What set up should I choose?

[Black Sheep]

I'm looking to go DCC as my large layout will be very complex from a wiring point of view and there will be some parts I need to put two locos in the same place such as shunt release and the depot. 

 

The layout is 14ft x 3.5ft, possibly longer featuring two loops plus a reversing loop (I'll need something for polarity reversal I'm guessing) 

I'm in N gauge doing continuous running and a fair bit of shunting about

 

I want to be able to add controllers so more than one operator can run the layout

I want to be able to program locos for movement and lights (not going to go with sound) not sure about running points from it at the moment

I want to be able to program maximum speed (so my offspring can't derail locos by going flat out!) and make the acceleration a bit more realistic etc

 

I'm used to gaugemaster's DC controllers and have used the NCE powercab, tried a dynamis but couldn't get it to work properly, not convinced on wireless for reception & batteries running out. 

 

What controllers should I be looking at / avoid? 

What's good / bad about each? 

 

Thanks

 

 

[beast66606]

I've used Lenz and Digitrax - no problem with either.

 

BUT

 

See if you try some systems and then choose one you like.

[traction]

The controllers YOU need to be looking at are the ones YOU are happy using.

What I think is good and bad wont be what you or others think are bad.

 

This question has been posted so many times, and the basic answer is try as many as you can.

We all prefer different things and what I like you probably won't.

 

First thing is, how many locos will be running at any one time!

I can run 5 N-gauge locos and one of these with sound on the basic 2amp PowerCab.

You can only add I think 1 extra cab with the PowerCab, so that gives you a total of 2 controllers.

 

You need to short list it down to desktop style or hand held cab style then how many extra cabs are you looking at wanting to connect?

So much information that you need to look into.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[amdaley]

Work out how many locos you will be running at any one time.There's a limit to how many locos your brain can deal with at once.

Try as many systems as you can before deciding.

Don't accept the first system you look at.

Try & find a store which stocks all the main brands & spend some time deciding what system you are comfortable with.

 

Invest in a system from a company whose main business is DCC only & keep away from train set systems.

 

For my own part I have a room 23' x 9' & I use an NCE Power Pro 5amp system.

I'm very happy with my choice but that's just me.

 

[Trip]

I'm way too new at this to be giving anyone any advice but I was recently in your shoes and after a lot of research decided to go for a Digitrax controller. I picked up a second hand DCS50 for £50 and it does everything you want including overall speed limiting. You can even plug in old analogue controllers to use as extra throttles.

 

I also connect to a PC with a locobuffer and using JMRI (free software) I can use my iphone as a remote throttle.

 

It's quite possible that other systems are just as good or better but I'm very happy with the Digitrax. 

 

The advice to use as many systems as you can and then decide is probably good but my experience in other fields is that you can't really decide on something this complex by fiddling about with somebody else's at a show or in a shop. You have to use it yourself. I went for Digitrax because for £50 you get a complete working system and I could sell it if I didn't like it.

[Black Sheep]

I've used Lenz and Digitrax - no problem with either.

 

BUT

 

See if you try some systems and then choose one you like.

 

Everyone I know locally is still on DC, the dynamis I had a go with was borrowed from my local shop to see how I got on with DCC, however I couldn't get it to work, it refused to accept there was a loco on track despite having succesfully assigned a number.

 

I did use the NCE powercab helping run Fourgig East at RMweb live last year, it was my first time using DCC and was simple enough for controlling locos (did the points using the old style switches) but did cheat by having two handets for two locos. I did like the fact I could use the handset single handed while watching the layout / coupling/uncoupling as the thumbwheel was in a good place. The old gaugemaster hand held controllers are good for this despite being a knob but I'm not convinced I'd be able to do it with their DCC offering.

 

I've also used a Hornby Elite briefly (it's what my local shop uses for running it's demo track) but wasn't that keen on it.

 

The controllers YOU need to be looking at are the ones YOU are happy using.

What I think is good and bad wont be what you or others think are bad.

