Cross-Country workings onto/through the GWR with SR RTR stock?

[OnTheBranchline]

Hello everyone,

 

I was just curious on if it would be possible to have some Southern Railway coach workings on my GWR layout (which is a 1923 to 1948 layout) based on the RTR coach offerings in the past few years?

 

Thank you in advance.

[The Great Bear]

I'd guess it depends on where you layout is supposed to be? My layout's on the line between Banbury and Oxford and so did have workings with the SR - Bournemouth to Birkenhead and Margate to Birkenhead, which use alternating GWR/SR stock I believe. I think the requisite stock is probably available, is in my case I think, except there's no RTR SR catering vehicle.

[olivegreen]

Agree with The Great Bear. See my PM, too!  The point about lack of suitable RTR SR (and GWR as far as I am aware) catering stock is a point I had forgotten.

[Fat Controller]

There were Portsmouth- Cardiff workings, I believe, which would presumably alternated between GWR and SR stock. There was a post-WW2 working, which might have existed pre-War; this was a dated Saturday working from the Bournemouth area to Swansea High Street. I say 'Bournemouth area', as it seemed to start from, and terminate at, stations apart from Bournemouth Central, possibly Pokesdown and Brockenhurst.

[OnTheBranchline]

Agree with The Great Bear. See my PM, too!  The point about lack of suitable RTR SR (and GWR as far as I am aware) catering stock is a point I had forgotten.

 

Catering stock I am not as concerned about because I don't think the majority of people really care about catering vehicles (if they did, then we would have had more of them by now).

Edited January 10, 2016 by OnTheBranchline

[bécasse]

Generally, the SR used specific sets for inter-railway working which had been specially built for the purpose. The SR (and LNER) used "Pullman" gangways for the corridor connection between their carriages while the GWR and LMSR used "Standard" gangways which were a different shape. The two different types of gangways could be coupled using special adaptors but it wasn't very satisfactory and so the dedicated SR sets for inter-railway working had Pullman gangways within the set but Standard gangways at the outer ends and were never used on internal SR workings.

[JZ]

I've seen a photo of Maunsell stock at Portishead in the early 1960s. I understand that these were through coaches from Bournemouth West.

[bécasse]

I've seen a photo of Maunsell stock at Portishead in the early 1960s. I understand that these were through coaches from Bournemouth West.

 

From London Waterloo (08.35 semi-fast RP) via Bournemouth West. The working involved reversals at Bournemouth West and Bath Green Park. 

[Ian J.]

Journeys from Bournemouth to the Great Western lines, if run by the GWR, would likely not have gone via the S&DJR (being a Midland / L&SWR joint operation).

 

I think either they would go:

West via Weymouth then up via Castle Cary (for South West destinations);

or

North via West Moors / Salisbury / Westbury, or East via Southampton with reverse to Redbridge, or onwards to Eastleigh then West via Romsey for routes to South Wales;

or

East to Basingstoke and Reading (for GWR routes in the North West).

 

But this is speculation on my part, as I'm short of setting eyeballs on timetables from the period.

[JZ]

From London Waterloo (08.35 semi-fast RP) via Bournemouth West. The working involved reversals at Bournemouth West and Bath Green Park. 

Not sure what year it was, but now I have a time, I will see if I can find it in my 1961 Southern Region Summer timetable.

[TheSignalEngineer]

From London Waterloo (08.35 semi-fast RP) via Bournemouth West. The working involved reversals at Bournemouth West and Bath Green Park. 

I've not spotted that working, but there were several trains through to Bristol from the S&D. One I have seen photographed had a Maunsell set behind a Stanier 3P 2-6-2T.

[bécasse]

The through working from London Waterloo to Bristol/Portishead wasn't shown as such in the public TT but was in the Carriage Working Notices. While this may have been understandable while a reversal at Bournemouth West was involved, it looked odder once the West closed and the 3-set was just detached at Central and a new loco attached to work it forward to Bath.

 

This train also called, un-advertised, at Templecombe Lower Platform, whose only advertised service was a late-evening  terminator.

[DCB]

Journeys from Bournemouth to the Great Western lines, if run by the GWR, would likely not have gone via the S&DJR (being a Midland / L&SWR joint operation).

 

I think either they would go:

West via Weymouth then up via Castle Cary (for South West destinations);

or

North via West Moors / Salisbury / Westbury, or East via Southampton with reverse to Redbridge, or onwards to Eastleigh then West via Romsey for routes to South Wales;

or

East to Basingstoke and Reading (for GWR routes in the North West).

