Christleton Junction - 1986 - Gateway to North Wales

[St Enodoc]

15 hours ago, 61656 said:

A 5’ radius (1500mm to a proper engineer)

1524mm to proper proper engineers...

[61656]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

1524mm to proper proper engineers...

Second time this week that I’ve tied my own shoelaces together…

[5BarVT]

Failed attempt to quote!

Edited January 20 by 5BarVT

[5BarVT]

13 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

On 19/01/2024 at 15:56, 61656 said:

A 5’ radius (1500mm to a proper engineer)

1524mm to proper proper engineers...

Which makes me a proper-ish proper engineer as the dimension on the plan is 1520mm.

And any more significant figures than 3 would be a false claim to accuracy!

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Which makes me a proper-ish proper engineer as the dimension on the plan is 1520mm.

And any more significant figures than 3 would be a false claim to accuracy!

Paul.

I'll let our PW colleagues continue this conversation...

[Fishplate]

6 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I'll let our PW colleagues continue this conversation...

 

Well, challenge accepted: full size Pway (12" :1ft scale) - Design to 1mm.

 

Modern installation techniques mean that, whilst there are installation tolerances, we frequently see installation at between 1 - 5mm  to design position, both horizontally and vertically. Noting that the post installation surveys also have survey tolerances.

 

When I first started (mid 70's), the general rule (given the equipment used then) was:

 

Design to the nearest millimetre (log books only recently replaced with calculators, still hand written calcs)

Set out to the nearest 5mm (theodolite straights, with wooden pegs and nails setting out the track geometry, or offsets from the adjacent track)

Install within 10mm, then final line and level

 

Hope that helps.

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Fishplate said:

 

Well, challenge accepted: full size Pway (12" :1ft scale) - Design to 1mm.

 

Modern installation techniques mean that, whilst there are installation tolerances, we frequently see installation at between 1 - 5mm  to design position, both horizontally and vertically. Noting that the post installation surveys also have survey tolerances.

 

When I first started (mid 70's), the general rule (given the equipment used then) was:

 

Design to the nearest millimetre (log books only recently replaced with calculators, still hand written calcs)

Set out to the nearest 5mm (theodolite straights, with wooden pegs and nails setting out the track geometry, or offsets from the adjacent track)

Install within 10mm, then final line and level

 

Hope that helps.

 

It does. I was actually thinking, specifically, of track gauge rather than alignment.

[Fishplate]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I was actually thinking, specifically, of track gauge rather than alignment.

 

Ok. 4ft 8.5inches = 1435mm.

 

Modified at the end of steam to 1432mm in plain line and S&C.

 

Now back to 1435mm, with some cases of 1438mm. And designed transitions between various gauges when renewals are undertaken.

 

Then there are manufacturing and maintenance tolerances. . . .

 

So the absolute gauge answer is site, era and tolerance dependent.

 

Anyone doing a layout in P4, can have some more excitement 🤯.

 

With all that excitement in the day job, I'm sticking to OO 👍

[P.C.M]

On 14/01/2024 at 11:15, 61656 said:

With all the ribbed mk1s now dealt with, there’s a couple more weathering jobs I want to do before turning my focus to the track (and getting some trains running again, which I’m sorely missing). 
 

Bachmann 47 436 was one of my first acquisitions. A large logo 47 is essential, and as we’ve just been discussing, you can’t turn one down when it’s available. Unfortunately the ETH jumper is in the wrong place, and more problematic, it was banger blue until 1987. For recent joiners, I like everything to be correct for September 1986, plus or minus a month or two. 
 

Lots of 47s were in large logo blue by late 86, but not many with this style of battery box, and none with the lower ETH jumper. 
 

 

Getting ready for its new identity, the last two digits have been removed (using a plastic scraper), the ETH jumpers removed and the axle box covers painted white. My chosen loco had distinctive yellow timken covers in 86, so the white is just undercoat as the yellow would take too many coats on the black. 
 

I really do like the Bachmann 47 in this livery, I think it really captures the prototype. I’m going to try really hard not to spanner this up!

For your time period you probably have to remove the Arial I have done it on mine. Bit of a pain as you have to patch paint the roof.

 

Cheers Peter.

[61656]

3 minutes ago, P.C.M said:

For your time period you probably have to remove the Arial I have done it on mine. Bit of a pain as you have to patch paint the roof.

 

Cheers Peter.

I was wondering about that. This ‘little’ exercise is about getting a quick go over everything, I’ll (almost probably) return to things later to get the little details right. 

[61656]

7 minutes ago, Fishplate said:

 

Ok. 4ft 8.5inches = 1435mm.

 

Modified at the end of steam to 1432mm in plain line and S&C.

 

Now back to 1435mm, with some cases of 1438mm. And designed transitions between various gauges when renewals are undertaken.

 

Then there are manufacturing and maintenance tolerances. . . .

 

So the absolute gauge answer is site, era and tolerance dependent.