 

This question has been posted so many times, and the basic answer is try as many as you can.

We all prefer different things and what I like you probably won't.

 

First thing is, how many locos will be running at any one time!

I can run 5 N-gauge locos and one of these with sound on the basic 2amp PowerCab.

You can only add I think 1 extra cab with the PowerCab, so that gives you a total of 2 controllers.

 

You need to short list it down to desktop style or hand held cab style then how many extra cabs are you looking at wanting to connect?

So much information that you need to look into.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

It's unlikely there will be more than 3 locos moving at once (two on continuous while another shunts / moves on shed) however add another handset and operator and there could easily be four moving at once, any more and they'll trip over each other.

 

I think handset would be preferable, then I can sit where I like along the length of the layout and run it. as above only looking to add another handset.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I did like the fact I could use the handset single handed while watching the layout / coupling/uncoupling ...I think handset would be preferable, then I can sit where I like along the length of the layout and run it...

 Then - to join the chorus - try every handset you can find.

 

It's much like TV etc. remotes; some just fall into your hand and you quickly become unconciously competent, others are always awkward sods despite the other merits of the kit (yes Pioneer, I am talking about you) and it does diminish the enjoyment if you are forever having to wrestle with the control interface.

[Guest bri.s]

I've heard lenz are good but never used them ,I've digitrax zephyr and that works great for me

 

If you can get to a shop or show and try a few ,to see which set up suits you ,

If money no object I'd say a ECoS lol

 

Brian

[traction]

That's good.

 

You've narrowed it down to a max of 4 locos running at any one time with an extra handset.

You've also said hand set would be preferable.

You also said that you're not sure about operating points at the moment.

 

That rules out quite a lot.

Are you interested in operating through a PC/or your phone?

That will also rule out a few more options.

 

You can then look at all the handset type cabs that are available.

 

NCE

Gaugemaster

Lenz

Digitrax

 

Are the main ones that spring to mind and can be found in most model shops.

You do have the Multimaus which has good reviews but I've not seen them as stock in model shops over here.

 

Depends on you and if you want to be able to nip into a model shop and be able to have help and support that way or are happy to use the internet and here for any help and advice.

I note you said you didn't take to the Elite, I have the Elite and a few selects connected up as walkabouts and find them OK, hence why I said that YOU need to try the systems to find out what you like/ don't like.

I also have the NCE PowerCab, MRC Explorer, Bachmann EZ-Command and the ZTC 611 and find they are all useful and nice to use depending on which layout I'm running!

What I can say is that I prefer to operate the points through levers or switches, trying to remember the address and use the DCC controller isn't easy or too much fun, if you have lots of points addresses to remember.

I do however connect all of the points through accessory decoders that have built in CDU's and can also have switch operation (some accessory decoders only have one of these options or none at all) this gives me the option to use the controller or the switches which is a nice choice to have.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....I prefer to operate the points through levers or switches, trying to remember the address and use the DCC controller isn't easy or too much fun, if you have lots of points addresses to remember.

 

 

Those levers or switches can just as easily operate points by DCC. 

That is without any wires routing directly from the levers/switches to the point motors or accessory decoder.

i.e. operation of the lever/switch, triggers a DCC command identical to that produced when selecting an individual accessory address via a handset (or console).

 

 

.

[runs as required]

Actually the Gaugemaster/Prodigy DCC hand controller I have (which I bought because it was mid range in price) alows you to use its control knob for shunting, for example, by rotating forward and back, controlling direction and speed.

G/P is capable of setting 3 locos running constantly in the background plus the one I am concentrating on while shunting.

G/P is no good at programming locos - for which I use a Sprog II and the JAMRI free software on an old laptop.

I'm also frustrated by the G/P being limited by its plug in cord. So I can also also have 3 locos running controlled by my iPhone via the Sprog - but this App drains the iPhone battery superfast.

 

Were I starting again I would be influenced by a lot of people on RMweb and elsewhere using Powercab and Lenz etc at the top end of the price range.