 

But this is speculation on my part, as I'm short of setting eyeballs on timetables from the period.

The WS Beckett  GWR Train formations and Carriage workings (1931) lists  a   Birkenhead to Bournemouth West and Bournemouth West to Birkenhead service in 1931 which had alternate SR and GW stock with 9 X SR coaches to Wellington then 6 plus 2 GW to Birkenhead and 3 SR to Manchester (London Rd) presumably via Crewe which is a big chunk of GWR route mileage Basingstoke Reading Oxford Banbury, Snow Hill, Shrewsbury Chester etc. Not sure where engines changed, probably SR to Oxford.

 A Birkenhead - Margate service also ran with 8 X SR coaches to Reading then Redhill and Margate (3) Hastings (3) Ramsgate (2)  an odd train  Bk Com, 3rd, Bk 3rd, Bk 3rd. Comp, restaurant, Composite (all corridor)

There was a York to Bournemouth West service with alternate SR and LNER stock, again probably SR loco to Oxford, but then was it GW to Leicester(?) or LNER from Oxford?

From the above SR stock would be seen on the GW Bristol line from Reading to Didcot, Basingstoke and Oxford Banbury lines, Birkenhead and Crewe lines north of Banbury, The LNER to York (Doncaster - York?) and even the LMS to Manchester.

There was also a Brighton Portsmouth Salisbury Cardiff service with alternate GW and SR stock, engine changing at Salisbury(?)

 

Post war there were 2 SR Green SR powered locals each way per day from Exeter to Plymouth but this was introduced from 1939 I believe for route knowledge purposes, and SR stock on the MSWJR to Cheltenham but again not pre war.

 

Castle Cary Via Weymouth was not viable as the route is very circuitous. Bincombe Bank twice? but the Weymouth line beyond Dorchester was GWR with the SR loco shed at Dorchester so GWR Weymouth had quite a lot of SR stock in 23 to 48.

 I don't think there was any SR stock on the S and D between 23 and 48 as pre 1930 it was still the S and D joint line with blue stock etc, then LMS took control of trains and SR the infrastructure  The SR green stock was a post 48 BR innovation.

Bournemouth Basingstoke Reading Oxford services took Eastleigh locos to Oxford and Green stock to Banbury and beyond both in 23/48 and 48/66 eras.

[Brake Compo]

The Bournemouth to York/Newcastle/Bradford/Leeds workings were of course Pullman gangwayed, and thus one could use proprietary coaches.  Indeed the preserved BCK 6575 on the Bluebell was built for the Bournemouth to Bradford service & can be seen to have Pullman gangways at either end. 

[melmerby]

Generally, the SR used specific sets for inter-railway working which had been specially built for the purpose. The SR (and LNER) used "Pullman" gangways for the corridor connection between their carriages while the GWR and LMSR used "Standard" gangways which were a different shape. The two different types of gangways could be coupled using special adaptors but it wasn't very satisfactory and so the dedicated SR sets for inter-railway working had Pullman gangways within the set but Standard gangways at the outer ends and were never used on internal SR workings.

I think you will find It's not quite as straightforward as that

Some SR coaches had BS gangways specifically for inter regional workings.

 

I have pictures in books showing just such coaches.

One picture has the GWR & SR stock mixed throughout the train. (SR + GWR + SR + GWR + SR)

Some sections are only one coach

 

AFAIK The D2675 catering vehicle has BS gangways both ends.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[Nearholmer]

The Birkenhead-Margate (and several other places) trains that DCB refers to above, which, just to confuse matters varied a bit in origin and destinations over the years, were known as "Continentals", one of their purposes being to give connections for passenger travelling on by boat, used two rakes, one GWR, one SR, so the SR rake would go North one day, and come back the next.

 

For SR modellers, these trains,together with The Sunny South Express, which ran from the LMS via Addison Road, give good reason for stock of three of the big four to appear on a Brighton Line layout; the Birkenhead-Hastings portion split off at Redhill and ran via Lewes. I don't think there was a regular LNER through train, but there were excursions, and horse-box trains, via the ELL, so permitting the fourth of the four.