 

Anyone doing a layout in P4, can have some more excitement 🤯.

 

With all that excitement in the day job, I'm sticking to OO 👍

There are sections of 1432 currently the focus of some rough riding of new stock, which was designed for 1435. 3mm makes a big difference in 12”:1’ scale. 
 

Likewise I’m happy with 00. And the complete mix between measuring systems. 

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

And any more significant figures than 3 would be a false claim to accuracy!

 

32 minutes ago, Fishplate said:

Ok. 4ft 8.5inches = 1435mm.

 

Modified at the end of steam to 1432mm in plain line and S&C.

 

Now back to 1435mm, with some cases of 1438mm.

 

M&E/CE 1, S&TE 0...

[St Enodoc]

23 minutes ago, 61656 said:

There are sections of 1432 currently the focus of some rough riding of new stock, which was designed for 1435.

Won't be good for wheel and/or rail wear either.

[coronach]

I remember a story my dad told me concerning the design of complex pointwork at Leeds Central. The office was very careful in designing a pway that would take account of the tight clearances, undertaking several detailed surveys. The layout actually installed was made to fit, largely ignoring the drawings - a case of installers knowing what’s best!

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, coronach said:

I remember a story my dad told me concerning the design of complex pointwork at Leeds Central. The office was very careful in designing a pway that would take account of the tight clearances, undertaking several detailed surveys. The layout actually installed was made to fit, largely ignoring the drawings - a case of installers knowing what’s best!

Unless things end up like the re-railing job I went to at Leeds City in the mid-80s, where the first loco over a renewed crossover on the Monday morning derailed. The cause was that the points in question didn't have any check rails fitted...

[5BarVT]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

M&E/CE 1, S&TE 0...

 

9 hours ago, coronach said:

I remember a story my dad told me concerning the design of complex pointwork at Leeds Central. The office was very careful in designing a pway that would take account of the tight clearances, undertaking several detailed surveys. The layout actually installed was made to fit, largely ignoring the drawings - a case of installers knowing what’s best!

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Won't be good for wheel and/or rail wear either.

Which takes me back to my short period as a SME (signal maintenance engineer) and the newly replaced switch diamonds at Greenhill Junction.  They had been installed with the “gauge” measured across the elbow joints (i.e. not perpendicular to either set of running edges).  The result was that whenever a train ran through there was a creaking groaning sound as each wheelset passed through the elbows.

The PWME did what he could but needed a complete relay to sort it properly.

They aren’t there any more, but it was probably 25-30 years before they went.

Paul.

P.S. My techs reckoned it was about 10mm narrow to gauge at the critical point and the tolerance they had available for adjustment was only 8mm . . . !

Edited January 21 by 5BarVT
P.S.

[lincolnshiremodeller]

On 12/01/2024 at 21:50, 61656 said:

Sanding them down is a bit of a pain, but I think it’s worth the effort. Probably more important is getting the roof to be matt instead of the out of the box satin. 

Running a flat bladed scalpel across the roof cuts down on the amount of sanding required. The ribs do come away quite easily.

[lincolnshiremodeller]

On 13/01/2024 at 13:48, 61656 said:

I don’t even mind the £65 for a coach. I just wish you could buy one. If you go to any model shop it’s incredibly rare to be able to buy some 1980’s period stock, unless you want really obscure things. 
 

As far as I can work out there must be a lot of people hauling cement trucks and inspection saloons with 8 car DC EMUs 

 

The Hornby class 31 is a prime example of this. Its a great model that runs exceptionally well, but trying to buy one in a BR blue or sector livery was always overly difficult. Most of my locos are resprays of DCRail liveried examples which were heavily discounted....not surprisingly there wasn't a demand and retailers needed to move them on. Its not a surprise Accurascale have jumped in and claimed the 31, and Cavalex are doing the same with the 56 and 60. Hornby produced great models just not in the quantity or style that people wanted and  now they'll  likely loose the market altogether.

[GordonC]

11 hours ago, lincolnshiremodeller said:

 

The Hornby class 31 is a prime example of this. Its a great model that runs exceptionally well, but trying to buy one in a BR blue or sector livery was always overly difficult. Most of my locos are resprays of DCRail liveried examples which were heavily discounted....not surprisingly there wasn't a demand and retailers needed to move them on. Its not a surprise Accurascale have jumped in and claimed the 31, and Cavalex are doing the same with the 56 and 60. Hornby produced great models just not in the quantity or style that people wanted and  now they'll  likely loose the market altogether.

 

I think Hornby were too busy trying to play the long game with their tooling that they'll really have missed out on sales. Unbelievably for a tooling that must be the best part of 20 years old, we'd still not seen obvious big sellers from them - a plain BR Blue 31/4, 31413, Railfreight Large Logo without the red stripe, Intercity Mainline. The more of these you dont produce, the bigger it leaves a gap for someone else to step into ... enter Accurascale. And then also producing so many niche or obscure liveries is just daft ... they had 'bargain bin' written all over them as soon as they appeared in the catalogue!!