DCC Concepts website used to have some great briefing notes I found very helpful

 

But you have already been given the best advice - which is to try them all out. 

 

Because my ambition is to move to proper block signalling, I prefer route setting by separate levers (and a reverse polarity length controlled by a switch)..

I never regretted taking the DCC (with sound) route.

 

Good Luck

dh

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....I'm also frustrated by the G/P being limited by its plug in cord. ......

 

Have you considered the wireless conversion kit and doing away with the cord?

 

 

.

[Alan Kettlewell]

I've just got the Roco Z21 and I'm delighted with it. Now I run everything, including points, totally wirelessly using my iPad (you can also use a tablet or a smart phone). Well worth a look in my opinion, they can be found for £240.

[traction]

Those levers or switches can just as easily operate points by DCC. 

That is without any wires routing directly from the levers/switches to the point motors or accessory decoder.

i.e. operation of the lever/switch, triggers a DCC command identical to that produced when selecting an individual accessory address via a handset (or console).

 

 

.

 

When you say easily, how easily?

I've not seen anything that can do that, unless you have a NCE system and use/program the mini panel.

Or you join MERG and buy the encoder kit, not 100% sure how that all works though.

 

So not exactly easy, unless you know a different way?

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Black Sheep]

I don't have an iPad (or other tablet) and my phone is a rather aged iPhone on which a fair few apps have stopped working as the updates are too advanced for it! 
There is currently not a computer up in the loft

 

With the elite I struggled with pressing the dial to select without turning it slightly causing me to have to re-do whatever I was doing. 

[traction]

But I have gained so much satisfaction from learning about the potentials of DCC.

 

I came across MERG here for the first time last weekend at the Newcastle MRS exhibition.

I enjoyed listening to a real enthusiast explaining the workings of servo operated 00 gauge semaphores and their interlocking with points.

 

I liked his comment about not wanting his electronics to stop the train in front of the adverse signal - he preferred retaining "the driver's responsibility  to read the road", and "the Bobbie's responsibility to set the road".

That's what I'd love to achieve.

 

dh

 

Edit: link to MERG inserted

 

You may have gained satisfaction from learning about the potentials of DCC.

You've completely missed what I was getting at and I can't understand why you had to highlight my comment in red?

I've been a member of MERG and have bought and built the DCC standalone programmer, so it's not new to me, I'm just not that bothered about joining again at the present time.

To buy the encoder kit means paying out money to join the club, and then buying and assembling the kit.

My statement was "it's not exactly easy" relates to controlling the points from switches operating via a DCC signal.

Ron passed a comment about the switches easily being able to operate via DCC, I would just like to know how easy is it?

You need some sort of interface to give the required DCC commands and I'm unaware of any apart from those mentioned.

 

This is all completely off topic anyway as the OP did state he wasn't interested in using DCC to control points at the moment.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Ron Ron Ron]

When you say easily, how easily?

I've not seen anything that can do that, unless you have a NCE system and use/program the mini panel.

Or you join MERG and buy the encoder kit, not 100% sure how that all works though.

 

So not exactly easy, unless you know a different way?

Ron passed a comment about the switches easily being able to operate via DCC, I would just like to know how easy is it?

You need some sort of interface to give the required DCC commands and I'm unaware of any apart from those mentioned.

 

There are a few such interface modules available. First the NCE mini panel you mentioned, for use with the NCE system and a few similar modules for use on other specific DCC brands - e.g. CML DTM30 for LocoNet based systems (e.g. Digitrax) and for Lenz systems the new Lenz LW150.

 

Now there's the DCC Concepts new Cobalt Alpha module, which will work with many different DCC systems to give similar capability.

 

All these modules simply act like another throttle on the cab bus and are connected with just a single cable to the cab bus, or Command station - just like any other wired throttle.

 

A different variation on the theme gives us a couple of layout control systems that take DCC switching commands, but use their own network bus to connect to the accessory decoders (e.g. MegaPoints Controllers).

