RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 4, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 4, 2017 There are a significant number of Crossrail trains from the east, that turn back after emerging from the tunnel portal. It is envisaged that these will continue on to the HS2 station at OOC and turn back there, once HS2 is up and running. With the number of Crossrail trains arriving at OOC, platform occupancy and track capacity in the approach to the station will be key factors in allowing such a high intensity service to operate. n.b. 24tph = one every 2.5 minutes. Ron The Old Oak station is planned to have 2 island platforms for the relic lines with the inner tracks heading off to 3 reversing sidings (and grade separated from the up relief) on the alignment of the now abandoned WCML link. People should also note that given the currently being built turnback siding at Royal Oak is specifically designed to take trains with passengers still on board (to prevent terminating Crossrail trains blocking the westbound platform time at Paddington while staff make absolutely sure no passengers are still on board before it can depart to the reversing siding). As such there is no reason why the proposed Old Oak station / siding could not cope with the turn rounds proposed - its the GWML west of there that's the issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 With the number of Crossrail trains arriving at OOC, platform occupancy and track capacity in the approach to the station will be key factors in allowing such a high intensity service to operate. As pointed out above there will be 4 platforms at Old Oak Common for Crossrail services so there shouldn't be an issue - better to spend that money on increasing the capacity of the Mains as set out in the Route Study IIRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2017 They may have thought about it but surely they already have some of this experience with the North London Line and the existing Overground. There's q fair amount of freight there. Jamie But without the speed mix, and indeed passenger trains speed mix and profiles, there are on the GWML. A more realistic comparison would be to suggest that the WCML Slow Lines between Queens Park and Cheddington should be handed over to exclusively run 'Crossrail' type trains (with gauge enlargement of the Bakerloo Line for those of a pedantic disposition). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2017 They may have thought about it but surely they already have some of this experience with the North London Line and the existing Overground. There's q fair amount of freight there. Jamie But without the speed mix, and indeed passenger trains speed mix and profiles, there are on the GWML. A more realistic comparison would be to suggest that the WCML Slow Lines between Queens Park and Cheddington should be handed over to exclusively run 'Crossrail' type trains (with gauge enlargement of the Bakerloo Line for those of a pedantic disposition). There are a significant number of Crossrail trains from the east, that turn back after emerging from the tunnel portal. It is envisaged that these will continue on to the HS2 station at OOC and turn back there, once HS2 is up and running. With the number of Crossrail trains arriving at OOC, platform occupancy and track capacity in the approach to the station will be key factors in allowing such a high intensity service to operate. n.b. 24tph = one every 2.5 minutes. Ron And therefore all the more sensible to separate them onto their own dedicated pair of running lines as far as Old Oak Common - which would be perfectly feasible without any major civil engineering works except possibly at Westbourne Park (reopen Mousehole Tunnel??). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 They may have thought about it but surely they already have some of this experience with the North London Line and the existing Overground. There's q fair amount of freight there. Jamie They might, but from what I have heard, TfL aren't happy with having to share the line with the freights as it is. They'd like them not to be there, but can't do anything about it, except whinge. The GW Relief lines traffic may come as a similar inconvenience to them. Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2017 They may have thought about it but surely they already have some of this experience with the North London Line and the existing Overground. There's q fair amount of freight there. Jamie But without the speed mix, and indeed passenger trains speed mix and profiles, there are on the GWML. A more realistic comparison would be to suggest that the WCML Slow Lines between Queens Park and Cheddington should be handed over to exclusively run 'Crossrail' type trains (with gauge enlargement of the Bakerloo Line for those of a pedantic disposition). There are a significant number of Crossrail trains from the east, that turn back after emerging from the tunnel portal. It is envisaged that these will continue on to the HS2 station at OOC and turn back there, once HS2 is up and running. With the number of Crossrail trains arriving at OOC, platform occupancy and track capacity in the approach to the station will be key factors in allowing such a high intensity service to operate. n.b. 24tph = one every 2.5 minutes. Ron And therefore all the more sensible to separate them onto their own dedicated pair of running lines as far as Old Oak Common - which would be perfectly feasible without any major civil engineering works except possibly at Westbourne Park (reopen Mousehole Tunnel??). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) And therefore all the more sensible to separate them onto their own dedicated pair of running lines as far as Old Oak Common - which would be perfectly feasible without any major civil engineering works except possibly at Westbourne Park (reopen Mousehole Tunnel??). Is that something that ran around the back of where the bus garage is? If so the elevated bus deck done for Crossrail and forest of columns underneath rather stuffs that. Yes, would be major work. Not least as under the bus deck will also be the siding with bottom discharge chute and conveyor thing for aggregate deliveries for the batching plant next door. Edited March 5, 2017 by The Great Bear Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2017 Is that something that ran around the back of where the bus garage is? If so the elevated bus deck done for Crossrail and forest of columns underneath rather stuffs that. Yes, would be major work. Not least as under the bus deck will also be the siding with bottom discharge chute and conveyor thing for aggregate deliveries for the batching plant next door. It was to the west of where the original 'bus deck was built although I wouldn't be surprised if that has 'spread out' a bit since rebuilding. I haven't go a clue what it's like inside and it is curved - it was for many years the BR Soil Mechanics experimental area and workshop with various buildings erected across the tunnel mouth at the west end. The advantage of using it it - should that be feasible - is that it would save cutting a new short tunnel under the road at the north end of the existing over bridge although there is plenty of room under the existing bridge but it might involve sluing other lines and reducing line speeds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted March 5, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2017 It was to the west of where the original 'bus deck was built although I wouldn't be surprised if that has 'spread out' a bit since rebuilding. I haven't go a clue what it's like inside and it is curved - it was for many years the BR Soil Mechanics experimental area and workshop with various buildings erected across the tunnel mouth at the west end. The advantage of using it it - should that be feasible - is that it would save cutting a new short tunnel under the road at the north end of the existing over bridge although there is plenty of room under the existing bridge but it might involve sluing other lines and reducing line speeds.I presume that the 'mousehole' that you're referring to was on the north side of what is now the Tarmac terminal. In Joe Brown's London rail atlas there is a curved through route as the northernmost line that is now severed Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Apologies if this is covered earlier in this thread, but is a proposed track plan of the lines between Paddington (Crossrail) and Acton available somewhere? I've found one by Googling, but it doesn't show the station at Old Oak Common. In fact, the route map on the Crossrail website also doesn't show a station at Old Oak Common. I still find it hard to believe that the opportunity to make the junction between the GWML and Crossrail grade-separated was not taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) I presume that the 'mousehole' that you're referring to was on the north side of what is now the Tarmac terminal. In Joe Brown's London rail atlas there is a curved through route as the northernmost line that is now severed Jamie Shows up on this map Jamie starting from the area named 'BS" on the OS map on the left. It does indeed run under the 'bus garage so that are was probably filled in and the Westway piers would be a nuisance to - as they would be where they cross the GWML. I'm not sure when it was closed but no later I think than the early 1950s - it was used to stable Eisenhower's personal train at some period during WWII according to those working in the vicinity at that time. https://www.irwellpress.com/acatalog/SOUTHERN_RAILWAY.html Edited March 5, 2017 by The Stationmaster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Looking at that map, even if the "mousehole" could be re-opened, I guess its permitted speed would be cripplingly slow. Unsurprising that existing Crossrail plans don't show Old Oak, as it is being added at a later date by HS2 not Crossrail. On a quick look the HS2 plans aren't detailed enough to show anything relevant either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Apologies if this is covered earlier in this thread, but is a proposed track plan of the lines between Paddington (Crossrail) and Acton available somewhere? I've found one by Googling, but it doesn't show the station at Old Oak Common. In fact, the route map on the Crossrail website also doesn't show a station at Old Oak Common.............. Not the proposed track plan you are asking about, but detailed schematic diagrams and architect's renderings of the proposed OOC station are freely available online. Overlay on top of the present day OOC (which will all be obliterated as part of the scheme) and showing the new Crossrail depot in orange..... A clearer view (ignore the old depot bits to the north of the station, they have mostly already gone)...... A couple of renderings giving a general idea of how it might look (the turn back sidings and flyover at the western end are not shown here)..... A better and more representative rendering, showing the flyover..... What some people on here may not be aware of, is that the whole OOC area is subject to proposals for a very large scale redevelopment programme. A sort of mini-city with housing, offices and retail. Hammersmith, Fulham, Kensington and the Mayor of London's office, along with development groups, are all involved in plans to redevelop all the railway and former railway land and surrounding areas. There are moves to have the brand new OOC Crossrail depot (that isn't even completed) relocated elsewhere, as it stands in the way. Other ambitions are to close Hitachi's North Pole depot and redevelop the whole site. The HS2, Crossrail and GWML station will be situated within and under this new complex. A typical rendering to give a rough idea of how it may look...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 p.s. to the above post. In the last rendering, the eagle eye'd may have spotted that Willesden Junction is also included in these plans to redevelop this part of London. I seem to remember that there are ambitions to take some railway land there. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2017 p.s. to the above post. In the last rendering, the eagle eye'd may have spotted that Willesden Junction is also included in these plans to redevelop this part of London. I seem to remember that there are ambitions to take some railway land there. . Much more land available if Heathrow is closed and a new airport built downstream on the Thames side somewhere A thing which always fascinates me about these various grandiose schemes is that they usually seem to envisage taking land which is being usefully occupied by something else! Mind you at least they aren't greenfield sites - until they expand onto Wormwood Scrubs. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Shows up on this map Jamie starting from the area named 'BS" on the OS map on the left. It does indeed run under the 'bus garage so that are was probably filled in and the Westway piers would be a nuisance to - as they would be where they cross the GWML. I'm not sure when it was closed but no later I think than the early 1950s - it was used to stable Eisenhower's personal train at some period during WWII according to those working in the vicinity at that time. https://www.irwellpress.com/acatalog/SOUTHERN_RAILWAY.html I've found the Crossrail drawings of the Westbourn Park bus deck, though they don't show the hidden tunnel. http://idoxpa.westminster.gov.uk/online-applications/files/58B88D3B724D5719699AC4BA2F8219E9/pdf/12_04534_FULL-BUS_DECK_GA-2398266.pdf http://idoxpa.westminster.gov.uk/online-applications/files/ECEECFAA9261F35BE1E944163EE5D920/pdf/12_04534_FULL-BUS_DECK_SECTIONS-2398269.pdf http://idoxpa.westminster.gov.uk/online-applications/files/E9CF9FCCB7B0A5316809619D2F36BA82/pdf/12_04534_FULL-ARCHITECTURAL_VISUALISATION_REPORT_-_PART_A-2398250.pdf http://idoxpa.westminster.gov.uk/online-applications/files/F02D2B96BDC550B10291953DE695A480/pdf/12_04534_FULL-ARCHITECTURAL_VISUALISATION_REPORT_-_PART_C-2398253.pdf I do have feint recollection from the couple of site visits I had here of a tunnel opening or something toward the back under the bus garage, behind the Westway Pier, just before the wall and slope up to the Grand Union Canal embankment and at the time wondering what it was: now I know. The whole Westbourne Park area is so constrained and wrought with difficulties. Diverting the Great Western Road trunk sewer immediately west of bridge was interesting. It ran very shallow under the GWML and when HEX was done they simply chopped the top off the existing sewer, reducing its capacity rather. With Crossrail reinstating tracks (I think it was - maybe one line) on the north side and lowering them to get clearances for the OHLE then something more fundamental needed doing, a proper job. Cue a whole new length 600m of sewer tunnelled under the railway, Westbourne Park station and streets to the south. We were contemplating pumping this sewer, but don't know whether that made it into the eventual solution or not. http://www.barhale.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/TD-Tunnelling-Green-Lane-Great-Western-Road.pdf In hindsight quite interesting and something different for my career, though I did not appreciate it at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Not the proposed track plan you are asking about, but detailed schematic diagrams and architect's renderings of the proposed OOC station are freely available online. Overlay on top of the present day OOC (which will all be obliterated as part of the scheme) and showing the new Crossrail depot in orange..... A clearer view (ignore the old depot bits to the north of the station, they have mostly already gone)...... A couple of renderings giving a general idea of how it might look (the turn back sidings and flyover at the western end are not shown here)..... A better and more representative rendering, showing the flyover..... What some people on here may not be aware of, is that the whole OOC area is subject to proposals for a very large scale redevelopment programme. A sort of mini-city with housing, offices and retail. Hammersmith, Fulham, Kensington and the Mayor of London's office, along with development groups, are all involved in plans to redevelop all the railway and former railway land and surrounding areas. There are moves to have the brand new OOC Crossrail depot (that isn't even completed) relocated elsewhere, as it stands in the way. Other ambitions are to close Hitachi's North Pole depot and redevelop the whole site. The HS2, Crossrail and GWML station will be situated within and under this new complex. A typical rendering to give a rough idea of how it may look...... Someone's going to be very wealthy if that lot gets done! Affordable housing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 It seems extraordinary that work on the Crossrail tunnel section is so far advanced whilst they're still dithering about what will happen when the trains emerge at the western end! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 6, 2017 It seems extraordinary that work on the Crossrail tunnel section is so far advanced whilst they're still dithering about what will happen when the trains emerge at the western end! They're not dithering about it as the initial arrangements are in the process of being implemented - just that they don't really match longer term ambitions all that well it would appear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 In terms of having somewhere for the trains to go after Paddington, infrastructure is being built, no dithering there. We're just debating whether what they want to do with them once they emerge is really a good idea or not, and most of us seem to think it's not so clever. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 There's an article on the proposed timetable changes on London reconnections. Judging by one of the comments, I think Stationmaster has already found it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2017 There's an article on the proposed timetable changes on London reconnections. Judging by one of the comments, I think Stationmaster has already found it... How did you guess .... ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hi, Maidenhead Stabiling sidings are now laid, although not signalled fully, and from what I could see from my Turbo, not wired as yet. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted March 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2017 Testing of the 345 EMUs is underway. 345005 - the first unit in final passenger spec configuration - was at Liverpool Street this morning. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7COxi-WoAAcwgR?format=jpg&name=large Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold unravelled Posted March 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2017 I was at Abbey Wood last weekend, and have added the photos to my "Crossrail south of the river" Flickr album. https://www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/albums/72157632675037925 Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now