Dale Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Hi Folks, I would like to renumber my City of Liverpool (Hornby R3195) to 46237 City of Bristol, and also bring the model forward in time with a late crest on the tender. It seems to the uneducated, that there may be an issue here with the slope on the smokebox. 46237 was streamlined and had its casing removed. looking at pictures on the internet show's both sloping and conventional smoke boxes but many of these images are of models so cant be relied upon. The Hornby model of City of Liverpool has a sloping smokebox so, in the early 1960's, would city of Bristol had a sloping smokebox or had this been replaced with a parallel smokebox? Can I renumber my CofL (early crest) to CofB (late crest)? many thanks, D. PS: Is there a definitive tomb I could look for on the Stanier Pacifics? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted December 27, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 27, 2015 Hi, By July 1961 46237 had a parallel smokebox, from photo. Probably from works visit some time before. Try Abe for Duchess books - Power of, Profile of, LMS Duchesses by Doherty, 6233 by Ewart + Radford all good. Hope this helps. Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 6237 received her cylindrical smokebox in May 1956, 6247 in May 1958. The last one with a sloping smokebox was 6246, altered April or May 1960 (during a Heavy General repair from 11th February). So if you're based in the 1960s cylindrical smokeboxes throughout! The book I'd recommend is 'The Book of the Coronation Pacifics Mk2' (2010) by Ian Sixsmith, Irwell Press, ISBN 978-1-906919-17-7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froxfield2012 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Interesting. I do have "Power of the Duchesses" by Jenkinson which gives the May 1956 date for the "normal" smokebox. I also have this shot by my father which is firmly dated in one of the earliest negative albums as April 1955! I know one should always trust published books but..... However, it is absolutely certain that the railwayman in the picture is H G "Harry" Whitty who drove City of Bristol regularly as a top link driver, including through the war years with people like Winston Churchill as passenger. By the time we met Harry Whitty, he was employed on clearing up duties at Camden due to eyesight problems. He was one of the nicest and most genuine people I have ever met and always willing to take us down to Camden, even after his full retirement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 There is indeed an issue with published material. The information I gave above comes from the recommended book, but the date given for the ateration is from the First Book of..., snas Mk2. The Mk2 book gives the dtes as follows: 6237 - March 1953, 6247 - September 1956 and 6246 - May 1960. You pays your money, etc... However, 6246 was the last with a sloping smokebox and was modified in 1960. Of that I am certain. I think... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froxfield2012 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 There is indeed an issue with published material. The information I gave above comes from the recommended book, but the date given for the ateration is from the First Book of..., snas Mk2. The Mk2 book gives the dtes as follows: 6237 - March 1953, 6247 - September 1956 and 6246 - May 1960. You pays your money, etc... However, 6246 was the last with a sloping smokebox and was modified in 1960. Of that I am certain. I think... Thanks for that. It would look as though the 1953 date is more likely to be correct? And I am grateful for the clarification because there are a whole load more negatives I would have had to "re-date" if the 1956 date stood! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I understand from talking with John Jennison that his next volume in the RCTS Locomotives of the LMS Series of books will be on Stanier's 'Big 'uns'. From the evidence of his two books on the Black 5s I would expect the research to be meticulous and that such matters as the dates of rebuilding from sloping smoke boxes to be answered once and for all. I'm ensconced with relatives over 300 miles from home over the Christmas period so can't check my copy for myself, but doesn't the Wild Swan volume on the Duchesses offer a date in respect of these locos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I'm ensconced with relatives over 300 miles from home over the Christmas period so can't check my copy for myself, but doesn't the Wild Swan volume on the Duchesses offer a date in respect of these locos? I have that book too; it gives the date as 16th March 1955. The problem here is that the change wouldn't be recorded on the Engine History Cards since it wasn't viewed as a modification; it was a simple replacement of one life-expired smokebox by a new one. I suspect the authors were working from photographic evidence, and I can state from experience that the dates accompanying many photos are not to be trusted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Hi, By July 1961 46237 had a parallel smokebox, from photo. Probably from works visit some time before. Try Abe for Duchess books - Power of, Profile of, LMS Duchesses by Doherty, 6233 by Ewart + Radford all good. Hope this helps. Dava Unless you have issues with Amazon not paying hardly any tax in the UK; in which case avoid Abe at all costs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froxfield2012 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I have that book too; it gives the date as 16th March 1955. The problem here is that the change wouldn't be recorded on the Engine