 

[61656]

11 hours ago, lincolnshiremodeller said:

 

The Hornby class 31 is a prime example of this. Its a great model that runs exceptionally well, but trying to buy one in a BR blue or sector livery was always overly difficult. Most of my locos are resprays of DCRail liveried examples which were heavily discounted....not surprisingly there wasn't a demand and retailers needed to move them on. Its not a surprise Accurascale have jumped in and claimed the 31, and Cavalex are doing the same with the 56 and 60. Hornby produced great models just not in the quantity or style that people wanted and  now they'll  likely loose the market altogether.

I had hoped the availability of other manufacturers blue and grey stock would wake Hornby and Bachmann up to the demand, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. All we have now is an increased number of models that are still unavailable. 
 

A good friend of mine retired recently and was going to spend a huge amount of his lump sum on some ECML 1970’s stock. Although he had the money to buy several Deltics and matching rakes of coaches, it just wasn’t possible. The opportunity has gone now as he’s decided to do other things. 
 

In 8 years since I started modelling, it’s been really rare to be able to buy things in a shop. It seems so odd that the manufacturers and retailers have decided that blue and grey isn’t worth stocking. 

[McC]

8 hours ago, 61656 said:

I had hoped the availability of other manufacturers blue and grey stock would wake Hornby and Bachmann up to the demand, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. All we have now is an increased number of models that are still unavailable. 
 

A good friend of mine retired recently and was going to spend a huge amount of his lump sum on some ECML 1970’s stock. Although he had the money to buy several Deltics and matching rakes of coaches, it just wasn’t possible. The opportunity has gone now as he’s decided to do other things. 
 

In 8 years since I started modelling, it’s been really rare to be able to buy things in a shop. It seems so odd that the manufacturers and retailers have decided that blue and grey isn’t worth stocking. 

We’ve plenty of blue locos and coaches on the way. Just takes a long time and millions of pounds to get there but once tools are done we plan to maintain stock availability annually. 

[61656]

Just now, McC said:

We’ve plenty of blue locos and coaches on the way. Just takes a long time and millions of pounds to get there but once tools are done we plan to maintain stock availability annually. 

Thank you. That’s really good to hear!

[61656]

Back to the job in hand. Before doing the track clean I thought it probably best to glue the fiddle yard track down.  It involved a bit more track alteration than I thought, but it looks a lot neater for being straight. 
 

 

The 5 lines to the left are the Crewe sidings whilst the 7 to the right are for Warrington. Warrington sidings 2-4 also have an exit to Crewe. 
 

In theory there’s space for another line, but the point geometry is prohibitive. At least until I build something!

 

Next job is to repeat it all for the 9 sidings in the Holyhead yard. 

[61656]

One of those very indulgent Christmas gifts to self is due to arrive imminently, so track cleaning has been accelerated. 
 

The whole layout has been cleaned with white spirit. It certainly shifts some dirt! 
 

 

The premise of using white spirit is based on the theory that the leading cause of poor running is oxidisation of the rails, rather than the accumulation of surface dirt. Oxidisation is accelerated by micro-arcing - when locos are making a less than perfect electrical contact. This is encouraged by any abrasive cleaner which makes the rail rougher, or by any polar cleaning liquid. Water is a good example of a polar liquid, we all know how quickly it helps to oxidise metals. White spirit is non polar so should reduce micro-arcing. 
 

I have then applied a very very fine coat of “No Ox Id - a special” which is a very fine conductive lubricant. The theory here is that although it may attract dirt, being conductive it will maintain better wheel to rail contact and therefore better running. We don’t actually want clean tracks, we just want good running. It’s a theory at least!
 

I will tell you in a few months if it has any noticeable and lasting effect, but certainly on initial application locos run very smoothly. 
 

My rule now is that nothing goes back on the track without clean wheels, a quick weather, and without tension lock couplings. We’ll see how long that lasts!

[61656]

Christleton Bluebeck long ago lost its status as a full shed with dedicated motive power allocated to it. By 1986 it was reduced to a sub shed of Crewe Diesel. Usually the overnight home to just a motley selection of class 25’s and increasingly now their replacement 31’s, along with a couple of shunters. 
 

During the day it plays host to ETH type 4s and various freight locos between turns. The reversal of trans-pennine services means it’s still a good spot to see a whole host of traction. 
 

Class 56’s were pretty rare on the North Wales coast, although they did make a brief appearance around ‘83 on the fly ash trains that were part of the A55 construction. The new Cavalex model is far too beautiful to overlook though, so they will do occasional turns on the Fiddlers Ferry to Christleton MGRs before handing over to a pair of 20’s. They may also work some of the Stanlow tanks, although pictures of them on 4 wheeled TTAs are very thin on the ground. 
 

Absolutely amazing model. And just wait until you hear it!