ‘I am upright’!

Hope that it’ll fit my needs and mainly ‘cosmetic’ representation?