 

Point Levers, switches, buttons (even stud and probe with the Alpha) and any LED indicators, are wired into the module(s) - e.g. located next to, or on the back of the point control panel - which is then just connected to the cab bus or Command station.

Other than that connection, not a single wire needs to run out onto the layout to connect with any point motors or accessory decoders.

The hard work, apart from building a panel, or lever frame, will be the programming, or assigning each switch to a particular accessory address, when setting it up.

 

 

.

[traction]

Cheers for the reply Ron,

 

Just looked into that and it's not cheap.

 

The DCC Concepts Alpha panel is not bad if you have a NCE DCC system, but if you want to be able to use it with any DCC system you will need the "black Box" and another power supply and that black box is not cheap!

If you have one of the more well known DCC systems then yes you don't need the "black-box" but can buy the very much cheaper adapter board to suit the DCC controller you have.

 

You then need the different power supplies to power the Alpha Black-Box and another for the Alpha Panel.

Or if like me you have different DCC controllers, you could buy the Alpha adapter to suit each of the different controllers.

 

So unless you have one of the popular brands of DCC systems then it's not really that easy to use the switches to trigger a DCC command signal, not when you can take the wires straight from the switch to the accessory decoder, yes much more wiring but straight forward and nothing else to buy.

 

Don't get me wrong I really love the idea of being able to use this as like you quite rightly say all wiring in the control panel and two wires come out and connect to the DCC bus, whats not to like!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Ron Ron Ron]

The DCC Concepts Alpha panel is not bad if you have a NCE DCC system, but if you want to be able to use it with any DCC system you will need the "black Box" and another power supply and that black box is not cheap!

If you have one of the more well known DCC systems then yes you don't need the "black-box" but can buy the very much cheaper adapter board to suit the DCC controller you have.

 

 

The Black Box is a stand alone 5 amp Booster, designed to provide a stand alone DCC accessory bus so that DC (or AC) layouts can take advantage of DCC control of points, signals and other accessories, without having to convert the running of locos to DCC.

 

It can also be used to provide accessory control facilities to a "basic" DCC system that doesn't have that facility (e.g. Prodigy Express², EZ-Command etc).

Most DCC systems will not need it.

 

The adapters for systems such as Lenz, Digitrax, ESU, MRC/Gaugemaster (those have been announced so far) and others yet to be announced, are currently listed at £20.50 m.r.p. 

NCE is already covered.

 

 

 

This stuff will cost money, quite reasonably so; but it will also have a perceived value to those contemplating their options.

For some it's a far too expensive option, but for others the price may be considered well worth it as opposed to installing miles of complex, multiple sets of wiring, with the attendant scope for mistakes, errors, fault finding and potential reliability issues.

The key thing here is choice.

 

Cheers

Ron

 

 

 

.

[Crewlisle]

I converted my complicated analogue 00 gauge layout ‘Crewlisle’ to DCC 7 years ago.  The way I converted it appeared in Model Rail in October & November 2008.  Until then, the authors of all the articles I had read about DCC implied you needed a degree in electronics to operate a DCC layout by making it sound too technical & full of jargon.  As other contributors to this forum have said, you can only decide which sysem to use when you have tried them in shops or discussed it with modellers at exhibitions.

 

DCC can be as simple or as complicated as you want; I have kept mine simple & it works.  The only CVs I use (apart from sound decoders) are CV1, 2, 3 & 4 for normal operation or when I want to use a 'long address' (3 or 4 digits) CV 17,18 & 29.  Sometimes I have to use CV54 & 55 for adjustments to the characteristics of the loco's motor.  I chose Lenz as my operating system using their LH90 hand held controllers which are about the size of a TV remote because all the programming/control is done from this one small controller, they have a control knob, you can hold them in one hand & at the same time control the loco & uncouple stock with the other hand.  Also, Lenz are one of the most reliable systems on the market & basically have a sliding scale ten year guarantee.

