gr.king Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Did anybody else go to this year's Warley NEC show and notice the Mock-Dublo LMS Beyer Garratts on the "Binns Road" Hornby Dublo layout, complete with very convincing mock factory boxes in 3-rail and 2-rail styles? I suspect the loco bodies were resin or plastic but on account of being supposedly "on duty" I didn't have time to hang around asking questions about the background to the locos. I wondered if they were some kind of collector's club specials, rather like the V2s of a few years ago, clearly using the 2-6-4T chassis. Does anybody know more please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I am not aware of any special issues of Beyer-Garratts (not that this excludes any), but i would have thought a likely source is a motorised Kitmaster kit. Having only built this kit as intended (whatever happened to it? ), I don't know how the 2-6-4T chassis would fit. I would be inclined to commit heresy and use the Tri-ang 2-6-2T chassis, which has a nearer correct wheelbase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carne Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I can tell neither of you good people are members of the Hornby Railway Collectors Association. The layout was displayed by the Chiltern hills"mob",which includes a couple of very skilled individuals who have made numerous "Neverwassers",locos,coaches,wagons,buildings and track. That's about as much as I can tell you,as I'm not a Dublo enthusiast by any stretch of the imagination. Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 That piece of information is very helpful in itself. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dublodad Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 The original prototype new build garratt was made some years ago using a steel block chassis each end fitted with Dublo "standard" tank wheels, motion and cylinders and two "half inch" motors. This was topped off by a Kitmaster superstructure. The "production" versions have brass chassis and a resin superstructure, the rest being as the prototype. There were two tree rail and one two rail at the NEC, owned by HRCA members. Other than looking enviously at and driving the garratt, I have no other interest with the manufacture of the models. On Sunday, the garratt was pulling 80 Dublo super detail wagons plus a brake van, this was the maximum that the "double" loop would hold. the train length was about 22 feet long. Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Since the prototype's driving wheels were 5' 3" diameter, I would have thought the Dublo N2/R1 wheels would have been a better choice. The undersize would have been in the Dublo tradition of 'correct size* over flanges' and kept the ride height correct allowing the 'bogies' greater freedom to rotate. * More or less! I would think 80 wagons is about the limit before bearing friction causes the train the tip over on curves. Now I need a Kitmaster Garratt kit! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dublodad Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Hi Il Grifone, It was impossible to start with the front wagons on a curve, as long as the train was started on the straight it held together on curves, most of which were nominal 22 inch radius with only two sections of 45 degrees each at 15 inch radius. Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 That would seem possible (obviously it was!). I was wondering if they were cheating by using Wrenn pinpoint underframes, but that would be heresy.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dublodad Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I don't believe that there were any wrenn underframes, the wagons were incredibly heavy to pull manually. Many of the wagons had wrenn bodies but those persons involved regularly fit Wrenn bodies to HD chassis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 It would be heavy - the drag on Dublo rolling stock is around 1 gram or more per axle*. Basically all Wrenn rolling stock consists of Dublo mouldings on a slightly modified (to take Tri-ang couplings) late type Dublo underframe. The wheels, at least later on, have metal tyres, They later revised the wheel hangers to take pinpoint axles with a great improvement in running. AFAIK the only new moulding was a plastic tank to replace the tinplate Dublo one. (Long overdue IMHO) * Approximately - they are supposed to start on a 1 in 30 incline (where the vehicle's weight is about thirty times the static friction), around 3 times the requirement for a pin-point bearing vehicle. I measured a D12 Stanier coach once many years ago - it required 8 grams pull before it would move. One of my Dublo BGs has had its nylon wheels replaced with metal 3 Rail ones, as the nylon type were very reluctant to turn. I must see if I have enough Nucro wheels to Dublo standards in stock to restore it to two rail operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Does anyone have any pictures of the beasts please? Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I still have a 1960s Hornby 2-6-4T which will pull anything I can attach to it in the available space, it pulled 10 bogie flats (40 axles) at the club test track a while ago. A mighty beast! I certainly didn't realise there were over 30 LMS Beyer Garratts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 The Garratt in question was the prototype built by Derek Smith with a view to some "production" ones being made in 2 and 3-rail. The chassis's as mentioned are new machined brass ones and the valve gear is the 2-6-4 tank version but split into two halves and a new mounting plate made to take these. The body is supposed to be a whitemetal casting from the Kitmaster plastic version. I do not know if any have been made for sale yet or at what price. I actually did some of the CAD drawings for the new mountings and know the chap concerned with manufacturing the chassis blocks but I have never seen the completed one mentioned as yet. The owner a few years ago did advertise the Collett 0-6-0 tender loco in both 2 and 3-rail in black and green and my name was first on the list but I never received any notification so do not know if many were produced apart from his own used on his/their layouts. The replica boxes are very easy to do using the blue or red ones from Toyfairs or Cheltenham models and using a white paint pen and ruler for the lines. Then print your own labels and glue them in situ. The photo is taken from the HRCA website forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Thank you for the picture. It certainly looks the part. Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Here is my 3-rail Beyer Garratt, this is the Heljan/Hattons one pulling 35 Dublo wagons with ease. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted December 16, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2015 I still have a 1960s Hornby 2-6-4T which will pull anything I can attach to it in the available space, it pulled 10 bogie flats (40 axles) at the club test track a while ago. A mighty beast! I certainly didn't realise there were over 30 LMS Beyer Garratts Initial order of 3 & 3 years later 30 more ordered, this time with the rotating bunker. Two things of note 1/ the same problems were perpetuated (poor valve gear and axle boxes - standard Midland products & even the spacing of water tank fillers, which meant that the already installed dual water cranes on the Midland main line, required the loco to 'move up', to fill both water tanks!). 2/ The batch of 30 was the largest ever single order of Garratts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I was told that they were specials commissioned by the club - around £500 a piece. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 With the amount of chassis blocks being machined it must be a big club if it was only for them. I will be seeing the chap involved with the chassis at the end of the month and will make some inquiries regarding numbers/price etc although I will not be getting one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Here is the information I have on the Garratts from my friend Concerning the Garretts, they are certainly not restricted to the Chiltern Hills mob and are available in both 2 and 3 rail in RWS or BWS boxes as appropriate, also available as BR or LMS livery. I have very nearly sold the first batch of 15 but more bodies are on order and I have a stock of chassis so the next build will certainly be ready early next year. I have attached a bit of info. We have not advertised at all so far, entirely word of mouth. We did run one at the Warley, it pulled 84 Dublo wagons with ease, it would have done many more but the wagons were pulled off, inwards, on the standard radius curves! See you at Doncaster, all the best, The project started when Derek Smith made himself a model of the LMS Beyer Garrett locomotive using parts from the Hornby Dublo 2-6-4 tank, two ½” motors and a Kitmaster kit. I spent some time nagging Derek to make one for me until I mentioned that I had access to a fully equipped machine shop. This meant we could make any custom parts we needed and, via my contacts around Manchester, actually make parts in quantity. This was the start of our first joint project and, in retrospect, probably the most difficult project we could have chosen. We have overcome many obstacles and are now manufacturing. The wheels and running gear are from a 2-6-4 tank donor but the chassis are machined from solid brass, the two motors are basically Hornby Dublo ½” motors fitted with Superneo magnets and 5 pole armatures, these give good low speed running and plenty of power. Effectively when using this loco you will be double heading and if your controller isn’t man enough to double head Dublo locos it won’t be suitable for the Beyer Garrett, especially as we expect it to be pulling many wagons. The choice of brass for the chassis was to get long bearing life but as brass is denser than steel the extra weigh is beneficial. In addition the boiler section is mainly white metal with brass parts; this all contributes to the traction weight. The cost is £495. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I have been informed that the "exclusiveness" of these is due to each one being a one off limited edition. 60 in total are being made with 30 in LMS livery all with a different numbers and 30 in BR livery again with all different numbers so there will be no two alike. At the moment sales have been good so they have not had to advertise them yet but each one will be in a red white stripped box as for 2-rail and a blue white striped box for the 3-rail version and are available for anyone who wants one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dublodad Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 At Warley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I must leave my Dublo track in its boxes...... I must leave my Dublo track in its boxes...... I must leave my Dublo track in its boxes...... I must leave my Dublo track in its boxes...... SWMBO would not approve of track all over the floor despite it being Christmas! My brilliant idea for a village and train around the tree, American style, was instantly scuppered! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dublodad Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Will be playing Dublo at Mortimer (Berkshire) Village hall on Tuesday 29th. No doubt a garrett will turn up (I hope)!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Having spoken to John at Doncaster another 10 are already ordered for delivery next month, and, with a change of mind I have ordered a BR 3-rail version for myself. That is 26 sold and I know of another ordered for June. I do have an old Kitmaster one to re-chassis and clean but cannot help thinking 3 Garratts on the layout will be over the top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Here are my 2 Garratts (1 Heljan and the other Dublo) working the up and down lines. The last clip shows that 2 fireman maybe needed to shovel the coal on at the speed it is racing at. I have mixed feelings between both locos as they both have good and bad faults with them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJQsd1qFpcQ&feature=youtu.be Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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