 

Kevin

 

PS: this is an excellent contemporary summary of through-workings, although it only covers the more "famous" ones. http://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/cross-country.html

Edited April 15, 2016 by Nearholmer

[truffy]

On 15/04/2016 at 23:23, Nearholmer said:

For SR modellers, these trains,together with The Sunny South Express, which ran from the LMS via Addison Road, give good reason for stock of three of the big four to appear on a Brighton Line layout; the Birkenhead-Hastings portion split off at Redhill and ran via Lewes. I don't think there was a regular LNER through train, but there were excursions, and horse-box trains, via the ELL, so permitting the fourth of the four.

 

Dragging up an old thread, but I was thinking of the Sunny South Express, and that it might allow me to introduce a little LMS colour to my late '30s Maunsell green collection. According to Gould's Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock:

 

Quote

In particular, the SR never supplied coaches for the 'Sunny South Express' as far as is known; it was always LMS stock. [Although, reading further, it's unclear as to whether these were original LMS stock, or Maunsell stock owned and operated by the LMS.]

 

Even though the SR didn't supply the coaching stock, would it have supplied the locomotive for the SR metals? This cigarette card suggests that it might, but you know...cigarette cards! 

[Nearholmer]

Oh, yes, SR locos from either Willesden Junction or Addison Road, I can never remember which. From what I can work out usually a 4-4-0, either an ex-LBSCR B4x (which I think is what the fag card shows) or ex-LSWR T9 which the SR moved to the Central, but then it would get a new loco on reversal at Brighton, so maybe something like an I3. The SR period, as I say, is harder to understand than the LBSCR period.

 

Depending upon where your layout is set along the route of the SSE, you can have GWR stock too, because through services from the Birkenhead or Wolverhampton operated to Brighton, Eastbourne, and at some dates Hastings.

 

BTW, where does the suggestion that the LMS used Maunsell coaches come from? Good photos of the SSE in SR, as opposed to LBSCR, days seem hard to find, but all that ive seen seem to show ex-LNWR coaches, including a colour film from 1938 that I've seen which showed rake including an ex-LNWR 12W dining car being shunted at Brighton.

 

Here's a grouping period photo showing it on the LMS, which gives an idea of the stock https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrns2672.htm

 

And another https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm3323.htm

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Nearholmer

[TheSignalEngineer]

David Jenkinson and Bob Essery's list notes for the LMS D1905 BTK that  "5517-5524 had the Guard's Lookouts and top commode handles removed for working on the Sunny South Express"

[melmerby]

Going back to the original post "SR coaches on the GWR"

How about "The Sunny Coast Express" which used variously rakes of GWR & SR stock through to Birmingham and sometimes even a Southern loco.

I don't think you can get the required carriages but in this photo the T9 (313) has been done by Hornby:

https://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhj108.htm

 

There are photos of various other types of Southern 4-4-0 on this train passing through Warwickshire

 

Such as

https://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrkd128.htm

[Nearholmer]

I think we discussed those pictures in another thread, but even on second and third viewing they are eye-openers. Believed to be trains that weren't shown in the public timetable or Bradshaw, IIRC, but probably advertised locally to encourage the holiday trade.

[melmerby]

19 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think we discussed those pictures in another thread, but even on second and third viewing they are eye-openers. Believed to be trains that weren't shown in the public timetable or Bradshaw, IIRC, but probably advertised locally to encourage the holiday trade.

Yes we did.

It means that applying "Rule 1" might actually be prototypical in some cases

 

It strikes me it is an awfully long journey from the South Coast to Birmingham in possibly non corridor trains and just a 4-4-0 in charge.

[bécasse]

Given the ex-LSWR non-corridor stock and the location, in my opinion they almost certainly depict military specials. Don't forget that the British Army occupied significant tracts of former LSWR territory and that that army moved around quite often for training purposes.

[Nearholmer]

Could well be, but IMO they could equally be the sort of cheap, locally-advertised, summer Saturday only jobs that we discussed before. Troop moves, even TA to summer camp, tended to have a great deal of luggage accommodation, although I accept that luggage accommodation levels aren’t conclusive.

[melmerby]

20 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Given the ex-LSWR non-corridor stock and the location, in my opinion they almost certainly depict military specials. Don't forget that the British Army occupied significant tracts of former LSWR territory and that that army moved around quite often for training purposes.

They are known "holiday" trains which ran between the wars between the South coast of England and Birmingham.

They more often had a GWR loco this far North and they also used GWR stock.

Here's one with Clerestory stock behind the ex-LSWR loco:

https://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrkd126.htm

 

Note this is only about 10 miles from Birmingham, hardly noted for it's military training camps.

Edited February 8, 2021 by melmerby