History Cards since it wasn't viewed as a modification; it was a simple replacement of one life-expired smokebox by a new one. I suspect the authors were working from photographic evidence, and I can state from experience that the dates accompanying many photos are not to be trusted. As I have worked my way through my father's negatives, I have a pretty good grasp of the difficulties of dating photos! However, when he could be bothered to date anything, I am usually content with the result. In the case of the shot above, I had a problem with handwritten numbers and initially thought the date given was 1953. I am now sure the date is April 1955 and this fits in well with a sequence of photos of Camden. If March 1955 is the date for the revised smokebox, then I guess the question is whether or not City of Bristol is clean enough to have been out-shopped only a month before? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 Thanks for all the replies foilks. CoL wont be a suitable model then as she has a sloping smokebox. The only RTR option at the moment seems to be Duchess of Sutherland but it is presented in an 'as preserved' condition which always makes me worry. I certainly dont know enough about the prototype to say if there are any differences but looking at it, it looks like a Duchess, its got a parallel smoke box and its green? the tender does look different from other Duchesses so would it be a suitable base? Obviously the tender logo would have to change to Late Crest. i dont really want to chance my arm on Ebay by buying a second hand model but may have to if a donor cant be bought new. Dale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 27, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 27, 2015 Duchess of Sutherland has a different front end footplate to City of Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Duchess of Sutherland has a different front end footplate to City of Bristol ... see the first two pictures on this page - http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam-locomotives/lms-coronation-non-streamlined-2.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Quite a few differences: front running plate, lower front of smoke deflectors and tender. 6233's was never streamlined so has a different cutaway at the front, handrail on the rear side panels, rear running steps and side panels finish flush with the rear panel, which has three footsteps up each side insteadof a ladder. In LMS / BR days it also had a single tank filler and two vent pipes on the rear platform. Currently, this tender is heavily modified in that area and I don't know what has been reproduced. And the engine did not have a crest above the nameplate in LMS and BR days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 Cheers gents, definitely not an option then. The two pics make that abundantly clear. D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Unless you have issues with Amazon not paying hardly any tax in the UK; in which case avoid Abe at all costs. Sorry, I know this is totally OT, but what do you not like about Abebooks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwich station Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Hornby's latest City of Bradford should be ok for what you want to do body wise but I think City of Bristol was Green right to the end, so you would have to paint it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 Hornby's latest City of Bradford should be ok for what you want to do body wise but I think City of Bristol was Green right to the end, so you would have to paint it. Alas my painting skill's are not up to the job so for now, i think this idea will be confined to the back burner. many thanks for the replies folks. D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 The best option might be to find a secondhand City of Chester or City of Sheffield and to renumber that. Chester is a while ago, while Sheffield was a couple of years ago, but both are China models. Sheffield had the revised trailing truck which looks better. There was a spare body for 46249 on eBay a few months ago but it went before I could bid for it, Hope that helps. Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9430 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 City of Sheffield was a non streamliner and so had full footplating therefore would require this to be cut away. Regards, 9430. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Absolutely correct, my apologies for writing without thinking! City of Chester is available quite regularly secondhand. Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScRSG Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Absolutely correct, my apologies for writing without thinking! City of Chester is available quite regularly secondhand. Iain 46239 is the only full smokebox, split footplate, late crest Duchess that Hornby have produced, all the others are Red! Bare in mind that City of Chester has the older, swinging pony truck chassis, I personally prefer the later version with the fixed pony truck, but you can't get a green one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9430 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 46239 is the only full smokebox, split footplate, late crest Duchess that Hornby have produced, all the others are Red! Bare in mind that City of Chester has the older, swinging pony truck chassis, I personally prefer the later version with the fixed pony truck, but you can't get a green one! You could always fit a Comet/Wizard rear truck and frame conversion. 9430. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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