 

I do not use accessory decoders as they are more expense, more wiring & more codes to remember!  All my points are controlled by mini schematic track diagams, Peco solenoid motors & Peco stud contacts.  The only polarity switch on my layout is for the live diamond crossing.  Colour light signals & semaphores are controlled by either minature slide switches or mechanical operation from the inside edge of the baseboard.  

 

If any of you have any questions about how my layout is controlled, 'Crewlisle' will be on stand A42 at the NEC next week.

[Black Sheep]

If any of you have any questions about how my layout is controlled, 'Crewlisle' will be on stand A42 at the NEC next week.

Unfortunately I don't make it to many exhibitions due to family commitments on a weekend. I'm often home from work just in time to put my 2 year old daughter to bed and even then, get caught in traffic for 10 mins and I can be too late.

 

If I do make it then I can't roam too far from Manchester and both clubs I'm in contact with are both DC

 

I'll be popping into my local shop this weekend so will be able to have a look at what he has

[Black Sheep]

Just to add to the requirements

 

There's possibility of it actually being 5 locomotives for a single operator and 6 with a second handset / operator with the possibility of a third handset as an ideal but unlikely as I'm planning on running two trams alongside the locos but this could be done on a separate system or may even end up being static.

 

point control (possibly turntable control also) is to be done seprately either using a traditional poke board (stud and probe or buttons) toggle switches or Cobalt levers or similar, Currently it's likely it'll be done using logic boards that a friend produces to simply press buttons to tell the layout where you are and where you want to go and it sets the route. I'm planning on signals being static due to complexity of making myself and cost of Dapol.

 

Thanks for the help and advice so far

 

 

[traction]

The GaugeMaster Prodigy Advanced² with its 3.5amp power supply should be OK for your needs and can have controllers plugged into the base station.

 

With that list of requirements and the fact you've used the NCE controller and found it OK, that could also be a good system.

The choice would be to start with the PowerCab and then add the Smart Booster at a later date which will allow more than one extra cab to be plugged into it and give more power.

Or go straight out for the NCE Power Pro 5amp system which will allow lots of cabs to be plugged into it and plenty of power for future use.

 

The PA² has the same type cabs that plug in, the only difference in cabs is one has a back light the other is the wireless conversion set, I did own the Wireless PA² and it was a nice easy controller to use and wireless did work well.

The NCE system has a multitude of different handsets that can be plugged in which gives even more choice on the type of handset you can use.

 

I've said these two as they are now probably the most common and found in most models shops, you may also find Lenz as well, but you need to try them as I just found the menu on the handset a bit clunky compared to the others I've mentioned, although it is by all accounts very reliable.

 

This is the can of worms you've opened, and as we've all stated you have to be happy with it as ultimately you will be using it all the time.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[John K]

Nothing you haven't been told before - Lenz Digitrax and NCE all work reliably. Try before you buy.

Avoid entry level trainset stuff.

John K

[Phil S]

I would not exclude the Multimaus, or now, the z21 and Z21 from Roco/Fleischmann from consideration, even though they are included in Digital Starter Sets ... in fact the digital starter sets are one of the most economical ways of getting either a Multimaus Sysytem or a z21/Z21 system !!   If you have no interest in the track or stock included, there are plenty of Roco/Fleischmann dealers selling them split from the sets!!

(It is how I bought most of mine)  Bought this way, a new Multimaus System canb e had for 65-90 GBP instead of paying 160E/GBP just for the handset, or Amplifier.

 

All current supplies of th Multimaus come with a Switched Mode Power Supply - which avoids the 'problems'/concerns of high track voltage in the UK when it was supplies with a transformer.

The BLACK Z21 allows the user to set their preferred track voltage, the White model z21 does not.  New Raicom enabled Boosters for the Z21/z21 are now available.

 

On the Roco site  www.roco.cc you can download a software emulation of the Multimaus to try, and they have the Z21.eu site for information about the z21(white) and Z21(black and full version)